mth...??

Electronic logic circuits have changed from 5v to 3v over the years.

Pennsy...that may be but when a board goes on an Atlas/Lionel engine does the same hold true in that one needs to spend in excess of $150 to purchase/upgrade to a newer board?

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Pennsy...that may be but when a board goes on an Atlas/Lionel engine does the same hold true in that one needs to spend in excess of $150 to purchase/upgrade to a newer board?

I may be wrong but Lionel no longer services older TMCC boards.

I have never had a problem with the TMCC or Legacy boards. I do have a lot of engines. DCS does not work on my layout and I am not willing to rewire it so I run MTH conventionally. I have not had a problem with a MTH board either. Knock on wood.

The thing about Lionel stuff is all of the individual boards for TMCC are generally still available, at least the modular stuff with the motherboard. I can buy the R2LC, the RS board and the RS P/S board. I can also buy the DCDR. I'm not sure you can get the older stuff form the 90's, but I have some spares.

The intergrated circuits used in the 5 volt boards are no longer manufactured. It's going to happen the 3 volt boards sooner or later as the technology advances.
After the design of the new TIU rev L was finalized didn't MTH run into a lot of the components were no longer made and had to scramble to find them? What happens when their supply runs out and these rev L TIU need repair? Nature of the game. Made today obsolete and out of production tomorrow.

The chips used in those integrated circuits are not made forever (even if a company is still using them when the decision to stop production happens) and there is usually not a direct replacement for them when production does stop. This leads to changes in design that use newer chips. This gives us new boards with more functionality as the newer chips usually allow more to be accomplished. If I remember correctly, when Lionel stopped making TMCC, they said that discontinued electronic components was one of the reasons for making the decision.

I've found one of the biggest values in O scale in terms of affordability is to buy PS1 premier engines and convert them to TMCC.

You usually get a superbly detailed engine at a steal because it's PS 1 and it offsets the cost of the upgrade and it's still not hard to find PS1 engines in unrun condition.

David

quote:

Originally posted by DPC:
I've found one of the biggest values in O scale in terms of affordability is to buy PS1 premier engines and convert them to TMCC.

You usually get a superbly detailed engine at a steal because it's PS 1 and it offsets the cost of the upgrade and it's still not hard to find PS1 engines in unrun condition.

David

What does it cost (in materials) to convert to TMCC? Just curious.

This is why I'm unlikely to ever buy an expensive new O-gauge engine: obsolete electronics in the long run, and too expensive to repair. I can and have done electronics repair, but I don't need that much complication and expense in my hobby.

My only newer engine is a 1998 MTH PS-1 Big Boy, which I bought cheap because it wasn't working. I figured I could convert it to conventional operation with a manual reversing switch, but I got lucky and found that it just had a pulled wire at the 4-pin plug on the tether from the tender. I fixed the plug and everything works. But if it had been a major electronic problem, as many PS-1 locos had, I would not spend hundreds to "upgrade". I don't need sound that bad - it gets routine after a while. What I want are affordable reliable locos that move trains and look good.

I got into three-rail O gauge largely because of the nostalgic charm of a simpler era. I have mostly postwar-era equipment which is durable and relatively easy to work on, and it's affordable if you shop right for second-hand items and do your own repairs.

The newer locos have DC motors, right? Put in a bridge rectifier and a manual reversing switch (or E-unit if you wish), and bypass all the problematic electronics if you don't want to keep throwing money at technology that becomes obsolete in 10 to 20 years.

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The newer locos have DC motors, right? Put in a bridge rectifier and a manual reversing switch (or E-unit if you wish), and bypass all the problematic electronics

As time goes by I assume this might be the case for an ever growing number of engines. It may become so common that a new term will have to be invented to describe them. I suggest that any TMCC/Legacy/PS/PS2/PS3 engine that has been down graded to basic operation be called a zombie.

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Then they upgraded to Proto 2... o.k. that’s fine however, there are distinct advantages to running Proto 2 versus 1, although the two versions cannot be run together.

Why not?

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Now, there’s the issue that when the older 5V boards expire, as has recently happened with one of my P2 engines, one has to decide whether it's worthwhile to spend $150 plus to replace the older board with a newer 3V board as it appears MTH no longer is producing 5V boards?

Unless you need this loco ASAP, I would hold out to Ps3... which could be alittle while for those kits.

quote:

Originally posted by Ace:
The newer locos have DC motors, right? Put in a bridge rectifier and a manual reversing switch (or E-unit if you wish), and bypass all the problematic electronics if you don't want to keep throwing money at technology that becomes obsolete in 10 to 20 years.

