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This is an evaluation of the 4th iteration of the Santa Fe diesel engine and my first foray into examining this beta product. I was looking forward to receiving this engine with the hopes it could be used on my children’s layout without fear that it could be easily broken nor incur a high loss to me if it was damaged in child’s play. The product was not purchased in the store but rather was shipped via USPS, therefore it has undergone some potentially rough handling.

Conclusion: It literally does not run because of a broken wheel on rear truck. This engine was obviously not tested at the Menards manufacturing facility nor visually inspected before shipment. The broken wheel was not the result of improper packaging.

Screenshot 2022-01-22 151403

Details:
1. Packaging and taking product out of the box –No loose screws or parts in box. No crushed areas of box. Well packaged and protected.
2. Initial Inspection:
a. Top-side Appearance – Matte colors crisp; no obvious painting defects; appealing for children and for those seeing product on a shelf. (Accuracy of Santa Fe colors and finish probably not a factor for the target purchasers of engine.) [In other reviews, I note people are bothered by the shiny trucks, but I don’t see this as a negative factor for first-time train buyers.] No loose parts on top.
b. Underside
i. Couplers don’t work well; thumbtacks very loose and may break off. Considerable strength needed to open knuckle.
ii. Totally loose wheel off axle in rear truck! No way to press fit back on.
iii. Other wheels on rear truck do not even align (Calipers not needed to see this)

Drawing2
iv. There is an unmarked switch with purpose totally unknown
Based on the above observations alone, this engine should not have been shipped out as the most trivial quality control should have caught these defects.
c. Instructions-- There are no quick-start instructions in the box or pointers to a web site I can go for instructions.
3. Operating:
a. Set-up – I noticed the screw immediately fell out of the remote while putting in the batteries. (There should be a closing mechanism for the battery compartment where this will not happen)
b. Sounds – Excellent volume, period of bell is too fast; horn is very toy-like and could benefit by having a decay. Crew talk is the best feature.
c. Lighting – Right number board lighting weak; no lighting on left side board
d. Motion – Engine immediate derails because of loose wheel mentioned above.
Evaluation halted!! Will try to return non-operative engine back to Menards!!

I was obviously very disappointed!1!

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Last edited by Bruce Brown
Original Post

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@SteveH posted:

I'm really sorry for your disappointing experience.  I hope that one was a fluke.

Steve,

Yes. I drew the "short straw" from the shipping inventory. Menards return policy is to take the product back to the store which will be difficult living 1,000 miles away from Eau Claire. I've written to customer service to see how they will handle.

Based on previous reviews here, odds are that you will receive a working engine.

Bruce's pictures sure look like manufacturing issues.  This is no consolation but just a comment on the state of shipments and the non sensical events that can and do happen.  I have both bought and sold train items that had no to minimal external box damage (at least according to the receiver in that situation). In spite of this, the items have had significant damage. Einstein and Yoda could not explain the physics involved. 

Today I have an example the reverse can happen- a box can look terrible and the item survives. My Beta 3.5 showed up yesterday from the USPS and here is the box.  I figured it was cooked but in spite of this appearance, it survived and appears to run well after 15 minutes around the layout.  It pulled 10 cars easily- still has the jack rabbit start which others have noted (similar to my Williams diesels). 

External shipper box - I thought what can survive this?

102_7859

Internal box containing the engine- guess what corner was next to the shipper damage?

102_7860

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Here's my report on the Beta 3.5

Roy Yost’s test of Menards Beta 3.5 Santa Fe diesel loco  2/3/2022



First off, let me say thank you for replacing my poorly built Beta 3.1 with this Beta 3.5. It cost me about $28 to ship the 3.1 back to you, but it could have been worth it. Let me explain.

The good:

The loco came to me in fine condition. The packaging materials are doing their job.

The firmware is working well. Speeding the loco, slowing the loco, and reversing the loco were smooth. I would still prefer the first speed step to be slower than it is. I run the loco at about 8 volts of track power. I like to run at medium and slow speeds.

The loco body ran smoothly and without all the shimmying and shaking of the 3.1 model. Both wheels on one axle are pressed on crooked and that truck did a mild hunting/yawing while running, but the loco body seemed to run true. More on this later.

