Modern & Older transformers

More likely UL and safety- and the lawyers.

It's also about efficiency.

Bottom line, I completely understand your sentiment and in many ways agree with you. However, the fact is, that modern safety, efficiency, and just other regulatory guidance and pressure have made what you and I both know to work- a thing of the past.

To my knowledge, the last core and wiper style transformers produced in recent trains (O scale specifically) MRC Pure power and the Atlas/Williams 80 Watt.

WoodsyT, it would be very interesting to know how much a postwar ZW manufactured today would cost.  (Copper alone would probably put cost over the top.)  As  built then, they couldn't be UL listed or equivalent.

As the dealers sold new sets that needed new power supplies they needed inexpensive power supplies for the sets.  There are also the buyers that want the "new" stuff.  When I was collecting the power supplies for my Run Room the postwar transformers in good shape were selling for $1 per watt.

Our trusty postwar Zs and ZWs will be powering our toys long after we're dead and gone.  The modern ones won't be repairable.

@Susan Deats posted:

Our trusty postwar Zs and ZWs will be powering our toys long after we're dead and gone.  The modern ones won't be repairable.

Susan,

I hear ya but ...

Is this a gut feel thing, or do you have some facts to back up this claim about modern transformers?

Why would they not be fixable?  All you need is parts and knowledgeable folks to work on them.  Same as the old stuff.  In fact the same for all 120 years worth of Lionel products of all sorts.

Parts are in short supply now but won't be forever.  Substitutes are already in the works.

If you're concerned about our hobby getting to be too small to support sources for these substitute parts you need not worry. Our stuff uses the same parts as millions of other electronic things, whether old or relatively new.

And as this forum proves, knowledgeable people can be found.  You just have to know where to look.

It's too early to give up.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Susan,

I hear ya but ...

Is this a gut feel thing, or do you have some facts to back up this claim about modern transformers?

Why would they not be fixable?  All you need is parts and knowledgeable folks to work on them.  Same as the old stuff.  In fact the same for all 120 years worth of Lionel products of all sorts.

Parts are in short supply now but won't be forever.  Substitutes are already in the works.

If you're concerned about our hobby getting to be too small to support sources for these substitute parts you need not worry. Our stuff uses the same parts as millions of other electronic things, whether old or relatively new.

And as this forum proves, knowledgeable people can be found.  You just have to know where to look.

It's too early to give up.

Mike

I agree with her Mike.  Things are generally NOT built with quality in mind today.  It's a disposable mentality.  Then there are the parts that are in short supply as you mentioned.  You may think that is temporary, but I don't.   When will the MTH TIU be available again?  Never.  How many people covet those that own them?   What about the Cab2?   Now we need to wait and wait for the WIU at high cost or the Cab3 (same deal).

I can rebuild a KW or ZW using run of the mill parts or refurbish the worn parts because they are built to take it and not self-destruct in the process.   Even the bakelite shells can be restored.

I understand that inferior quality is a fact of life, but neither I nor Susan have to like it.

John

EDIT:  Just saw a ZW-L on sale for $1000.  Wonder if can be rebuilt in a few years for a few bucks?

I sold all my ZW and KW transformers since I only run modern engines. I replaced them with the Lionel Bricks and most recently the ZWL. The super fast acting circuit breakers certainly take away any fears of derails or short circuits on my layout. Well worth the money.

I run my layout with a PW ZW and two KW's for lights and switch power.  No fast-acting anythings.  Running TMCC since it was introduced in 1995.  Haven't blown a board yet.

Jon

For modern trains running on fixed voltage Lionels 180w bricks are tough to beat, arguably the fastest breaker in the hobby.

While there are safeguards that can be put in place. It always seems the same folks are the ones cooking boards. I suspect there may be a PW transformer lurking on the layout.

I also witnessed alot of fireworks at a club using MTH's Z4000 transformers.

It appeared the power never cut out. The locomotive had to be picked off of the layout. At that point I realized I have no interest in running my trains anywhere but on my home layout.

On a side note. Way to much concern is placed on how long these things will last after we're gone. It won't matter to any of us, I promise.

Nothing beats a pure 60hz sine wave, I would rather have a nice old zw than a 180 watt brick, that puts out a modified square wave. Lionel and the rest of the manufactures only went to chopper power supplies to save money. If you are worried about current overloads there are all kinds of fast acting breakers out there.

