MODEL GRAPHIC O SCALE BRASS KIT

I know very little about it, but I have two Model Graphics cars, and figure them to be worth around $800 each.  At one point, Model Graphics cars were on display at Hills Hobbies, near Chicago. Works of art.

Another forgotten producer that needs included in the book. I'd be interested in the Q caboose on that list.

bob2 posted:

I know very little about it, but I have two Model Graphics cars, and figure them to be worth around $800 each.  At one point, Model Graphics cars were on display at Hills Hobbies, near Chicago. Works of art.

That metal must be gold, not brass!

Simon

Max Grey kits. I have one of the built-up SOO LINE sawtooth single sheathed cars. 

Absolutely gorgeous. It holds its own against modern brass though I think the Chooch car is just perfect.

Mine was built without a retainer valve which is the most glaring omission. 

I don't have it here so I can't post pictures but it does look nice. 

Heavy brass, deeply etched, put together without excess solder.  I would turn down $800.  I am just guessing what they will bring at auction.  The Seacrest auction should have some; we shall see.

This photo is so out of focus I don't why it was even posted!

Supply and demand will dictate a realistic price.    $800 does seem high for a kit, but it also seems very rare.    So that may be a good guess.

I also noticed that the logo on the box does look a lot like the Max Grey logo.

prrjim posted:

Supply and demand will dictate a realistic price.    $800 does seem high for a kit, but it also seems very rare.    So that may be a good guess.

About 10-fold high, but there is always someone, somewhere that decides that the price does equate to actual value.

Mine are assembled, and easily worth twice what the best import is worth.  Note "engraved", not photo-etched.

bob2 posted:

Mine are assembled, and easily worth twice what the best import is worth.  Note "engraved", not photo-etched.

Ain't what you said in your first post: "Heavy brass, deeply etched, put together without excess solder."

How much would you pay if you were trying to buy them from me? That's probably a better indication of value.

Add to that, quality will vary with the skill of the assembler. Maybe Sofue built yours and Aw Phooey did the next pair!

Simon

What, exactly, would you like from me?  I simply expressed an opinion.

Bob2,

Your opinion is as good as anyone else's.     There is no problem with it.   I think a lot of the reaction is surprise more than negative.   

Did I see it stated that these parts were engraved vs etched?     That is interesting?

prrjim posted:

Did I see it stated that these parts were engraved vs etched? 

How could anyone tell looking at that out of focus photo? 

prrjim posted:

Bob2,

Your opinion is as good as anyone else's.     There is no problem with it.   I think a lot of the reaction is surprise more than negative.   

Did I see it stated that these parts were engraved vs etched?     That is interesting?

 

 

 

Actually, yes! It took a bit of looking, but it is stamped on box in the first of the two pics. That seems (to me) to be the only exceptional feature.

Simon

bob2 posted:

What, exactly, would you like from me?  I simply expressed an opinion.

Saying these cars are worth twice the nicest import/$800 is a pretty radical statement.

The fact that they are put together without excess solder has nothing to do with the kit and it's quality. That's the skill of the person that built it.

Any good PSC car is nicely assembled with gobs of details for half the price.

Just trying to figure out why you think they are so exceptional.

Maybe the $800 thing is why they called him "MAX"

Simon from Missouri

Seem to recall these kits being made available in the early '70's.  Correct?  And were not from Max Gray......rather a chap from WI. Perhaps Arvid Anderson?

Pictures of the assembled models??

mark s posted:

Seem to recall these kits being made available in the early '70's.  Correct?  And were not from Max Gray......rather a chap from WI. Perhaps Arvid Anderson?

Don't know. But I do agree they were not Max Gray product. Max's O scale was imported under his name and his HO was under Metric Models. The first Max Gray models I saw were in New York when Herb Walters worked at Model Railroad Equipment Corporation. Believe that was 1955 which is when i got my first pieces of O scale equipment.

An auction for a Model Graphic Soo Line boxcar has appeared on the bay, so we may find out soon what the current market value of a kit is.  I have no conection to the auction, I just noticed it after this thread had started and thought others might be interested.

The 1973 Model Graphics catalog I have was listed as "Max Gray - importer and Distributor.  Model Graphics Publications 711 S. McArdee Rd, Waukegan IL. 60085".

www.ebay.com/itm/O-Scale-Model...it-NEW-/252951001057

John, pls. check your email.

Having looked at the auction piece, I can safely say I'd rather have a nice PSC car given the choice. I'm not into the "History" end of theses models, so no mystique there for me.

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

Having looked at the auction piece, I can safely say I'd rather have a nice PSC car given the choice. I'm not into the "History" end of theses models, so no mystique there for me.