Does anyone know when MTH or Lionel switched to DC compatible motors? Also, if thats the case, are we a step closed to DCC for all? DCC, IMO, isn't going to go away and is where I had hoped O would be going. This ummm "proprietary" stuff is a pain for the consumer.

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Does anyone know when MTH or Lionel switched to DC compatible motors?

Marty

Save for tinplate or post war reproductions with open frame motors, all the manufacturers have been using DC motors for years, actually decades now. DC can motors became common in the 1990s. Typically, 3 rail O gauge locomotives with DC motors are designed for use with AC track power which is rectified to DC on board the locomotive before it is sent to the motor.

All MTH Proto 1 and Proto 2 locomotives have DC motors. Up through and including the PS-2 five volt boards they were AC track power only. With the advent of the PS-2 three volt hardware (a few years after the introduction of Proto 2) PS-2 locomotives can be run with either AC or DC track power.

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Also, if thats the case, are we a step closed to DCC for all? DCC, IMO, isn't going to go away and is where I had hoped O would be going.

ProtoSound 3 O scale locomotives can be run with either AC or DC power as well as DCS and DCC. In the DCC world it is common to refer to a decoder that can run on DCC or conventional DC as a dual mode decoder. That makes Proto 3 a four mode decoder. It is about as close to a universal sound and command system as we are likely to see. If you have been waiting for DCC to come to three rail O it is here with Proto 3.

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This ummm "proprietary" stuff is a pain for the consumer.

I'm going to guess you haven't used DCC too much. Both Legacy and DCS have much more refined user interfaces than DCC and DCC has no speed control standard that makes out of the box consisting easy as it is with DCS or Legacy. To me, most DCC systems remind me of the DOS era of PCs, talk about a pain! That shouldn't be too surprising since DCC dates back to that era and it can only be modernized by committee. Too many committee members have a vested interest in stopping advancement. The committee won't let DCC move forward as fast as Lionel and MTH can move with their own systems plus DCC is hitting some hard technology constraints. DCC is very limited in bandwith and the only DCC systems that have two way communication require "proprietary" hardware. IMHO, if the DCC committee doesn't come up with a system that makes technological sense in the 21st century the market will eventually move on without them.

quote:

quote:

This ummm "proprietary" stuff is a pain for the consumer.

I'm going to guess you haven't used DCC too much. Both Legacy and DCS have much more refined user interfaces than DCC and DCC has no speed control standard that makes out of the box consisting easy as it is with DCS or Legacy. To me, most DCC systems remind me of the DOS era of PCs, talk about a pain! That shouldn't be too surprising since DCC dates back to that era and it can only be modernized by committee. Too many committee members have a vested interest in stopping advancement. The committee won't let DCC move forward as fast as Lionel and MTH can move with their own systems plus DCC is hitting some hard technology constraints. DCC is very limited in bandwith and the only DCC systems that have two way communication require "proprietary" hardware. IMHO, if the DCC committee doesn't come up with a system that makes technological sense in the 21st century the market will eventually move on without them.

You are correct, I haven't used much DCC. I agree it is cumbersome. That said, I think there are ipod apps for dcc, meaning the improvement commitee, must have had a small turnout and some progress was made. However, the only reason I can't put DCC in virtually every N Scale loco I own, is space... That problem doesn't exist, as much, in O. I think it's a lack of profit to be made on the research that keeps a universal DCC like alternative, with a better interface out of O. No, I don't want to trim the speed variable on my Polar Express, so it doesn't overtake a heavily laden MTH Premier Berk. The technology exists. The R&D and impementation probably cost too much. I can dream that my wife will let me convert the 2 car garage to a train room and I can dream of universal control.

quote:

Originally posted by Gary:

quote:

The newer locos have DC motors, right? Put in a bridge rectifier and a manual reversing switch (or E-unit if you wish), and bypass all the problematic electronics

As time goes by I assume this might be the case for an ever growing number of engines. It may become so common that a new term will have to be invented to describe them. I suggest that any TMCC/Legacy/PS/PS2/PS3 engine that has been down graded to basic operation be called a zombie.

Well, I have created lots of Zombie's and they run fine.





.

Yea I think the guy who said DCC isn't improving better go and read a little.

That DOS program is now windows 7 compatible meaning you can use your PC to control the trains.

It has duplex now just like DCS and is infinite in it's capability.

The biggest advantage DCC has over DCS and TMCC/Legacy is that a whole industry is trying to put out the latest and greatest. Their working on one system not firing shots across the pond at each other boasting Legacy does this or DCS does that.

