MTH DCS and conventional lionel

Will switching back and forth with the DCS remote system be difficult?

Not at all.  Supply power to the variable input of the tiu, and wire the track from the corresponding variable output.  Use the fixed voltage connection on the z1000 brick to power the aux input to the tiu, or jump variable input 1 and fixed input 1 together.  The tiu gets power from the aux or fixed 1 input.

On your dcs remote,  select track (whichever variable output you are using, usually output 1) and use the thumb wheel to scroll the voltage up/down.  If you are running dcs trains this is just a short extra step before powering them up.  If you are running conventional trains, the dcs controller is now a walk around throttle to change the voltage to the track. 

Easy as pie.

Some recommend putting the TVS closest to the engine, including even installing the TVS inside the engine.

Is there any pro and con regarding installing  a TVS diode inside the engine?

Arnold

Arnold, one pro of installing TVS diodes inside each engine is that if you take your toys to somebody else's house, you don't have to worry if their tracks and circuitry are protected - you're covered!!

For my engines/cars that contain electronics, I add a TVS inside each engine at the point where the power comes to a board from the collector assy. They are cheap enough, and rather than having only one diode to protect everything on a block or a whole power district, I have multiple points of protection, insuring that even if one TVS fails in the "open" position rather than the more common "short" type failure, you will still have protection via the other TVS diodes installed in other cars/engines. A shorted diode makes itself known quickly, but a single "open" diode gives you no indication that it has failed and is exactly the same as not having any protection at all.

I think in reality the location may not be that critical - I know many folks just stick one TVS across each transformer output line, but to me, I like to put the diode right next to the device it is protecting.

George

Thank you

I have a Lionel ZW-L transformer connected to the TIU running 2 mainlines with 7 spurs and 2 sidings.  I have all PS 2 & 3 engines, but would like to run 2 post-war Lionel engines occasionally.  Can this be done by running one Lionel on one main and a MTH on the other main ?

Thanks, Mike Miller

Mike Miller, HHarvey, I run conventional lionel and mth on my variable tracks all the time while running ps2/3 engines on the other loops, powered solely by one of the fixed or remaining variable dcs output (you have 2 fixed and 2 variable per tiu). As long as the line running the conventional engines is fed by a variable output, you will have no problems.  The dcs system is a breeze to control the voltage on the variable lines and run conventional trains, while also operating ps2/3 engines on separate lines fed by the other outputs.   Some guys try to run ps2 or 3 locos on the same variable track along with conventional. This has never worked well for me as the command engines require too much voltage and the conventional engines run too fast when on the same track.

Piece of cake, I do it all the time.

Thanks Strap and John for the info.  Now that I know it's possible, what connections are made between the ZW-L and the TIU?  What outputs on the ZW-L connect to what channels on the TIU ?  Am I correct in assuming conventional can run on only one track and not the other or both ? 

Mike

@Mike Miller posted:

Thanks Strap and John for the info.  Now that I know it's possible, what connections are made between the ZW-L and the TIU?  What outputs on the ZW-L connect to what channels on the TIU ?  Am I correct in assuming conventional can run on only one track and not the other or both ?

Mike

I have two z4000 transformers powering my pike and my tiu, but a friend of mine uses the zw-l with his dcs system. Not too sure how he connects, but maybe others here can chime in.

There are two variable channels and two fixed channels on the TIU.  You can run conventional equipment using the DCS remote when powered by either of the variable channels of the TIU.  For tracks powered by the fixed channels, you can run conventional if you have a variable voltage transformer powering that channel.

Power goes through the TIU from the input side to the output side, and you can power one or more channels from a single transformer, or each channel from a separate transformer output.  Mine is fairly simple, four transformers, each powering one of the inputs of the TIU.  Obviously, two of the loops can only run command with my setup, but the mainline and sidings have variable voltage control from the DCS remote with this configuration.

GRJ ... ref your above 8 Apr post photo.  Looks like three DCS Remote Commander control units at top of your controls panel photo.  Are you using those for "DCS watchdog" purposes on your sidings?  Do you use them on occasion with the Remote Commander handheld remote control for easy-to-do actual start/stop/whistle/bell/PFA/etc purposes?