The body mounting bolts were installed with reasonable force, not like the excessive force used on my 3.1.



The bad:

I still feel strongly that the gears press fit onto steel axles must be made of metal and not plastic. Two plastic gears must be changed to metal if the loco is to have a long and happy life. These are the driven worm wheel gears and the drive gear for the external idler gears. Due to the different expansion rates of the steel axle and the plastic gears, the gears that are press fit onto steel shafts will eventually split and will rotate/slip on the shaft. Since it seems unlikely that this will actually happen, I may have to lower my expectations. But I still feel that these plastic gears will come back to bite Menards eventually. For me, if these gears get into production, that will be a deal breaker and would prevent me from purchasing a production model.

The couplers still sit a bit lower than standard. The “thumbtacks” on the couplers were not fully riveted and flopped around. The rear coupler was floppy, so I applied the same fix of coating the threads with fingernail polish to hold them and tightening the mounting screw almost tight.

The two non- traction tire wheels on the rear truck were both pressed on crooked. Running the loco upside down, they really looked bad. Fortunately they did not affect the loco operation as badly as it looked like they should. Maybe because they did not have tires, maybe because they were not gauged too wide? I tried to straighten the worst one, but the pressure required was greater than I was comfortable applying. I am wondering if the non-traction tire wheels are made with the center holes too small, so they must be pressed on with excessive force. There still seems to be no manufacturing fixtures to assure that the wheels are pressed on straight and to the proper gauge.

While there was grease on the external idler gears, there was no grease whatsoever on the brass worm gears on the motors.  I do not know the various friction properties of brass and Nylon, but worm gears slide in operation and they require grease, in my opinion.



The really ugly:

I ran the loco on a freight train on my layout at medium/slow speed for about 45 minutes one night. The track is O-54 with no switches. The cars were mostly old wooden/metal kits from the 40’s and 50’s, all equipped with modern trucks made by Atlas. Everything ran smoothly and no odd noise or excessive heat was observed.

Here’s where it gets strange.

The next morning, I fired up the track at 8 volts again. I happened to be looking at the loco when I turned the remote throttle. There was a brief flash of light inside the cab, just for an instant. It was a cold white flash, like an LED and not a yellow flash like a spark. All the lights worked as they should. All the sounds worked like they should. But the loco would not move.

Taking the loco to the work bench for some tests revealed some surprises.

Examining the circuit board with a magnifying glass revealed no cold solder joints, no non-soldered solder joints, no burn marks, no loose components, no burnt components, no loose plugs, nothing. Everything looked good.

Unplugging the motor plug and running the motors on DC, the motors did not draw excessive current. I did not record the actual current, but it was about  90% of the current drawn by similar Williams motors that I tested at the same time.

This is where it really gets strange. I plugged an incandescent light bulb into the socket where the motor plug goes, so the board was only powering the bulb, not the motors. The bulb was off when the remote was in neutral position, and lit up when turning the throttle either forward or reverse. It seems as if the board is working, but will not handle the current of the motors – but these motors are not drawing excessive current. Very strange.

Conclusion:

So now my roster has a Beta 1 that is almost unusable because of the abrupt starts and stops. The roster also has a Beta 3.5 that does not run at all.

I have to admit that I am losing faith in the product. I cannot find the receipt for the Beta 1, but the Beta 3.1 was $201.77 and shipping it back was $28, so I am roughly $400 in the hole with nothing to show for it. I could put reverse units or bridge rectifiers in the locos and run them until the gears fail – and they will. When that happens, I could retrofit the locos with Williams motors and drive blocks, but that seems like a lot of work and additional expense.

I thought being a Beta tester would be fun, and I still like doing it, but I did not realize that it would be so expensive.

Regards

Roy Yost from the west coast

Shipping back my defective 3.5 back to Menards, a couple of weeks ago, cost me $17. The replacement one has just been shipped to me. I'll give an updated report as soon as it arrives. What possibly could go wrong with this new one?

