Low voltage readings on both sides of ZW transformer with 2 PH180s, when set to 14 volts. (Good at 20 volts)

To be clear you're using a ZWC fed by 2x 180W Powerhouses?  The ZW is the postwar with internal transformer.

What kind of multimeter?  The sawtooth output of the ZW-C will confuse most inexpensive meters.

Put an 18V bulb on each of the ZW-C outputs and then see what really happens to the outputs under the conditions you describe.

Also, if you are looking at the numbers on the handles of the ZWC, they mean nothing, the voltage out will never match the number that lines up with the line.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

What kind of multimeter? The sawtooth output of the ZW-C will confuse most inexpensive meters.

Put an 18V bulb on each of the ZW-C outputs and then see what really happens to the outputs under the conditions you describe.

So does that explain why at full open it is closer to what it should be?
Because at full open the wave is much closer to what it should be?

What is an 18 volt bulb, and how do I put one on each output?
Do I connect it to both terminals, on top of the track connections?

I'm suggesting just connect an 18V bulb to each output and then do some experiments with the handles.  I don't know what you're seeing, obviously some of this stuff is a lot easier to troubleshoot in person.

Disconnect the transformer from any other connection, track, etc.  We just want to see the operation without any external loads on it.

Would a flash light bulb work, and can I do it, one output at a time?
I assume you mean to wire up the bulb and connect it to the Hot and Neutral posts, yes?
Then take a multimeter reading?

Most flashlight bulbs are rated for lower than 18volts and will quickly burn out at 18Volts. If you don't have a spare 18V bulb laying around, but have lighted passenger cars or caboose, you could use one of those.  Take a short piece of track that's not connected to your layout and wire it's Hot and Common to one set of ZWC outputs.  Put the lighted car on that track, then measure the voltage across the terminals connected to the test track.

@SteveH posted:

Most flashlight bulbs are rated for lower than 18volts and will quickly burn out at 18Volts. If you don't have a spare 18V bulb laying around, but have lighted passenger cars or caboose, you could use one of those.  Take a short piece of track that's not connected to your layout and wire it's Hot and Common to one set of ZWC outputs.  Put the lighted car on that track, then measure the voltage across the terminals connected to the test track.

Thanks Steve
That is clear to me.

@SteveH posted:

Put the lighted car on that track, then measure the voltage across the terminals connected to the test track.

I wasn't suggesting he measure voltage, I wanted to "measure" just with bulb intensity.  The bulbs are excellent at extracting the RMS voltage from a sawtooth, the meter not so much.  The object of the exercise was to have two bulbs (or lighted cars), one on each output of the transformer.  Then you can manipulate the two handles and see if one affects the other or we're just having issues actually measuring the voltage.

@RWL posted:

Thanks Steve
That is clear to me.

@SteveH posted:

Most flashlight bulbs are rated for lower than 18volts and will quickly burn out at 18Volts. If you don't have a spare 18V bulb laying around, but have lighted passenger cars or caboose, you could use one of those.  Take a short piece of track that's not connected to your layout and wire it's Hot and Common to one set of ZWC outputs.  Put the lighted car on that track, then measure the voltage across the terminals connected to the test track.

OK, I took a 29" piece of Ross track and placed one of my Pennsylvania Railroad Madison cars on it.
I disconnected the leads from the D output, and connected alligator clips between the Bottom Hot terminal and the center rail,
And between the Top Neutral terminal and the outer rail.

At 14 volts on the ZW, my meter read 8.5 ish volts.
I slowly moved the ZW handle until the meter read 14 volts, and the handle was at 18 volts.
Both are much closer than they were.

I misunderstood John's request.  If you have more alligator clips, you can skip the track altogether by connecting the clips directly to the center roller and axle.  I now believe John is suggesting using two identical cars/bulbs to compare bulb brightness on two transformer outputs to see if the bulb intensity matches what the handle position indicates.  I suspect that you may now be reading a higher meter voltage with the track and car because of the increased resistance/reactance in the additional circuitry attached to the transformer.  This would have the effect of loading/smearing the ZWC chopped sine waveform to make the meter read higher.  Maybe another way to test would be with a conventional loco on your track, looking for steady speed changes corresponding to changing throttle position.

