Layout Progress. 13x18. 7/30/2015

Andrew

Nice start. Although Atlas track is nice I am not a fan of their switches. My personal choice would be Gargraves Flex track and Ross switches.  In the lower right not sure you have enough room to surround your turn table with a roundhouse and tracks.

Planning is a fun aspect keep working it

Steve

Hi Andrew,

It sure is nice to have that amount of space. Here is a guide from Korber models on roundhouse spacing.

I also think that having the table that wide you may get annoyed reaching. You'll need hatches and have to crawl under or the over the layout creeper form MicroMark.

I think the switch at the bottom right behind the roundhouse should be move up 1 or straights. You have a tight S when a train comes off of the curve and enters the switch to the inside line.

I don't have rrt yet, so I can't help with the elevated section or fitment.

Jan;

Thank you so much for your changes!! I really like the bridge crossover that you included. I think your changes give me a lot of flexibility. This is what I have been searching for. Thank you again!

andrew. 

Jan, nice job on Andrews plan. Andrew, what size turntable are you planning? Is it a 24" or 28"? If you need a dimensional drawing of the turntable for planning, shoot me an email.

The most important lesson I learned is that a layout should have many sidings. On a real railroad, sidings make money so they are a cause for existence. Sidings come in two flavors, single and double ended and a layout should have several of both.

thanks for the complements.After a night's sleep I looked at it again.  I noticed that there was no way to reverse from a CCW direction so I added one more crossover.  I also shifted the turntable using a 1/3 O81 curve.  It rotated the TURNTABLE COMPLEX 7.5° and improved the clearances.  I also show suggested uncoupler locations.

Jan

Lots of great ideas. Nice plan!

Peter

Once you start you can't stop.  I made a few more tweaks.  There are now two continuous mainline loops to allow for running two trains without supervision. 

The yard, A/D track, and yard lead are now isolated from the main which will allow one to make up or breakdown trains without interfering.

There are three storage tracks spaced 3.5+" apart.  There is a track to service the ash pit, coaling and sanding towers parallel to the engine service track.  It is long enough that you could store MOW cars or serve as a RIP track.

Finally I added one more siding off the yard lead to store cabooses.

There was a 4.8" cut straight which I eliminated (after a long search).  I did cut one one O63 curve at 4° to better center the turntable,  I had previously used a cut O81 but the layout contains only O54 and O63 curves.

I will stop making changes.  I will stop making changes.  I will stop ...

Jan

PS.  This is the last change!

Jan;

Thank you for your hard work! I think your last design is the one I'm going with. I am truly blown away with how you made my starting design into a real good looking plan. Thank you for that. 

Bigboy: I took the reach into consideration. I'm still young (38), and I have a 5 year old that will be climbing for me if needed. 

Andrew

You are most welcome!  Glad I could contribute.  I enjoyed the problem and the challenges.  Your river scene is straight out of Harper's Ferry.  Look it up. 

You might want to keep the scenery to a minimum right now to kid-proof the layout.  You can get lots of ideas if you wander about the Pittsburgh area.  How high are you going to make the layout?  There have been several discussions on this Forum. 

To give your 5 year old a place to step I moved the caboose track.  It's not as useful in this location.

Do your best to ensure that the track in the hard to reach areas is kinkless, smooth, and level across the rails to minimize the chance of derailing.

Bobby makes a point that if you like operations then you need industries and sidings.  You are fortunate you have places for both.  If you are going to have any operating cars put them in the accessible corners on a spur off the curve.  Put a button at the edge so your son can run them.  Atlas makes a set of operating rails for their track.

here's the last and final iteration (fingers crossed).

Jan

PS.  Post pictures and you make progress.

Jan;

I'm really liking the layout look and feel. I will have a lot of areas to build little scene's and run some trains with my boys. Now the hard part, building the layout!

I will have access to 3 of the 4 sides, because of how it will sit in my basement. The area is unfinished so I can get around it somewhat. The only side I wont be able to get to is the left side, but there is only 1 track there so hopefully, I can keep the track nice and even there.

I will probably need to build some of the track areas in stages, as I will need to buy some additional track to complete it as designed.

Thank you again for your input and design work.

The  siding on the lower left seems useless to me.Just MHO.

I would use #5 switches for the crossovers. This will give a much smoother ride and you have room.

Is there enough additional room to allow you to use 072 on the mainline?

That area will be a small industrial area. 

I don't have the room for O72, although I wish I did. I'll look into using the #5 switch. I'm not very familiar with them. 