Reading everyone's reviews it was never clear to me what improvements were actually made in the 3.0 and 3.5 releases compared to 2.0.  While Beta's 1 and 2 were met with a good deal of interest and excitement, it seems to me the subsequent releases have resulted in several negative comments and experiences, including my own. So unless Menards makes substantial changes in this engine design and manufacturing (misaligned/bent wheels, jump starts, horn quality, bad couplers, polymer drive components, truck color, etc) I don't see the benefit to their design team releasing a another tranche of products other than they get about $35,000 in sales revenue!! Nor do I see the need for reviewers to shell out out $175 of their own money when the same design and manufacturing issues seem to persist. Wouldn't Menards get substantially the same feedback by offering free engines to, say, 5 to 10 well-known evaluators like an Eric Siegel, Bob Keller or a few selected people in this forum?

As far as I can tell, here are the changes:

Beta 1 had the jump start/stop issues and plastic worm gears on the motors and packaging damage to the paint.

I did not get a Beta 2

Beta 3.1 had much improved firmware for the start/stop, and a brass worm gear on the motors only. But... the workmanship suffered and the wobbly wheels appeared.

Beta 3.5 was indistinguishable from 3.1 as far as poor/spotty/inconsistent assembly  workmanship. No design improvements that I could see.

Last edited by RoyBoy
@Bruce Brown posted:

Wouldn't Menards get substantially the same feedback by offering free engines to, say, 5 to 10 well-known evaluators like an Eric Siegel, Bob Keller or a few selected people in this forum?

I assume that since the "big name" train manufacturers require a minimum order for a production run Menards is no different. This is probably a number that the overseas manufacturer deems profitable.

The very selling of toy trains is merely a hobby itself for Menards. It has little if any effect on their bottom line. Investing in real testing probably isn't worth it.

It's nice for Menards to offer affordable alternatives in O Guage.

However, (and I say this respectfully as I know there are folks with limited budgets) Sometimes you get what you pay for.

Last edited by RickO
@Mannyrock posted:

By  "for free", I meant that the tester is not being paid anything for testing it out for Menards.  :-)    Instead, the tester is paying Menards!

Wouldn't it be great if we could all get our quality- control R&D done by somebody else,  and have him pay US for the "privilege?"

Mannyrock

I didn't think that way until I purchased version 3 and it was identical to version 2 in every way.  I bought version 1 and 2 was an improvement, but each version should have something improved about it otherwise call it a second or third release of version 2 for the purpose of getting more feedback.

That is why I opted to stop at version 3.  It appears there is no change from versions 2 and 3 in version 3.5.  But that is maybe just me.  There were some who felt that by telling us what was improved we wouldn't be objective when we evaluated.  I give people more credit than that.

Either way, I am not unhappy I have the three locos.  They will be fun to try experiments on and share them on this forum just like Bob did (above).

John

@RoyBoy posted:

Here's my report on the Beta 3.5

Roy Yost’s test of Menards Beta 3.5 Santa Fe diesel loco  2/3/2022



First off, let me say thank you for replacing my poorly built Beta 3.1 with this Beta 3.5. It cost me about $28 to ship the 3.1 back to you, but it could have been worth it. Let me explain.

The good:

The loco came to me in fine condition. The packaging materials are doing their job.

The firmware is working well. Speeding the loco, slowing the loco, and reversing the loco were smooth. I would still prefer the first speed step to be slower than it is. I run the loco at about 8 volts of track power. I like to run at medium and slow speeds.

The loco body ran smoothly and without all the shimmying and shaking of the 3.1 model. Both wheels on one axle are pressed on crooked and that truck did a mild hunting/yawing while running, but the loco body seemed to run true. More on this later.

The body mounting bolts were installed with reasonable force, not like the excessive force used on my 3.1.



The bad:

I still feel strongly that the gears press fit onto steel axles must be made of metal and not plastic. Two plastic gears must be changed to metal if the loco is to have a long and happy life. These are the driven worm wheel gears and the drive gear for the external idler gears. Due to the different expansion rates of the steel axle and the plastic gears, the gears that are press fit onto steel shafts will eventually split and will rotate/slip on the shaft. Since it seems unlikely that this will actually happen, I may have to lower my expectations. But I still feel that these plastic gears will come back to bite Menards eventually. For me, if these gears get into production, that will be a deal breaker and would prevent me from purchasing a production model.

