MTH 2 rail locomotivs

Just the recent PS-3, which is well worth the upgrade from any earlier MTH control.

As noted, the PS3 equipped locos are compatible out of the box with DCC systems.  While I wouldn't shy away from a PS2 equipped loco it will require some conversion to DCC.  Either the soon to be released PS3 upgrade boards, or pull out the PS2 stuff and install the DCC decoder(s) of your choice.  Not difficult but it does give you a sense of what Dr. Frankenstein must have gone through to bring the monster to life!

Either the soon to be released PS3 upgrade boards

Mike

Do you have any news when this will be?

Just out of mercenary curiosity, I was wondering the same thing.  The last "official MTH spokesperson" word I saw was Andy E. saying at the last York probably 3Q 2013.

Best, SZ

What's the current rating on your system, Dave?

Proto 3 will work with Digitrax. But people will not tell you is that the proto 3 DCS system will not allow you to program ( or fine tune ) using the Digitrax or NCE system. DCS is a porietary system!  DCS does not have all the features that Digitrax and NCE systems have. If you do use mth locos, beware that they are not like HO and N. The 2-rail mth locos have under the frame mounted handrails just like the toy 3-railers and are not as prototypical like the other popular scales. I suggest you look at a 2-rail mth loco before purchasing. If  you can tolerate these standards, then enjoy. Coming from HO or N scales you do have to lower your standards like the wide, out of scale track dimensions, less accurate (prototypical) details, or problems with DCS the third wheel in the control system game as to Digitrax and NCE. If none of this bothers you. Then you picked a great scale. I personally avoid mth because the locos do not meet my standards. My opinion of course. Stephen nw2124

Thanks for the info. My experience on the three-rail side of the house has been it's hard to get to 10 amps unless you're running passenger trains with several lighted cars, plus a freight or two on the same line. A few years ago I ran a freight with four powered units and it only drew 7 amps.

The new PS3 engines will allow you to fine tune them with which ever DCC system you have. I've done it with both O and HO. There are also a few guys at the shop I work for you have done it.  When HO PS3 first came out you could not do this, but since then MTH has made all of the DCC functions available. I have even upgraded some of the first HO's with the new functions. Since I fix these I have had to learn how to run DCC. Personally I don't get what's so great about DCC other than it's a NMRA standard.

But rest asure PS3 will work just fine on DCC and you can do all the programing you want.

After thought: I will say watch what you are doing when you do prgram them, I've had a few that I had to reset. It's pretty easy to mess up and push to many buttons when you are programing them.

Ralph

Thanks Ralph. Stephen

 What I run is mainly MTH 2 rail. They're a great value. I would have got more Atlas w/TMCC but they got phased out when I entered O scale. The one switcher w/tmcc I bought was also a great deal. I think MTH's developers are forward thinking with their ability to run w/ dcc now (unlike some people here).

 I've seen some high end brass models that did not run any better, they were not better detailed, and yet they costed a whole lot more. But if you want the value to melt them down someday ......

 The MTH engines have great trucks that will run forever. The smoke units are the best. The boards are programable and can even change out the soundsets. You can lashup their engines together without any huge programming ordeals. I have hauled 75 car trains with ten of their engines pulling and pushing with smooth performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrkZo35c08E&feature=plcp

 Of course many don't use smoke. Some would rather stare at one perfect engine than have anything less. To each's own.

 Now if you'd like to look at better models surely go ahead. There are some great examples out there:

http://www.overlandmodels.com/showroom.php?scale=2

or

http://www.3rdrail.com/

and many more....

 Just don't get rammed out of something because of a negative post. A lot of hype went around MTH's HO releases that got way out of hand. When I joined this forum, there was a poster who attacked me just because I bought a MTH engine. I will never understand his point! I just tuned him out. Too bad, really. Maybe he had something positive to say about something, I just never read it here. So I avoided his brand to my loss? When I did check them out, they were worse. Why argue?

 Just my opinion, of course, and maybe a growing base of forward thinking others.

     (really.. it's the handrails?.... lower your standards because of HO or N?? have you actually seen the stuff out there???)

 Now should we just answer the questions asked or lay the opinions on so thick it smells??  Maybe sales are down somewhere else???? I'm reminded of a question that was asked to me. "Why do you run two rail when you're not the typical stuck up grumpy old man? Why do you go through the extra work? Is it worth it?"

 I'm starting to ask myself now. I thought I was having fun....maybe I'm not? Maybe I'm just settling? Let's see how long my post lasts......

Face it engineer Joe, mth has more problems than handrails compared to HO and N scales. Have you bought any InterMountain, Athearn Genesis lines lately, I have. Your also talking old school about brass. Have you bought a O Scale Key E unit or a Sunset E7, I have. I have bought and run a mth loco, not my cup of tea. The newer brass and plastic from Sunset, Key, Overland will blow mth out of the water compared to running and accurate prototype details. I buy to runs my models. I am sorry doing specific comparisons leaves mth at lower standards. Not my opinion but fact. I have HO, O, and G 1/32 scale. Why is it when someone points of the truth you call it negative because you disagree. Fact is Fact. If you enjoy mth, more power to you, but don't knock it when someone expresses their opinion that you don't like. Each person is entitled to what they like and dislikes points about detail problems, doesn't make it negative. It's called informing others!. I dislike 3-rail, but I run it every week at a friend’s house because he enjoys it. I still have a right to dislike it!