@Judd posted:

... a 180 watt brick, that puts out a modified square wave.

The 180 brick is pure sine wave. Check it out on a scope.

I would to like to know what you are using for a scope , your settings etc.  , are looking for trash when you  expand the sweep?

I had the Lionel RS-1 from the early 1990s.  Definitely not a pure sine wave. Any engine with a traditional e-unit sounded horrendous with that transformer.  Same engine on postwar Lionel 1033 sounded much quieter. Sent it back to Lionel at the time and got a full refund.

The hobby store I worked part time at, had an RS-1 for over 20 years on their layout.  Seemed quite bullet proof as in all the time there it never once failed.

Please tell me how this circuit can produce a perfect sine wave.

@RickO posted:

For modern trains running on fixed voltage Lionels 180w bricks are tough to beat, arguably the fastest breaker in the hobby.

While there are safeguards that can be put in place. It always seems the same folks are the ones cooking boards. I suspect there may be a PW transformer lurking on the layout.

Yup. If you're running all command control trains a PH180 is your best bet. Instant trip breakers, a steady 18V, and a power supply that won't heat up over an hour or two providing those 18V.

"It always seems the same folks are the ones cooking boards. I suspect there may be a PW transformer lurking on the layout."

Not just a postwar transformer, but horrible wiring will do it as well. But I would agree there seems to be a contingent of people who keep blowing up circuit boards, and the problem is more than likely the way they are operating their trains than the modern trains themselves.

@Craftech posted:

Things are generally NOT built with quality in mind today.  It's a disposable mentality ...

... I understand that inferior quality is a fact of life, but neither I nor Susan have to like it.

John,

Agreed.  No argument.  You have many good points.  But, this statement above has nothing to do with fixing something that has broken, only how soon it breaks in the first place.  Yes, it shouldn't break, ever.  But even mechanical things break.  If they didn't then why did Lionel put in place a large service network, even from it's earliest days?

@Craftech posted:

You may think that is temporary, but I don't.   When will the MTH TIU be available again?  Never.  How many people covet those that own them?   What about the Cab2?   Now we need to wait and wait for the WIU at high cost or the Cab3 (same deal).

The Cab-2 is a special case.  The biggest problem with it is that the "touchscreen" used to make changeable buttons is not used on anything else, as far as I can tell.  As a result it was already obsolete when the first Cab-2 was made.  Everything else in the world that uses a touchscreen uses the cellphone-type glass surface, specifically already used in billions of phones.  Because of this the technology is not only still available but will also likely be for a long, long time.   Not so for Cab-2's touchscreen.

99% of all other parts used in any of our stuff, and any other electronics, are standard parts.  They're widely used in millions of other things manufactured in many other industries.  The headache we see in our hobby is magnified many, many times in these industries because of their large production volumes.  As a result substitutes are already coming.  Yes, they're slow in coming because in the semiconductor business it takes years to build new plants.

You cannot say this for the old, admittedly superbly made, mechanical parts we use in our hobby.  They are only usable on model trains, and as such only made and used in very low volumes compared to mechanical parts used other industries.  What differs is the size of the new tooling effort required to fill the void.  Electronics - a little bigger;  Mechanical -- a little smaller.

@Craftech posted:

I can rebuild a KW or ZW using run of the mill parts or refurbish the worn parts because they are built to take it and not self-destruct in the process.   Even the bakelite shells can be restored.

Any old-fashioned transformer, say a ZW for example, from the time it's first used to get a train to move, is wearing out because of the mechanical contact between roller(s) and windings.  Is this not self-destruction?

Yes you can replace rollers, and line cords, and other parts.  And, you can replace electronic parts similarly with new ones.  My term "Standard" is the same as your term "Run-of-the-Mill".  The only difference is the skill set one needs in order to swap out the parts.  I realize that electronics may not be easy for you to fix, but they are still fixable by others.

As far as cheaply, it won't be cheap in either case.  Hours of time spent in a repair are expensive, whether we're talking mechanical, electricals, or electronics.  How much did it cost the last time you had a repair person fix something that broke, say a refrigerator or wash machine?

@Craftech posted:

Just saw a ZW-L on sale for $1000.  Wonder if can be rebuilt in a few years for a few bucks?