Yes there are NMRA standards but once those standards are met company's can enhance decoders as much as they want and believe me they do.
Cumbersome? Maybe but everything has a learning curve to it although I'd say it may be a little to much for the 'I used to run everything conventional crowd" in O scale.

DCC not only allows you to run command control . It allows you to control every operating parameter and every sound in each particular engine and allows you to fine tune each.The Tsunami sound decoders even have a built in 16 channel graphic equalizer in them.
The Tsunami operators manual is 400 pages long not because it's an antiquated system but because it has that many features.

No you don't have to know it all you can run just fine with about 15 minutes of reading but wouldn't it be nice for example to have a F-3 Like the NS executive set and just by changing a CV value you could go from a old EMD horn to one like a Dash 8? or pick from 7 others. Switch from a choice of 4 or 5 different prime movers?
Now you see why the manual is 400 pages.

But those out there that want DCC in O scale don't hold your breath.I say MTH is making PS3 boards so it's a one size fits all for their HO and O scale engines it just makes the manufacturing process easier.
Not because they think O scalers are gonna throw their stuff in the trash and go DCC.

David

quote:

Originally posted by zhyachts:
Well, I have created lots of Zombie's and they run fine.

Care to sell some of those "surplus" boards?

Why would you pull all of those electronics out of your locos - were they all
actually faulty? Really?

I have had good luck with my locos - all brands. Not 100% - but about 95.

The sound can indeed get a little wearying; if the loco ever actually left the room (went to another
city) it would be fine. (But it can still sound great.)

I know a guy who consistently has trouble with his locos - all brands. When he buys a new loco,
I wait for the "my XYZ A-A quit working/burned up)" phone call. He's ham-fisted and rich, and he
forces things, so I guess they're disposable...but no one else in our little local O-gauge
world experiences these things. I have a big collection, but I'm not rich and I acquired these
things over time, and I'm careful with them - when I'm not scratch-bashing them, that is!

I do worry over the proprietary electronics, though. I wish that the 3-rail world had gone
to good gearing, DCC and Kadee design couplers 30 years ago. TMCC and DCS are more dynamic systems,
in a way, but much too "owned."

Actually, I wish that TMCC -was- our DCC, and as un-proprietary. TMCC, from a user's point of view, is elegantly simple.
I don't care if I can quill my whistle or not.

Just wondering, if the E-Unit goes bad on an old 1950's engine where do you buy a brand new replacement?

quote:

Originally posted by BillP:
Just wondering, if the E-Unit goes bad on an old 1950's engine where do you buy a brand new replacement?

E-Unit parts are available in scores of places. No problem at all.

Hi Folks,

I was at my HO club today. People were running engines from a large number of builders - Atlas, Athearn, LifeLike, Walthers, Broadway, MTH, Trix, etc. All engines were using DCC.

All engines run flawlessly together on the same layout. Many members run multiple unit diesel consists with engines from different manufacturers. They easily consist steam engines.

MTH's HO Proto 3 locomotives run extremely well with DCC. They have great sound and smoke. Some of them have remote couplers. Many of our club members remove the remote couplers and replace them with Kadees. They like the simplicity of the Kadees.

We only have a couple of DCC experts in the club. Most of us buy a DCC equipped locomotive and put it on the layout without reading the manual and run it. It is easy.

A simple HO DCC decoder without sound costs around $15. A complex HO decoder with sound is in the $100 range. Nearly anyone can install these decoders without problems. The club has a class to teach new members how to install a basic decoder without sound in old Athearn diesels. Most people become proficient in about a half hour.

DCC is a great system and I wish that 3-rail O gauge had a similar standard.

I have seen many 2-rail O gauge layouts that run DCC successfully. I believe that DCC is rapidly becoming the 2-rail O gauge standard.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Ace:
This is why I'm unlikely to ever buy an expensive new O-gauge engine: obsolete electronics in the long run, and too expensive to repair. I can and have done electronics repair, but I don't need that much complication and expense in my hobby.

I don't need sound that bad - it gets routine after a while. What I want are affordable reliable locos that move trains and look good.

I got into three-rail O gauge largely because of the nostalgic charm of a simpler era. I have mostly postwar-era equipment which is durable and relatively easy to work on, and it's affordable if you shop right for second-hand items and do your own repairs

I felt the same way. Then I decided to try TMCC with a couple cheap locos. I realized one of the most fun things I could do was run more than one train on the same track at the same time. Then I got cruise control locos which made it easier to control several trains at once. Now the latest Legacy features are so real the older locos sit on the shelf. I got my father's PW GG1 & Berkshire out last Christmas & they were nostalgic but became boring after an hour. I love being able to have 4-5 engines powered on the same line, moving simaltaneously or lashed. I guess that's what I paid for, will it last? Well the value of my conventional stuff dropped as much or more than the early TMCC & PS1 I have.