Andrew

Actually Andrew, you DO have room for an O-72 mainline.  As many have noted in this forum that if you have the room for a minimum O-72 layout your should build one.  The reason is that some day you may want to own and operate a large, minimum O-72 engine.  Also, o-scale just looks better running on bigger curves.  With that in mind I modified a version of my twisted, folded dogbone layout plan to fit your 18x14' room.   I'm not sure where your door is and probably could tweak to accommodate it.   Let me know if this layout interest you.  It's designed for command control so that trains will maintain speed on the ~2.5% crossover grade.  Double main line allows for multiple trains running in opposite directions which looks real cool as they pass each other.

Obsidian,

I like your track plan and design. Thank you for your suggestion. My only concern is the lack of an area to place a city. I suppose I could do that on the right side, in front of the staging sidings. Your plan gives me something to think about since I havent begun the building of the table as of yet. I also want a river crossing, which in this design seems difficult to find an open area to do that. Any suggestions?

Andrew

Andrew,

Glad you like what I've done so far.  There are plenty of opportunities for mountain scenery when you do a twisted dog bone.  For suggestion I added a river coming out of a mountain valley.  I also put in a city instead of a yard on the left.  I'd run a couple of spurs into town to support various industries.   I put a passenger station along the straightaway in front of town.  The upper line crosses the lower with a tunnel.  I reversed the turntable so you look into the round house (got this idea from Laidoffsick who built a variation of my design).   Putting the yard outside the loops allows for a a lead off the main and pretty long storage sidings.  I'm a big fan of Nick's Pittsburgh Industrial layout and I think he'll agree that bigger mainline curves are better (note his Horse shoe curve extension).  Let me know what you think.

Wow. That looks really cool too, but it looks like I will lose the crossovers to have a river crossing scene. I really liked that feature in your original plan. Track planning is a for sure headache. I'm going to show this plan to my brother who is also looking for a track plan to build on. 

Im not not really sure that I will ever buy an engine that requires an O72 size turn. The costs of those are in the $1,200.00 plus range?

Andrew, I can add at least a couple of crossovers.  This last plan was just to see if I was "on track" in terms of your desired scenery features.  If I am I'll add crossovers so a train can be assembled in the yard by a switcher then the a engine from the round house can switch over and pick up its consist from the yard.  I need to add a siding for the switcher off the yard lead.  Also, I might be able to add a third elevated line running with O-42 curves for smaller engines.  Let me know what operational features/industries you want.

I think double mainlines are more prototypical.  However, I can respect your plans wide variety of routes.  Also, some are not comfortable with plans where they can't reach all of the track.  One of the things I really like about O-scale is its reliability and low derail incidents.  There are parts of my layout I use a reach tool (like the trash guys use).  I'd make the upper right corner a popup hatch for access.

My biggest engine is a MTH RailKing Allegheny which will run on O-31 but it looks so much better on O-72.  I've seen Premier PS-2 Allegheny's on Ebay go for as little as $800.  I too thought I'd never be able to afford much less operate large scale steam engines but that was before I discovered Ebay and Trainz.  Since buying a couple of Northerns (4-8-4's) which require a min radius of O-54 I've put my layout on a diet of O-54 curves and above.   My original layout resembled your original plan with lots of tight O-42 some O-31 and O-54.  Now I have only 3 pieces of O-42 left, the rest is O-54 and larger.  And my main train room is just 11x13!   Point is I've designed a handful of O-scale railroaders layouts and none have regretted having a min O-72 mainline.

We all have our favorite aspects of the hobby.  For some its scenery, others collecting, wiring, operating, but for me, track planning.  So thanks for considering my help with your plan.  Check out this layout that I planned for a club mate who tore down his tight curved layout to build this one.  It's essentially a reversed longer version of the layout I planned for you.  Let me know what you think. 

I agree with Obsidian on trying to get the largest curves for the reasons he stated, looks and operations.

The problem I see is that traveling from the turntable to the yard fouls both mainlines.  If there was away to elevate the mainlines over the yard and turntable tracks would solve this problem.  Moving the switch to the yard to the top of the curve one can descend while the main climbs.  With a net of 14 feet with 6 inches of clearance would give you a 3.6% grade.  Okay for traction tires but not others.

Maybe if you entered the yard from the inside track and passed under the mains?

You should also have a straight lead into the turntable.  This is an easy fix.