Simon

The kit is a master craftsman kit.   I know I don't have the metalworking skills to build it as it deserves to be built. 

With that said I think the Soo Line car I have is at least on the PSC WBM/FM models quality level.  The only other way to get the Soo Line sawtooth car is the Chooch resin kit and they go for $150+ when you can find them.   The Chooch resin kit is state of the art. 

The car is a unique and neat single sheathed boxcar prototype and worth having.  Just not certain of how many folks nowadays have the soldering and metalworking skills to build it up.

I have the Menasha Wooden Ware car, and might consider trading it for a complete OB boxcar.  The Menasha is just not my "thing".

Rule292 posted:

Simon Winter posted:

Having looked at the auction piece, I can safely say I'd rather have a nice PSC car given the choice.

I might as well, but it's going to take a lot more money and it won't be any more finished that the kit will be once assembled.

I'm not into the "History" end of theses models, so no mystique there for me.

History is interesting, but building it is where it's at - putting it on a shelf (kit collectors ) to gather more dust...........is a waste of good fun.

Simon

The kit is a master craftsman kit.   I know I don't have the metalworking skills to build it as it deserves to be built. 

How do you know that w/o doing?  I've only ever had one kit fight me to an uneasy truce....LWS......but I do not let my lack of a skill set get in the way and just acquire the skills needed.......ok, I confess.  I still hate doing plumbing.........  

With that said I think the Soo Line car I have is at least on the PSC WBM/FM models quality level.  The only other way to get the Soo Line sawtooth car is the Chooch resin kit and they go for $150+ when you can find them.   The Chooch resin kit is state of the art.

It's not a trivial exercise to complete resin kit cars either.

The car is a unique and neat single sheathed boxcar prototype and worth having.  Just not certain of how many folks nowadays have the soldering and metalworking skills to build it up.

I just don't have the time.....but the fun value inherent in this is attractive.

I've never assembled an Arvid Anderson kit, but understand they can be a handful. I guess these MG kits are very similar to assemble? 

Not familiar with engraved brass parts, only engravings on jewelry. Does that mean the details are "machined" into flat or cast brass pieces?   These kits must have been the cats meow when they were 1st offered.

BH

Rule292 posted:
The kit is a master craftsman kit.   I know I don't have the metalworking skills to build it as it deserves to be built. 

 

Skills are one thing that can be learned. However, if you aren't already invested, having to pay for the equipment in order to do the job properly puts things into another dimension.

Speaking of resin kits, I have an SCF ATSF outside brace extended roof kit that I would trade in a heartbeat paying postage both ways for this Soo kit.  It truly is a gorgeous body casting!

mwb posted:

Rule292 posted:

Simon Winter posted:

Having looked at the auction piece, I can safely say I'd rather have a nice PSC car given the choice.

I might as well, but it's going to take a lot more money and it won't be any more finished that the kit will be once assembled.

I'm not into the "History" end of theses models, so no mystique there for me.

History is interesting, but building it is where it's at - putting it on a shelf (kit collectors ) to gather more dust...........is a waste of good fun.

Simon

The kit is a master craftsman kit.   I know I don't have the metalworking skills to build it as it deserves to be built. 

How do you know that w/o doing?  I've only ever had one kit fight me to an uneasy truce....LWS......but I do not let my lack of a skill set get in the way and just acquire the skills needed.......ok, I confess.  I still hate doing plumbing.........  

With that said I think the Soo Line car I have is at least on the PSC WBM/FM models quality level.  The only other way to get the Soo Line sawtooth car is the Chooch resin kit and they go for $150+ when you can find them.   The Chooch resin kit is state of the art.

It's not a trivial exercise to complete resin kit cars either.

The car is a unique and neat single sheathed boxcar prototype and worth having.  Just not certain of how many folks nowadays have the soldering and metalworking skills to build it up.

I just don't have the time.....but the fun value inherent in this is attractive.

Big Jim posted:

Rule292 posted:
The kit is a master craftsman kit.   I know I don't have the metalworking skills to build it as it deserves to be built. 

 

Skills are one thing that can be learned. However, if you aren't already invested, having to pay for the equipment in order to do the job properly puts things into another dimension.

 Awwww, c'mon now... building brass models is so simple that teens in Asian countries can build models for Boo Rim.

I know from assembling Suydam tin models in the 1970's that I won't be building brass models from scratch or kit anytime soon.

BUT If I were independently wealthy I'd go to the owner of Boo Rim and ask to be hired on their assembly line just to learn the skill set that they have.  

Rule292 posted:

Awwww, c'mon now... building brass models is so simple that teens in Asian countries can build models for Boo Rim.