The couplers still sit a bit lower than standard. The “thumbtacks” on the couplers were not fully riveted and flopped around. The rear coupler was floppy, so I applied the same fix of coating the threads with fingernail polish to hold them and tightening the mounting screw almost tight.

The two non- traction tire wheels on the rear truck were both pressed on crooked. Running the loco upside down, they really looked bad. Fortunately they did not affect the loco operation as badly as it looked like they should. Maybe because they did not have tires, maybe because they were not gauged too wide? I tried to straighten the worst one, but the pressure required was greater than I was comfortable applying. I am wondering if the non-traction tire wheels are made with the center holes too small, so they must be pressed on with excessive force. There still seems to be no manufacturing fixtures to assure that the wheels are pressed on straight and to the proper gauge.

While there was grease on the external idler gears, there was no grease whatsoever on the brass worm gears on the motors.  I do not know the various friction properties of brass and Nylon, but worm gears slide in operation and they require grease, in my opinion.



The really ugly:

I ran the loco on a freight train on my layout at medium/slow speed for about 45 minutes one night. The track is O-54 with no switches. The cars were mostly old wooden/metal kits from the 40’s and 50’s, all equipped with modern trucks made by Atlas. Everything ran smoothly and no odd noise or excessive heat was observed.

Here’s where it gets strange.

The next morning, I fired up the track at 8 volts again. I happened to be looking at the loco when I turned the remote throttle. There was a brief flash of light inside the cab, just for an instant. It was a cold white flash, like an LED and not a yellow flash like a spark. All the lights worked as they should. All the sounds worked like they should. But the loco would not move.

Taking the loco to the work bench for some tests revealed some surprises.

Examining the circuit board with a magnifying glass revealed no cold solder joints, no non-soldered solder joints, no burn marks, no loose components, no burnt components, no loose plugs, nothing. Everything looked good.

Unplugging the motor plug and running the motors on DC, the motors did not draw excessive current. I did not record the actual current, but it was about  90% of the current drawn by similar Williams motors that I tested at the same time.

This is where it really gets strange. I plugged an incandescent light bulb into the socket where the motor plug goes, so the board was only powering the bulb, not the motors. The bulb was off when the remote was in neutral position, and lit up when turning the throttle either forward or reverse. It seems as if the board is working, but will not handle the current of the motors – but these motors are not drawing excessive current. Very strange.

Conclusion:

So now my roster has a Beta 1 that is almost unusable because of the abrupt starts and stops. The roster also has a Beta 3.5 that does not run at all.

I have to admit that I am losing faith in the product. I cannot find the receipt for the Beta 1, but the Beta 3.1 was $201.77 and shipping it back was $28, so I am roughly $400 in the hole with nothing to show for it. I could put reverse units or bridge rectifiers in the locos and run them until the gears fail – and they will. When that happens, I could retrofit the locos with Williams motors and drive blocks, but that seems like a lot of work and additional expense.

I thought being a Beta tester would be fun, and I still like doing it, but I did not realize that it would be so expensive.

Regards

Roy Yost from the west coast

Roy,



Nice write up!!  Excellent analysis. 

Maybe someone will bring one to show tomorrow and run on layout.  Have to ask Chris to bring his as I don't believe he has a table.



See you tomorrow,  Mike D

@Mike Desing posted:

Roy,



Nice write up!!  Excellent analysis.

Maybe someone will bring one to show tomorrow and run on layout.  Have to ask Chris to bring his as I don't believe he has a table.



See you tomorrow,  Mike D

I will have my Beta 1 for sale on my table. I hope to get a percentage of what I paid and retrieve at least some of my money.

Last edited by RoyBoy
@Bruce Brown posted:

Shipping back my defective 3.5 back to Menards, a couple of weeks ago, cost me $17. The replacement one has just been shipped to me. I'll give an updated report as soon as it arrives. What possibly could go wrong with this new one?



Hmmm.  That tells me there's more units waiting in the wings for 4.0 and 4.5 "upgrades" and "Beta Fever."