Last Nov I got my first Legacy subway set. I would encourage checking out the Youtube videos of these sets. The sounds and door openings, details... the new stuff is pretty amazing.

Command control is like watching TV without a remote,once you use that remote theres no going back.

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Yea I think the guy who said DCC isn't improving better go and read a little.

quote:

The Tsunami operators manual is 400 pages long not because it's an antiquated system but because it has that many features.

DPC

Funny you should mention that. I have Tsunami equipped HO locomotives and downloaded the the PDF file for the manual so I could program them. That is why I much prefer DCS or Legacy as a user. Tsunami has a lot going for it. But to access many of those features you have to use arcane CVs to accomplish what you can do simply by scrolling through a menu with DCS. To check scale speed with Tsunami you may need to break out a stopwatch and a calculator. You don't even have to bother with that at all with DCS since every PS2 and PS3 locomotive comes out of the box speed mapped identically. The best way I found to check the scale speed of a Tsunami equipped locomotive was to just run it on the same track with a PS3 locomotive used as the reference. That saved time over the stopwatch method but was limited by the inexactness of BEMF. Both DCS and Legacy use speed measuring hardware that is inherently more accurate than BEMF since their feedback values don't change with motor temperature. BEMF isn't a DCC mandate but it is the method used in Tsunami and by all DCC decoder manufacturers except MTH.

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It has duplex now just like DCS and is infinite in it's capability.

Only Lenz and Digitrax have hardware on the market for two way communication. Lenz had their system adopted as a recommended practice after years of DCC committee meetings. Digitrax is on their own. If you want to have two way communications you have to buy their decoders. Tsunami, QSI or other brands of decoders wont talk to the Lenz or Digitrax systems.

A big part of the problem is the communication method of DCC. The polarity of the track power is switched at high frequency to create the digital signal. It was never intended to allow two way communications and has limited bandwidth. To give a decoder a chance to talk back to a detector the command station has to stop sending data. This takes a big bite out of the already limited bandwidth available to DCC.

The capabilities of DCC are very very far from infinite. Lenz acknowledges this when they state "While RailCom is very powerful, there are limits to the technology and therefore we needed to work closely with the community so that we could choose carefully which information we desire to transmit back." That careful choosing is mandated by the limited bandwidth and the expense of trying to work around it.

There are ingenious workarounds for some of the limitations imposed by the old technology specified in the DCC standards. Many DCC users use JMRI decoder pro on their PC to get past the inconvenience of programing CVs. Freiwald offers some impressively complex solutions to make up for the lack of sophistication in DCC decoders. But it makes less and less sense to try and develop ever more powerful workarounds for the basic limitations of a 20 year old communication method.

At some point you have to look at the old car you have hot rodded and realize your awesome 600 horsepower EFI engine is stuck under the hood of a ford fairmount and no amount of further fixing or fudging will overcome the limitations of an out of date platform.

DCS and Legacy have more growth potential due to their communication methods, greater bandwidth and two way communication methods. Airwire has taken the leap of totally separating communication form the track and may represent the way of the future. With wireless networks in many homes and ever smaller commercially available wireless communication hardware it would be logical for command control to go to wireless. Will it? I don't know. Ask the DCC committee if they will allow it. In a few years they might get back to you. In the mean time I expect to see DCS and Legacy keep moving ahead.

Ted, Interesting you mentioned Airwire. I did a repair of a G scale with the Airwire and Phoenix sound system. Also had the Battery pack.

Certainly the way to go for outdoor G layouts.

I was impressed with the system.

What had me thinking about it was modifying a MTH PS-1 with the system including battery. Would allow command control on any layout since the track voltage would only be used for smoke and constant on lights, and battery recharging. The mod would be quite simple and you would have wireless DCC operating an O scale engine on any layout. G

I forgot to mention this in a another post, but it's appropriate here and has been mentioned before. AS frustrated as I am with DCS the moment, we're going to have a hard time getting younger people involved in the hobby without the electronics. Kids are different these days; they require more to stimulate them. AFter TV, computers, and video games, just watching a train running around isn't all that interesting. I see it with my three youngest boys. The sounds and lights pull them in, and a remote control with buttons is immediately familiar to them. I think there is a lot of value in learning the more esoteric aspects of the hobby; basic electrical, model building, etc., but that won't come until they are a little older.