I know from assembling Suydam tin models in the 1970's that I won't be building brass models from scratch or kit anytime soon.

BUT If I were independently wealthy I'd go to the owner of Boo Rim and ask to be hired on their assembly line just to learn the skill set that they have.  

You are a buyer of O scale brass ='s independently wealthy; just go import some teens....

Rule292 posted:

Big Jim posted:

Rule292 posted:
The kit is a master craftsman kit.   I know I don't have the metalworking skills to build it as it deserves to be built. 

 

Skills are one thing that can be learned. However, if you aren't already invested, having to pay for the equipment in order to do the job properly puts things into another dimension.

 Awwww, c'mon now...building brass models is so simple that teens in Asian countries can build models for Boo Rim.

You drastically missed the point! 

Rule292 posted:

BUT If I were independently wealthy I'd go to the owner of Boo Rim and ask to be hired on their assembly line just to learn the skill set that they have.  

 

 

For those not independently wealthy, with a vocational school nearby could just sign up for a welding, metalworking course. Most of the instructors there are skilled in many forms of metal joining.

This:

Was turned into this.

Using only these.

Not by me. Maybe someday.

Pete

Norton posted

This:

Was turned into this.

Using only these.

Not by me. Maybe someday.

Pete

All for soldering. May sound simplistic, but the most important thing to know is solder will flow TOWARD the heat. Then, practice, practice, practice!

Simon

Rule292 posted:

The kit is a master craftsman kit.   I know I don't have the metalworking skills to build it as it deserves to be built. 

With that said I think the Soo Line car I have is at least on the PSC WBM/FM models quality level.  The only other way to get the Soo Line sawtooth car is the Chooch resin kit and they go for $150+ when you can find them.   The Chooch resin kit is state of the art. 

The car is a unique and neat single sheathed boxcar prototype and worth having.  Just not certain of how many folks nowadays have the soldering and metalworking skills to build it up.

I can understand the desire to have specific locomotives, but as it goes with freight cars, unless you were modeling mostly the SOO Line, and wanted a HIGH representation/saturation of SOO Line equipment, I say so what! I don't see the need to have pieces from EVERY railroad. Most trains that I watched back in the day had a lot of redundancy as far as freight cars (meaning a bunch of the same type cars), mostly from the home road. If you're a SOO Line fanatic, then go for it!

Just my opinion,

Simon

Big Jim posted:

Rule292 posted:

Big Jim posted:

Rule292 posted:
The kit is a master craftsman kit.   I know I don't have the metalworking skills to build it as it deserves to be built. 

 

Skills are one thing that can be learned. However, if you aren't already invested, having to pay for the equipment in order to do the job properly puts things into another dimension.

 Awwww, c'mon now...building brass models is so simple that teens in Asian countries can build models for Boo Rim.

You drastically missed the point! 

I'm sure of that. Mrs Rule292 (Rule 281!) always tells me the same thing.    Everything's perfectly CLEAR to her.

I think the $370 I spent for my  assembled SOO Line car was worth it.  I think it was Ernst Leitz of Leica camera fame that said - "Expensive is when the product is not worth the price".    YMMV based upon whether you have a few hundred to blow.  I took a BIG chance since I didn't know who made the car, only that it was brass and it looked well constructed.

It's a neat and unique prototype.  Of course I wished MG would have done a Southern SU which was equally as unique and much more common. 

Any of you brass scratch builders want to build me a Southern SU in brass?  Or an ERIE horizontal rib hopper?

Rule292 posted:. 

Any of you brass scratch builders want to build me a Southern SU in brass?  Or an ERIE horizontal rib hopper?

At my hourly rate, that'll cost you a lot more than that Soo Line car,

mwb posted:

Rule292 posted:. 

Any of you brass scratch builders want to build me a Southern SU in brass?  Or an ERIE horizontal rib hopper?

At my hourly rate, that'll cost you a lot more than that Soo Line car,

I guess $370 isn't so expensive for a well built brass model then!

Rule292 posted:

mwb posted:

Rule292 posted:. 

Any of you brass scratch builders want to build me a Southern SU in brass?  Or an ERIE horizontal rib hopper?

At my hourly rate, that'll cost you a lot more than that Soo Line car,

I guess $370 isn't so expensive for a well built brass model then!

Well built & accurate scale model.....

Expensive is somewhat subjective.  If you don't have $370, it is; if you have it to perforate & put on a roll for later use, then it isn't.  Most O scale modelers exist somewhere between those two rather disparate boundary conditions.

I exist in the fuzzy area where I can afford $300 freight cars but cannot justify them.