It certainly can.  It's made up of individual, replaceable parts.

My thanks to you and Susan for your comments.

Mike

(BTW - Countering other points in this thread, if you want electronically controlled variable AC, and most of us do although might not, smooth-wave AC will cost you much more than that $1,000.00.  Is it worth the extra money?)

@Judd posted:

Please tell me how this circuit can produce a perfect sine wave.

Don't be distracted by the overload protection circuitry.

@ADCX Rob posted:

Don't be distracted by the overload protection circuitry.

Rob,

Very well said.  A perfect example of a situation where a picture (annotated with color of course) says a thousand words.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

John,

Agreed.  No argument.  You have many good points.  But, this statement above has nothing to do with fixing something that has broken, only how soon it breaks in the first place.  Yes, it shouldn't break, ever.  But even mechanical things break.  If they didn't then why did Lionel put in place a large service network, even from it's earliest days?

The Cab-2 is a special case.  The biggest problem with it is that the "touchscreen" used to make changeable buttons is not used on anything else, as far as I can tell.  As a result it was already obsolete when the first Cab-2 was made.  Everything else in the world that uses a touchscreen uses the cellphone-type glass surface, specifically already used in billions of phones.  Because of this the technology is not only still available but will also likely be for a long, long time.   Not so for Cab-2's touchscreen.

99% of all other parts used in any of our stuff, and any other electronics, are standard parts.  They're widely used in millions of other things manufactured in many other industries.  The headache we see in our hobby is magnified many, many times in these industries because of their large production volumes.  As a result substitutes are already coming. Yes, they're slow in coming because in the semiconductor business it takes years to build new plants.

I hope you are right Mike

You cannot say this for the old, admittedly superbly made, mechanical parts we use in our hobby.  They are only usable on model trains, and as such only made and used in very low volumes compared to mechanical parts used other industries.  What differs is the size of the new tooling effort required to fill the void.  Electronics - a little bigger;  Mechanical -- a little smaller.

Any old-fashioned transformer, say a ZW for example, from the time it's first used to get a train to move, is wearing out because of the mechanical contact between roller(s) and windings.  Is this not self-destruction?

Yes you can replace rollers, and line cords, and other parts.  And, you can replace electronic parts similarly with new ones.  My term "Standard" is the same as your term "Run-of-the-Mill".  The only difference is the skill set one needs in order to swap out the parts.  I realize that electronics may not be easy for you to fix, but they are still fixable by others.

I think I am losing track of how many times I have gone to the Lionel website looking for parts and seen "unavailable" next to it.  Call them and it seems clear they will never have it available again.

As far as cheaply, it won't be cheap in either case.  Hours of time spent in a repair are expensive, whether we're talking mechanical, electricals, or electronics.  How much did it cost the last time you had a repair person fix something that broke, say a refrigerator or wash machine?

I fix my own, but then again, I won't buy say a washing machine with electronic controls.  I had a Whirlpool direct drive washer for 30 years and inexpensively fixed it until the transmission finally leaked out and I didn't feel like fixing it anymore.  So I looked and Whirlpool had discontinued those a number of years ago.  They new ones aren't nearly as reliable with Consumer Reports giving modern washing machines an average life expectancy of between 5 - 10 years.  So I did further research and found the closest thing I could which was a commercial Speed Queen Washer.  There were three models, two with electronic controls and one with mechanical controls like the old Whirlpool had.  I chose the one with mechanical controls.  I took the case off and inspected the inside.  It is built as well as the old Whirlpool direct drive washers and just as serviceable.

It certainly can.  It's made up of individual, replaceable parts.

My thanks to you and Susan for your comments.

Mike

(BTW - Countering other points in this thread, if you want electronically controlled variable AC, and most of us do although might not, smooth-wave AC will cost you much more than that $1,000.00.  Is it worth the extra money?)

John

There's some "stuff" (technical term) between the secondary of the transformer and the output terminals.  Do you see that ground symbol on the blue line? Do you see all the other places where that ground symbol leads to other stuff lurking on the blue line?  An oscilloscope will prove or disprove this argument. Does anyone have the evidence?

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

The Cab-2 is a special case.  The biggest problem with it is that the "touchscreen" used to make changeable buttons is not used on anything else, as far as I can tell.  As a result it was already obsolete when the first Cab-2 was made. 