Rusty



Maybe the minimum order for a production run is much more than the number they offer for beta testing! When they finally release these for sale to the general public they will just slip these beta's into the mix. Seems like what happens with the rolling stock. Its like a crap shoot as to whether a piece of rolling stock will operate as you would expect. As to folks saying you get what you pay for, they don't advertise that some of their product will not be up to par. No matter what price you pay its supposed to operate as intended.

Hello O gauge friends,

Although I am primarily an S Gauge American Flyer collector/sometimes operator, I enjoy all aspects of the train and toy train hobby.  I have been following the Menards entry into the O gauge market since their first products came on the scene.  

Full disclosure: I have purchased the Menards “Frenchies” Lionel Train House Chevy Panel Van and their Valley Motors Ford Dealership.  We lived near Sea-Tac in Seattle in the late 40s and early 50’s which is where “French’s” train store was apparently located.  Also my dad was a Ford dealer from 1960 to 1984, and the Menards Valley Motors is very reminiscent of one of our older downtown dealerships.

I believe every “Lionel” needs an MTH or a “K-Line” (or in my case, an S- Helper, American Models, MTH or, hopefully, ScaleTrains) to keep them on their toes and competitive and to allow people of all economic levels to enter and enjoy the hobby.  As some of those names have exited the market, it is good to see others come in or increase their participation.

So I have been interested in the “Beta Testing” of the Menards Santa Fe Diesel Loco, and I am hoping for its eventual successful introduction into the O Gauge market, followed by other such locos at moderately affordable prices.

That said, can anyone verify for me whether any of the production problems identified by the reviewers of the previous beta test models actually have been successfully addressed in the later releases?  If so, which ones?

Thank you,

Alan

An S Gauger in an O Gauge World

I received from Menards today a replacement for the non-operable Santa Fe I originally got 3 weeks ago. The good news is that this one actually works!

The 2nd through 4th generation versions have been thoroughly reviewed by others in this forum so I will try not to repeat too much....

Here goes:

a. Measured drawbar pull at 12 VAC: 1.0 to 1.1 lbs

b. Minimum track voltage: 7 VAC (but slow speed);  engine works OK at 12 VAC.

c: Couplers won't open on uncoupling track because thumbtacks are too low.

d. Engine vertically jumps/bounces through Ross switches (but does not derail). Problem is that the wheel rises at the frog. Wheel dimensions apparently not the same as MTH. Lionel, etc.

e. Too rapid minimum speed (even at 12 VAC); engine exhibits flywheel effect but makes the engine somewhat uncontrollable in terms of using remote control to precisely position engine at a specific location; e.g., having the thumbtack positioned exactly over the uncoupling track electromagnet just by using the remote.

f. Horn makes pulsating background sound on long press of horn button; not a pure tone.

@TheRambles posted:


I reviewed the 2.0 and 3.5 in this video I uploaded today. Also, I compare both to the Santa Fe Diesel in Lionel’s RTR set.

Excellent review. I also picked up the complete Lionel RTR SuperChief set for $209 on that 4 hour Amazon sale. I gave it as a Christmas gift to the very young son of a close friend of ours. He absolutely loves it. His parents say it is his favorite toy. (I never got to see it operate myself.)  But as I, Tony, and many others here have discovered, "caveat emptor" applies to anyone planning on purchasing the next iteration of this Menards engine.

@BOB WALKER posted:

What's somewhat surprising about the posted reviews is how behind the technical curve this engine appears to be. I have tested a large number of available sophisticated control systems and this engine seems to be lightyears behind what is currently commonplace for engine control systems.

I dont know , but It seems to be about the same as Lionels low end remote ?

@BOB WALKER posted:

What's somewhat surprising about the posted reviews is how behind the technical curve this engine appears to be.

I think what’s surprising is how behind every curve this Menards Loco is. Anyone feel free to correct me.

1. Didn’t Lionel create an operating knuckle coupler in 1947? That’s 75 year old technology.

2. A die cast block truck that’s machined with axles and gears, Lionel came out with in 1955? That’s 67 year old technology.

3. A traction tire that fits in a grooved wheel. Did American Flyer use this before Lionel in the 60’s? Let’s say 60 year old technology?

Menards you’re doing something very wrong if you can’t get these pretty old ideas right. How many more beta’s are needed to figure that out?

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