Stephen

 Well then.....informing some hype about not being able to program....telling a new poster that he shouldn't even look at them because you don't...... yeah, that's the truth. I should expect that if I paid four times the amount, the loco should be better. The part about what you run doesn't add weight to your opinion.

 If you want to post about better models, show them. Talk about them. Just stop blasting neg stuff about others that in the case you provided and then did not edit, just was not true.

 "But people will not tell you is that the proto 3 DCS system will not allow you to program ( or fine tune ) using the Digitrax or NCE system."

 What's wrong, you didn't have luck with programming? Maybe you should have got help on the DCS site.

I'd run a cheap Lionel starter set engine in 2 rail mode if it was easy to convert them. Some people can spend a couple of thousand dollars on an engine. Some can't or don't want to. I've converted traditional size Lionel cars to scale wheels and weathered them before too. It's a hobby. Do it your way.

I think Davefro answered the original posters question quite well. 

Okay, great, we've got some spirit here. 

Before reading this thread I thought the MTH 2 rail versions of diesels came with the handrails extended. Can some others confirm this or set me straight?

Buddy

As stated above, all Protosound 3 locomotives will run on DCS or DCC. They will also run conventionally on AC or DC power. 

Be advised that you will need to get 16 volts to the locomotive to be able to operate over the full speed range in conventional mode With any Proto 2 or Proto 3 locomotive.  Start up will come at 8 volts.  The motor will never see more than 12 volts in either conventional or command mode.  In conventional or command the electronics use pulse width modulation to control the commanded motor speed.  In "conventional" AC or DC the track power really acts as a speed command. 

Also, do not use a DC pulse power pack with a Proto 2 or 3 locomotive.  The internal pulse width modulation electronics don't like seeing incoming pulsed DC.  It is a case of too much of a good thing.

All Protosound 2 O scale locomotives that were originally offered in a factory 2 rail version can be run with conventional AC, Conventional DC or with DCS on AC or DC power.  The item number will be 20-XXXX-2.  The 20- means O scale Premier Line and the -2 at the end of the number signifies 2 rail with RP-25 wheels.  When running a Proto 2 locomotive on two rails in DCS mode it is necessary to switch polarity when operating off of a reverse loop, wye or turntable just as it would be with conventional DC.  The DCS signal is polarity sensitive and the locomotive can't see it if the polarity changes.  Proto3 locomotives will look for the signal on both rails and switch internally to find and maintain the incoming DCS command signal.

Proto3 is about the best O Scale sound decoder out there. In several respects it has no equal.  And I say that as a satisfied Tsunami customer in HO.

Proto 3 has the only precise and repeatable speed control available in 2 rail O scale.  The sound quality is very good.  The steam locomotives have precise synchronization of smoke and sound that is integrated with the motor control feedback so changes in speed and motor current draw change the sound and smoke output.  It does all that without any extra cams or magnetic switches.  Diesel sounds are also very good with correct prime movers for each type of locomotive, eight throttle notches and a variety of horns. 

If you don't like a sound file it can be changed for free if you have a TIU and a PC.  Your LHS might also offer to do a sound file change for you.  Be aware that MTH "Sound Files" are actually complete sound, command and motor control files and are a little different than what you might be used to in DCC where you might be able to change or select a different bell, horn or prime mover sound without changing the entire file.  This can be a big deal on steam locomotives if you like another sound file but it has a different gear ratio or driver size or both.  In that case changing sound files will throw off the chuff rate and the speed control.

If you read the MR main and DCC forums there were initially several frequent posters who were Protosound 3 detractors when it first came out.  Since then a lot of guys have bought MTH HO Proto 3 locomotives, love them and are quick to say so.  MTH has also made common DCC features like custom speed mapping available on all the recent Proto 3 locomotives (all the O scale and all the HO diesels) when running in DCC mode.  Any recent HO Proto 3 thread over there will usually include one Boo Bird with technically outdated or just plain incorrect "facts" or opinions to offer and several posters who use Proto 3 on DCC layouts, are very pleased with it and will step up with actual facts and informed opinions.

Two rail O may have a lot in common with HO. 

 The handrails are extended down on the fixed pilots.

Joe is correct in saying that MTH 2 rail locomotives DO NOT have the shortened handrails and swinging pilots like the 3 rail versions. However, this was not always the case. Back in the late '90s when MTH had their first try at 2 rail, the locomotives would come with fixed pilots but the handrails were shortened. They were basically exactly like the 3 rail versions except that MTH attached the pilot to the frame.