I lived through the electronic toy revolution. I had the hand held electronic games, the Atari 2600, the 8-bit computers, Nintendo/64/Cube, 32 bit computers, and now Wii/Playstation 3. It wasn't until relatively recently that you were able to actually simulate things with such accuracy and detail that the real thing almost seems like a let down. For me, my formative years came when if you wanted to play with trains, you had to do it physically, not virtually. My kids are starting off in the virtual world, so it definitely takes more to get them involved. Even I have to admit that things like Rail Simulator are pretty cool; nothing like getting IN the train and running a route without worrying about derailments, blown fuses, dead train batteries, dirty track, smoke fluid, etc. As long as the computer boots, the trains run.

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Even I have to admit that things like Rail Simulator are pretty cool; nothing like getting IN the train and running a route without worrying about derailments, blown fuses, dead train batteries, dirty track, smoke fluid, etc. As long as the computer boots, the trains run.

No doubt about it, the robots/machines, in their various forms, are slowly but surely taking over. Say goodbye to problem solving, individual creative expression, and hands-on or direct association with things (and people) in the world around us. Won't happen overnight, but the course is pretty well set. Fortunately, I won't have to worry about it.

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Ted, Interesting you mentioned Airwire. I did a repair of a G scale with the Airwire and Phoenix sound system. Also had the Battery pack.

Certainly the way to go for outdoor G layouts.

Not on my G scale layout. That Airwire/Phoenix setup will cost at least $400.00 per locomotive and you still have to figure in the cost of batteries.

My G layout is capable of being powered with up to 80 amps of DC power at 30 volts on the rails. I have passenger trains that draw up to 16 amps each with the lights on...that's a lot of batteries! DCC can't touch this layout but guess what? DCS does a fine job on it

I tried DCC on my layout and it worked..kind of but the passenger train engines couldn't get up to speed as DCC is limited to only 24 volts on the rails. DCC large scale boosters and decoders are very power hungry as they'll use 3-5 volts right off the top. DCS uses maybe 1 volt.

When I get the yerning to go DCC all I do is drag out my 400 page QSI Magnum Decoder instruction manual and start reading...I soon become glossy eyed and fall to sleep

Quality discussion hidden under a crappy thread title.

I agree Rail Reading.

A great topic hidden by its title. Maybe someone should change the topic to something like "Command Control System Comparisons".

Steve

quote:

Quality discussion hidden under a crappy thread title.

I also agree, but I'm not going to change it. The author of the thread can certainly do so, but if I get into the practice of changing thread topics so they make more sense and have some meaning, It will evolve into a full time job.

Not to mention, that I would never find it again.

quote:

Originally posted by CRH:

quote:

Ted, Interesting you mentioned Airwire. I did a repair of a G scale with the Airwire and Phoenix sound system. Also had the Battery pack.

Certainly the way to go for outdoor G layouts.

Not on my G scale layout. That Airwire/Phoenix setup will cost at least $400.00 per locomotive and you still have to figure in the cost of batteries.

My G layout is capable of being powered with up to 80 amps of DC power at 30 volts on the rails. I have passenger trains that draw up to 16 amps each with the lights on...that's a lot of batteries! DCC can't touch this layout but guess what? DCS does a fine job on it

I tried DCC on my layout and it worked..kind of but the passenger train engines couldn't get up to speed as DCC is limited to only 24 volts on the rails. DCC large scale boosters and decoders are very power hungry as they'll use 3-5 volts right off the top. DCS uses maybe 1 volt.

When I get the yerning to go DCC all I do is drag out my 400 page QSI Magnum Decoder instruction manual and start reading...I soon become glossy eyed and fall to sleep

Wow, ever find dead electricuted animals on the rails? Do you have to clean the rails alot?

Many of the Outdoor Garden G members in my area use the wireless and batteries. No track cleaning and they seem to enjoy it, but you are right can't use too many items that our power hungry with batteries. G

The solution to the train electronics going out of date quickly.
Run the wheels of them as soon as you get the critters and get your moneys worth!
Run the heck out of it 1000 scale miles or so till your sick of looking at it then sell it on the bays mint only tested for a short while.

What.

Those bums do it all the time.

Having said all that of course I do not!

The thing about PS2 locomitives that makes them really unique is that they run so well in.... conventional mode.

Other than the quality of the sound (which is clearly bettered by Railsounds), there is nothing that touches them there. You can forego command cotrol entirely and still obtain realistic speed control, coupler activation and sound effects (provided you use a quality tranformer). They're so much better in conventional control that it's hard to understand why other manufacturers have never responded to this.