Jan

OK, version 3 (c).  I've taken into account Jan's suggestion and elevated the turntable and yard to a plateau 7" above main table (Olive/tan area).  This puts the turntable and yard off one switch on the blue line at top of mountain grade.  This way an engine can be deployed from roundhouse and collect its consist without fouling the main.  Max grade on either line now is a manageable 2.7%.  Double crossovers were added in front of passenger station in town.  I'll post a 3D render this evening.  Only thing missing now is some kind of reverse loop or direct access to yard from the Red line.  To get an idea what it would look like to have turntable and yard up on plateau, look at the coal mine area on my club mates Sleepy Hollow layout in the video of my previous post. 

The city would come alive with a trolley line around downtown streets (ala Nick's PIR Pittsburg layout).  Some heavy industry could reside next to turntable lead.  I'm particularly pleased with the long yard lead.  Now two trains could be running continuously on the mains while a third is assembled.  

Layout objectives:

• 18x14 area, open on one side
• Nearly 150' of double mainline
• Max 2.7% grade
• Scenic river crossing
• Area for turntable
• Large yard with long lead and direct access to turntable without fouling main
• No duck unders
• Relatively short tunnel
• Spurs for industry in city
• Minimum O-72
• Best operated with command control
• Comfortable (depending on your girth) 30" isle.

Andrew, let me know what you think.  And what if any more design objectives you have.  

I really like the changes you made. The crossovers give me the option to move trains to different tracks for running. The yard gives me a place to store cars and build trains. I would like a few sidings to be able to have some industry like a rock quarry and beer brewery. I like the addition of the passenger station too. The list you have is very much my needs list. I have always been into running trains, but I want to branch out with more scenery. I am also going to be using MTH Command system for the 1st time with this layout. 

Im I anxious to see the 3d view of the layout as I am having trouble "seeing" how the yard lead and turntable lead will fit. 

Andrew

Mr. Obsidian: You are definitely a track planning guru! Love your YouTube channel. 

Andrew,

As promised, here are some 3D renders of the layout from RR-Track v.4   I also added a siding off of the blue line near downtown for a brewery.  I hope you can see that the turntable plateau will slope gently down to edge of mainline as it descends around and into a tunnel.  The mountains could but shouldn't have tunnels since I like to keep an eye on the trains.  

I've used DCS with layouts with grade separated crossings and it works very well.   MTH engines do a real good job maintaining set speed.  Note that almost all switches are within reach.  So if you don't immediately wire switches to a AIU you'll still be able to manually throw switches.  Let me know what you think.

Terrence,

Thanks for the compliment and I'm glad you like my YouTube channel.  Please subscribe.  Next video will be all modern freight.

I don't think that you have enough room to take a large engine from the turntable without having to foul the main. 

Look at moving the turntable lead to just before the start of the yard ladder.  This means crossing the mains on a bridge.  You can use the extra distance to increase the vertical separation between levels.

Also flop the turntable and the storage tracks.  This could give you room for the appropriate engine service facilities.

Jan

Aligned streets of city to 45 degrees to match main passing station.  Turntable lead moved.  Now up to a 30" engine can get onto yard lead from turntable without fouling main.  Rather not swap turntable/service tracks since currently layout operator/visitors will look into roundhouse front not back.  Got this tip from Laidoffsick and I agree it looks better even if it doesn't operate as prototypical.  03patines has the same arrangement within a grade curve on his layout too (see video of his AWESOME UP Big Boy):

That turntable looks amazing in 03pantines video. I had never considered a turntable for my planned layout. Very interesting. Who makes the turntable? Is the entire motorized unit one piece? Does it require a separate controller?

Obsidian: is it really possible that the design you prepared for Andrew could be "tweaked" to fit into the space in my train room? I will jump over to that thread to discuss this further.

Obsidian,

I see how the track plan runs around the turntable. The 3D images helped with that, thank you. I think the current version of the track plan is great. The thing I liked about my initial plan was the ability to run trains in different directions and this plan seems to do the same. when I was a kid, simple loops worked fine. Now, I want more, and this plan seems to give me that. I still like the previous plan, but I like having the larger radius curves. You mentioned about having an elevated track that would have O42 curves, can you add that to the mix. I'm curious to see how it would look.

thank you!

Andrew

Andrew, glad you like the plan.  I learn something new each design I create.  This plan was done with the MTH Realtrax track library for RR-Track.  I know you want to use Atlas and that's great since Realtrax switch selections are limited.  The owner of the Sleepy Hollow layout I designed gave me a Lionel Fastrack library since that's what track system he chose to use.   I really should work with the same track system you plan to use in order to proceed with the plan.  Plus it would help to know the diameter of the turntable you'd like.  A third,  O-54/42 spur line would probably require an elevated duck under bridge across the isle at some point.   I'm excited to see this plan built and operated.  Let me know how you want to proceed.