That Steve, and also see if one handle affects the other output.

I think this is meter measurement issues.  The lighted car should not affect the real voltage reading.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think this is meter measurement issues.  The lighted car should not affect the real voltage reading.

I tend to agree, especially since my Lion Chief Berkshire runs just fine when the transformer is set to 14 volts, even though the meter reads under 4 volts.
So, based on comments above, are you thinking that the transformer does something to the sine wave that the meter can't read?
It reads other things just fine.
I get the full 18+ volts when reading the brick output, at the brick, and its outputs at the transformer, which is after several terminal blocks, the PPDT power switch, and SPST track switch.
It also reads just at 18 volts at the track, when set to direct from the brick.

I can relate to what John is saying. I am not an electrician or an engineer, I had analog volt meters on my layout to allow me to  balance voltage when going from a block powered by Powermaster #1, to a block powered by Powermaster #2 when running conventional trains. That worked great for what I wanted to do.

When I checked the voltage with my digital meter other than at maximumum and minimum voltage the readings of the two types of meters were drastically different, l would say yes the transformer does something to the sinewave that your meter can't read.

I don't always understand what John has said but I found l can pretty much take it to the bank.

Ray

The brick puts out a pure sine wave being a plain set of transformer coils.  The ZW-C puts out a waveform that looks like this.  This is the ZW-C fed by a PH180 brick at half throttle with a 2 ohm load, about 4 amps of load.  That waveform drives the digital meters nuts.

John, thank you for showing what the ZWC output wave looks like.  Would you agree that what this controller essentially does, is turn on for some portion of each positive and negative half of the 60Hz input cycle, keeping the Peak input and output voltages essentially the same (disregarding the turn on spikes)?

In the image shown, the ZWC appears to turn on and off for half the time duration of the original wave form, which a locomotive motor would equate to ~10 volts, same as an inductive analog voltmeter would?  Whereas inexpensive digital meters, don't register the RMS (similar to average) voltage accurately.  Would you agree these are correct statements?

Virtually all of the chopped waveform transformers work in a similar fashion, they just turn on the waveform for part of the cycle.  Some are uglier than others, for instance the Lionel CW-80.  Below you see why the CW-80 is such a problematic power supply for many electronics packages.

Lionel CW-80 Half Throttle

Adding a load cuts down on the spikes, but doesn't really eliminate them.

Lionel CW-80 Half Throttle, 2A Load

The Z-1000 reads the way you would expect.
I turned the lever until the multimeter read 14 volts, and it is approx. where I would expect it to be.
In the pic below, the black arrow is at 14 volts.

Roger, have your transformer voltage questions been answered to your satisfaction?

@SteveH posted:

Roger, have your transformer voltage questions been answered to your satisfaction?

I think so. It seems that the ZWC only reads correctly at full voltage, and that it is fine at the other settings, even though the readings are completely bogus.
My locos seem to run fine.

I still don't quite understand why the ZWC reads so wonky at under 18 volts when the Z1000 seems to read fine.
I just brought it up to 14 volts on the track and it is approx where I would expect it to be.

Since

@RWL posted:

I think so. It seems that the ZWC only reads correctly at full voltage, and that it is fine at the other settings, even though the readings are completely bogus.
My locos seem to run fine.

I still don't quite understand why the ZWC reads so wonky at under 18 volts when the Z1000 seems to read fine.
I just brought it up to 14 volts on the track and it is approx where I would expect it to be.

Since I don't have a Z1000 to check on my oscilloscope, I'd guess it measures differently on your meter, maybe because it chops up the incoming 60Hz sine wave differently from the ZWC.  But as you say, the important thing is that your locos run fine.  Thanks for reporting back.  I'm glad all is well.

It's been awhile but meters can have diodes that bleed off the peak voltage and simply are unreliable. The bulbs are a real load and cant really be tricked. Hope this helps.