I have one PS 3 locomotive and I love it. It runs great, sounds good and quickly became my favorite engine to operate. I use it with my NCE DCC system.

I think MTH has come a long way since that first venture into O scale and make a quality product. Is the MTH as detailed and as accurate as Key or Overland? No, but it usually costs a lot less. I can't say anything about how a Key or Overland will run because I don't have any of their engines.

BTW, what's great about DCC is that the command signal gets to the engine every time. Whenever I hit a button with DCC I always get an immediate response from the locomotive.

Joe is not correct! The mth handrails do go below the side frames and are attached to a wire running lengthwise under the frame. Joe is also not correct that I said "telling a new poster that he shouldn't even look at them..." and I quote Myself..."I suggest you look at a 2-rail mth loco before purchasing." Joe also needs to reread all post before commenting and twisting words that were never said! By the way Joe, I have posted "better" models that I own on this forum, last model was my Key N&W one of a kind E6. Look up my past post. I have even posted my layout which has been on tours. Has yours? Not bragging, just telling you to do your research and get your facts right. Mth 2-rail does have toy 3-rail traits whether you call that negative or not, they still have them. If you enjoy the mth locos, there is nothing wrong with that. Model Railroading is to be fun. My fun just requires more railroad specific prototype details. I not knocking you. What you do is your prerogative. Have fun Joe, and Happy Thanksgiving and God bless. Stephen

.........?

Ooops, you're right! you did tell him to look at them. My bad.

 My layout is not built. When it is, I'll show it to you first! (for approval). I would like to know what is wrong with it. I can't see it thru my own eyes. Oh wait, maybe it won't be good enough after you've showed us yours? .....and I missed it. So you have a nice day to now.

 I'm out. I'd better start selling things. I've learned the truth. My eyes have been opened.......I'll sell all my engines so I can obtain a perfect one......Hmmmmmmm

 Wait, what handrails are we talking about? I'm wrong again?????

Joe is not correct! The mth handrails do go below the side frames and are attached to a wire running lengthwise under the frame.

Yes, you are right about that. I thought you guys were talking about the handrails by the pilot. My mistake.

I'm not crazy about the MTH handrails but they don't bother me nearly as much as other things such as swinging pilots, short handrails, and large gaps between the frame and the trucks.

Joe: It doesn't matter what I think about your layout and you do not need my approval!

As you progress on it I would love to see it. We all can learn from each other and I am sure you have a lot to offer. We all have our specialties and I wish I had more. Take care Joe! Stephen Happy Thanksgiving and may we all count our blessings.

here is a MTH Trainmaster in 2 rail, pictures should answer your questions.

Pete,

that is one nice DL&W trainmaster. did you perform the 2R conversion yourself?

as a Lackawanna fan, I may spring for a MTH engine after all.

Not being terribly picky, I opted for the K-Line TM.  It was not brass, but on the other hand at five feet it looked as good as any, and for a hundred bucks, plus thirty for the 2- rail kit, who could argue?

But from the photos, this MTH would easily compare in detail with the high priced spread.  Try it side by side, and then tell us it is lacking in detail and fidelity?  It looks like a quantum leap above the K-Line model.

The MTH scale wheels models are already "2-railed" from the factory.  This means 2-rail wheelsets, fixed pilots, and predrilled & tapped Kadee mounting holes already on the model.  All that's needed to be done is buy and install Kadee or equivalent couplers as they are not included with them.  The models also have a selector switch so that you can switch from 3-rail to 2-rail operation as shown in the 3rd picture down on DL&W Pete's post above.

That eventually got to me, too. Darn you guys and your small flanges, fixed pilots, Kadee couplers, close-coupled equipment and layouts with sweeping curves.  

chris,

this is a factory 2 rail model, jason from jasons train shop found this one for me. it took him awhile to find it, I picked it up july 1st. you can call him to see if he can find another 2 rail model.

Pete that is nice....

Pete's right on A picture speaks a thousand words here's a couple more.     cTr...Choose the Right.

John, or Pete:

is the -2 version (2 railed) the only variation with fixed pilots? if I purchased the -3 version (dummy) is it going to set up like the 3R version?

I have the MTH Premier 3-rail Lackawanna Train Master; and, in my opinion, it is one of the best all-round quality O scale locomotive models I have seen, to date. Everything on this model is well done, and the sounds are great... love the prime mover.

Regardless, of it's decent price; the model is a standout... a benchmark model.

Rick

Stephen,

I really like your BNSF GEVO; that paint scheme is well-suited for that particular model.

Rick

Dave,

Couldn't agree more. Perhaps even looking into fixing the pilots like Lionel has done on the their 4 axle locos, and maybe even closing the gap on their larger 6 axle locos like Lionel has done.

But rest asure PS3 will work just fine on DCC and you can do all the programing you want.

Does that mean that with Decoder Pro I can go in and program the cv's for say the voltage to the smoke unit heaters or adjust the various sound levels?

Agreed. I'd buy them, especially geeps as adding a dummy to a powered unit is perfect for a shorter local freight.