I think the minimum turntable would be 24". Can you add the spur line just to see it? Having a bridge go across the open space would be a cool feature I think. I do plan on using the Atlas track, as I have a small stash of that track.

Aligning the city to 45 deg made it nice.  Now how about "Superstreets" and a PCC car in the city?

Version F.  Why flip train directions manually when they can do it themselves?  The answer is a reverse loop (or two).  I've added a O-42 reverse loop at the end of the yard as well as a O-54 off the spur around the city.  Now with some clever switching, any train can run either direction on the main lines. The 30" turntable will swap a O-72 engine.  Sure there will be some close calls clearing the mains but that's all part of the fun, right?  There is even a spur line for Red line trains to enter the back of the yard by crossing a creek valley.  

I looked adding a third level with a bridge across the isle but it would require ducking and every layout design discussion I've read says to avoid ducking.  The other thing about a elevated level is it starts to obscure levels below with supports and bridges that don't necessarily make railroading sense.  This lastest plan version maximizes route and curve variety in the space available.  There are lots of realistic scenery venues with bridges over rivers and streams.  Trains move from plateaus up the side of valleys and through tunnels.  In fact, a southwest or mountain scenery setting would work.

Note that there are some gaps in the track where I've inserted O-72 switches off O-82 curves.  This is because the MTH Realtrax doesn't have a O-82 switch.  I think Atlas does have larger curve switches.  I'm not sure since I don't have the Atlas RR-Track library.

I took a stab at converting Obsidian's plan to Atlas track.  All curves are O72 or O81.  All switches are O72 either full-sized or cut-off.  Atlas does not have an O81 switch.  One whould have to use their #5 but it is too long.  In the cut-off switch the curved leg is shortened by 3 degrees.  This allows one to maintain the Atlas 4.5 inch track spacing when one constructs a crossover.  The height where the mainlines cross is 7 inch.

I did extend the slope on the yard lead to the point where the track splits off for the turntable.  The turntable is the Atlas table.  There is a variation to the turntable lead that I will try out shortly.

You mentioned  that you already have a stash of Atlas track.  These plans do use any curves smaller than O72.  And there are not many straights either!

Jan

PS.  I noticed that I've used O54 short switches in the yard ladder.  I'll correct this later.

Hese's the change I mentioned above.

The turntable is accessed from the yard ladder via a bridge over the mains. 

Jan

Wow, I can't believe where my track plan has gone. Simply amazing. I like the reversing loop through the city. Will the reversing loop around the yard make the last siding or 2 too short to be of any real use? I could live without the loop on the yard if it makes more sense to drop it for better use of the space. 

Andrew,  now seeing the plan in Atlas I'd forgo the reverse loop around the yard.  The O-54 reverse loop around the city will allow you to turn trains to run in any direction on the mains.  I have about 170' of dual track mainline which allows me to run two 15-20(scale freight) car trains on the same line (same speed) comfortably.  So with your plan you should be able to run an express passenger on the Red line and a couple of freights on the blue.  Occasionally, one of the freights will stop and back down the yard lead.  Swap engines/reconfigure consist and roll out again.  So operationally, you could be juggling 3 trains on the mainline plus a switcher in the yard.  I think that's plenty and you won't miss having a third line.  I like the idea of super streets or a streetcar in the city to add more independent action.  Also, you've got a lot of scenery to do.

So all you need to do now is create a OGR layout build topic and buy some 2x4's and start bench work. Real life has a nasty habit of robbing you of time and space for a layout.  Thanks Jan for converting plan to Atlas.

I've added the reverse loop around the city.  I managed to use O63 curves.  To center all 3 turns I had to shift the reverse track slightly using a pair of 1/3 O63 curves (7.5°. 

I added a fourth siding to the yard to gain more storage since the engine service/turntable access track doesn't leave much room for that.  I also added a siding to yard lead which will allow a switcher to get to enter end of the arrival/departure track and to allow the engine to connect to the front of the departing train.

A comment on operations is the any train that leaves the yard during its journey around the layout must back up sometime to return to the yard.  The prior layout could be reached from either direction.

Access to the turntable area is going to be difficult, and a hatch might be the solution. 

You can use any O54 switches for the center 3 sidings in the yard and for industrial sidings.  Any large engine can transverse the through (straight) path without concern of derailing. 

Jan