Tom

Correct, those are the DCS-RC boxes with the watchdog board in them.  The WD generators are on all my loops and sidings except the mainline.  I don't see the point of having it on the mainline, so I didn't bother adding one there.

I never use the DCS-RC handheld remote as it wouldn't work in the full DCS environment.

First off, the watchdog resets the DCS-RC ever second, so the DCS-RC is never in a state to actually receive and process commands from it's IR remote.

Second, unless the DCS locomotive is factory reset, the DCS-RC won't control it.  If it's factory reset, then it's not able to be controlled by the full DCS system.  Given these facts, trying to use the DCS-RC with the TIU is a Catch-22 losing situation.

Hi - I need help from you talented and kind members please!  Here's what I'm trying to do.

I want to run DCS, TMCC and conventional on all tracks. Conventional will run on it's own while DCS and TMCC locos are powered down in stub-end sidings controlled by SP/ST switches. DCS and TMCC will run together controlling multiple trains simultaneously.  I want all train control, including conventional, to be through the DCS remote, except for the stub end sidings. 

I wish what jhz563above posted would work on my layout but it's not a happening thing.  Why do my conventional engines take off like bats out of ****?  Is it a failed TIU channel? What's causing the apparent signal loss on VAR-1?  I need help to fix this please!

"Supply power to the variable input of the tiu, and wire the track from the corresponding variable output.  Use the fixed voltage connection on the z1000 brick to power the aux input to the tiu, or jump variable input 1 and fixed input 1 together.  The tiu gets power from the aux or fixed 1 input.

On your dcs remote,  select track (whichever variable output you are using, usually output 1) and use the thumb wheel to scroll the voltage up/down.  If you are running dcs trains this is just a short extra step before powering them up.  If you are running conventional trains, the dcs controller is now a walk around throttle to change the voltage to the track."

This seems to be the most logical approach that meets my needs but I can't make it work.

My layout is a single track main (Atlas),  a small 3-track yard, a double track station with two cross-overs, an interchange track and 6 sidings.

Layout Diagram

The yard is an extension of the right hand side, below the "H".

DCS runs fine on all the locos I've tried.  TMCC is not set up yet (I wanted to get this problem fixed first).

My problem is with conventional. 

When I first turn on layout power, any non-DCS loco takes off down the track like a bat out of **** and won't respond to any actions on the DCS remote. Response is the same for TMCC locos because they aren't programmed yet.  If I have an idle DCS loco on the track, it behaves normally.  If I select TRack 1 from the Track menu on the DCS remote, the DCS loco sits idle and is unaffected.   With TRack 1 still selected, if I carefully place the conventional loco on the track it sits idle with the lights on and won't budge at any speed setting. If I then select the DCS loco using the remote's ENG button, it runs normally.

• The TIU remote is programmed using TRack 1 (corresponding to the VAR-1 TIU channel), DCS is running on FIX-1.
• Power is from MTH Z750 transformers on each of these channels as well as Aux.
• On the output side VAR-1 and FIX-1 are bridged across the TIU terminals and a single pair of AWG-14 leads run from FIX-1 to the track.
• The layout is a single "block".
• DCS remote is still version 4.3 - I haven't updated yet.

TIU connections

I hate to repeat this issue but I've read many of the others and now need your help to make it right.

Thanks!

Program the TIU for variable operation on the variable channels and they'll come up at zero volts.

Hold on, you have fixed1 jumpered to Variable 1 output!!!!

No, no, no, no.

Also, since you have aux power in, you do not need anything in or out of fixed1

There are mistakes (normal) and then there are MISTAKES (ALL CAPS).

Wiring any 2 TIU channel outputs in parallel is the latter.

Thanks GRJ and Barry - Merry Christmas to both of you.

In an earlier iteration of this project, I tried wiring VAR-1 completely away from the TIU rather than bridging it to FIX-1 and the behavior was the same. So if they're bridged I guess the conventional voltage signals get confused with FIX-11 and get lost in the TIU somewhere.  I figured they'd end up  hitting the track on the same pair of wires anyway so bridging was just as good.   

But I will   go back to joining the wires to the track AFTER the TIU rather than making the connection AT the TIU. - not sure I understand the difference but it fits the scenario.  BTW I didn't see a way to specificially assign my variable track to the VAR-1 channel on the remote's track set-up menu.  I see two channels that are numbered 1 and 2 and assumed that's how the TIU assigned them.  Can you explain a little more what "program the TIU for variable operaion" means? Did I miss something?  (I have ready Barry's book).