I guess a potential "option" would be to go back to a rubber button keypad. Then the Legacy remote would be  not much different than what a DCC remote is today.

The caveat would be the multi function of the keypad. If the buttons were large enough maybe the multiple alternate AUX- functions could be printed on the buttons. Folks have either memorized, or used overlays on the cab one for decades.  A step backwards, but not a huge one IMO.

I guess now I'm drifting. My apologies.

So you think that the line volatge is passed right through to the out put terminals? Why is there an 8 volt circuit that powers an oscillator that modulates the output voltage, yet it doesn't affect the output wave form?

Do you really think that T1 could pass anything close to 10 amps for any length of time?

As I said before nothing beats a good old ZW !

"As I said before nothing beats a good old ZW !"

Provided it has been checked out by a knowledgeable repair person, and outfitted with a modern circuit breaker and a transient voltage suppressor across the output, no? 

Amen!

Assorted comments:

UL lists transformers to their Toy Transformer Standard regardless of whether it is wiper on core or solid state.  To get past the 3 wire plug and higher wattages, they use the Sporting Goods Power Supplies standard.  The RoW Transformer used that standard.  And truly it was all about what the company insurance underwriter decided after interviewing me.

A solid state transformer (variable resistor and triac) is substantially cheaper to make (pulse output) than a wiper on core (60Hz). Its all about economics. 

When it comes to destructive capabilities from a short circuit, its all about the motor in the engine, not the transformer.  When a short circuit occurs, the motor comes to a complete locked stop and its magnet field collapses creating a massive pulse; right thru the electronics and back to the short circuit.  The transformer is not a participant in this. 

Okay, let the fun begin.......

Lou N

I have my PW ZW's and KW set to voltage and the handles don't get moved.  I have everything properly protected for use with my modern command engines.  It's been working well for me for 8+ years and I've had a few derailments and shorts along the way and my engines electronics survived.

I enjoy something about the look of those old transformers...

A few experiences along the way.   

I restarted in the hobby about 7 years ago.  A conventional AC powered set with a CW80 transformer.  I targeted post war as I added to the collection.   I soon realized many of the post war horns and accessories did not function well with the modern CW80.     I then used a postwar 1033 transformer, and not long after a refurbished ZW.  All the post war stuff worked great.  More power than I needed.  The ZW was updated for a still not fast modern breaker, modern horn/bell diode, new rollers and to tighten things up to keep the hum low. 

I add one or two modern engines with Lionchief or electronic sound.   In went the TVS diodes on the track connections for transient voltage protection.   Simple to do.

Then legacy control and a legacy powermaster for running the engines in conventional.   An adapter let me use the transformer with the powermaster.

Then downsized to a KW, less footprint.  The ZW was nice, but I was never going to use it all.   The KW was refurbished similar to the KW. 

I have switched out accessory and train lighting to LED bulbs or LED strips.   This reduced the power need significantly for all the lighting in the cars and layout.     

Lately I added a 135W brick directly to the Legacy Powermaster.    No noticeable hum nor heat.   Now the KW is more than I need, but still used for auxilliary power.

I learned how to phase the brick and the Transformer.

As I begin my addition I have another 135W brick and Legacy powermaster.  If I was going to run 3 or more engines at one time from one power supply, the 180W may be better, but the price was higher!   I only run one engine at a time per brick. 

If I want fast acting breaker, I have 2 kits I haven't put together yet.   I don't believe they are needed with the Legacy Powermaster.   It may be good to have the fast acting breakers on the transformer based auxilliary circuit.   I do have a pit or two in my track from past shorts with the ZW amps feeding it. 

And then comes modern layout buildings and accessories.  From various vendors there are various voltages.  4.5VDC, 12VDC along with the traditional 14VAC and O22 switches at around 18v.     For the DC, I bought some adjustable Buck convertors to convert the 14VAC to the DC needed.  Cheap and they can tie into the 14V backbone.    I think it will be easier to use the Buck convertors vs. many little transformers plugged in all over.

I have added an amp gauge and voltmeter to monitor track power.   Volt gauge to get "conventional" feedback when running the powermaster in conventional mode.   The amp gauge helps from time to time with problem solving.

There are many more options now for your layout and that leads to more power options.   

We all want to do it the right way the first time.  You can't avoid a learning curve.  And then you change plans and it costs more anyway.