Why would the power side affect this issue?  I have reasons to want to power each channel and the Aux. (E.g. Aux to make sure wake-up signl is ready without a big transformer needing to be powered up when I'm not using the layout).

I so appreciate your quick responses - I can be eduated!

Thanks

As Vernon pointed out, and I totally missed in your picture, you CAN NOT ever parallel any of the outputs from the TIU!  The reason that having VAR1 separate didn't work is because you didn't configure the variable channel as variable I suspect.  In sort, DO NOT PARALLEL THE TIU OUTPUTS!

But it's OK to use the same wires for both channels all the way to the track?  Sorry to be so dense.

NO, not if they're going to the same track!  There's no difference between connecting them in parallel at the TIU or at the track, the electrical result is the same, they're connected together!

The only time the TIU channel outputs should happen to be tied together is when a train is crossing a power district that is powered by separate channels.  That's a strictly temporary situation that only lasts until the transition.

If you tie the two channels together permanently, you risk cooking the variable channel FET drivers, and/or blowing channel fuses.  In addition DCS won't work as the two channel DCS outputs will be stepping on each other.

Thanks John.

I'd put this in my original post:  "I want all train control, including conventional, to be through the DCS remote, except for the stub end sidings".

Do I need to eliminate this requirement or is there really a design for it?   I guess I need to go back and read the manuals again.  Maybe I need to change the design.  If you have quick answers, I'd appreciate it. 

Thanks

You can do that, my layout is wired for that functionality for the mainline and freight yard.  If you power the track(s) through the variable channels, you can run conventional with the DCS remote, if you set the voltage up to full voltage, you can run DCS and/or TMCC throuth the DCS remote.  For TMCC, you use the MTH serial cable from the TMCC or Legacy command base to the TIU.

Got it, John. In fact, my son figured it out and we tried it. I’m using the VAR-1 channel fo run everything through. Switching between DCS and conventional does require quite a few button pushes and at my age (75), I’m going to need checklists to avoid dead or runaway locos. My son BTW is 24 and knows more about trains than anyone I know - everything from DCS to being a certified  train engineer and conductor.

Many thanks again and a Happy New Year.

The way I run is with the variable channel in fixed mode.  When I power up the layout I'm ready to run DCS and TMCC/Legacy.  However, all you have to do to use them in conventional mode is to select a track and press the TZV softkey and the channel reverts to variable mode and the track voltage goes to zero  A power cycle on that channel input returns it to fixed mode.  There's really very few button pushes involved that you wouldn't be doing anyway for conventional running.

Thanks again John. You’ve been most helpful. Happy New Year.

Trains are running fine, even with just one Z750 on VAR-2 and a small rransfotmer to the Aux input. So I’m saving space as well.

Great, I would recommend a better power supply if you're running multiple trains, a 75 watt power source is pretty marginal for more than one train.  I use four Lionel PowerHouse 180 bricks for my power, each one is capable of supplying 180 watts.  The PH180 brick also has one of the best circuit breakers on a transformer, so I don't need extra circuit protection.  I'm not at all enamored with the circuit protection of the MTH Z500/750/1000 bricks, they're simple and slow thermal circuit breakers.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Great, I would recommend a better power supply if you're running multiple trains, a 75 watt power source is pretty marginal for more than one train.  I use four Lionel PowerHouse 180 bricks for my power, each one is capable of supplying 180 watts.  The PH180 brick also has one of the best circuit breakers on a transformer, so I don't need extra circuit protection.  I'm not at all enamored with the circuit protection of the MTH Z500/750/1000 bricks, they're simple and slow thermal circuit breakers.

John,

What do you think about the circuit breaker(s) on the Z4000?

MELGAR

@MELGAR posted:

John,

What do you think about the circuit breaker(s) on the Z4000?

MELGAR

The Z-4000 has electronic protection as well as the thermal breakers, it's sufficient by itself.  That's why I was specific as to the Z transformers I was mentioning.

Thanks. I’ll double up with another Z750 because I have one. I also have a couple of fast circuit breakers which I’ll put in front of them. Thanks.

Bad idea to parallel transformers, that's not the way to solve this issue!