What engines do you have?  That will help you decide.  If I were just starting now... I'd move forward, not try to figure out how to make something soon to be obsolete (or not depending on what you read) work.

With all of the uncertainty, I'd sit on the DCS bench for now, wait and see.  If there is a "new company" one would think they might update what they have or make a new product to sell.

This coming from an MTH DCS guy.  

Have Fun!

Ron

Yes.  MTH stopped offering the TIU/Remote set (50-1001).  You'll need to find both separately.  Or you can purchase a TIU and WIU.  The WIU will allow you to use a phone/tablet and the MTH app in lieu of the remote.  Your call.  The remotes were rumored to be phased out before MTH's closing announcement.  So they're getting tough to find at a decent price.  There is supposed to be a new version coming soon.

Ron045 I don't have that many engines. All the engines I have only work on AC right now. I would have to get new engines for DCS.

David, do you have MTH PS2 or PS3 engines?

Mike, no I don't. 

Okay.  I'm with Ron then.  Given the uncertainty of MTH, I'd just plop down $300 or so for a Legacy system and move on.  If DCS gets a new life, you can make that decision then.  My first answer still applies though.  If you want DCS, you'll need to get a TIU/WIU.  You can find a remote on the secondary market or hope that last batch finally gets delivered to dealers.

Thanks Ron and Mike for the advice. 

One thing you could do while building the layout is wire it for DCS. The difference is you want to run all feeds as twisted pairs power and return. TMCC/Legacy lets you get away with single wire feed to your various center rail locations with a common return. Its good practice anyway even though it will cost a bit more for the added wires.

Pete

Words from a rookie.

I bought TMCC less than a year ago because it is available for $100-150 less than a new Legacy system.   I bought a system that had been used one time, from a LHS, for less than $200.  Then for less than $60 I bought a second handheld. The TMCC system is well shaken out, and a used one (FROM A RELIABLE SELLER) is a good buy.   Everything is working fine, and after a year I still haven't used all of its capabilities.  I don't operate switches, accessories or have a PowerMaster power supply that can be controlled by the handheld. 

(BUT I understand that the ZW-L I DO use CAN be controlled by the handheld- I just haven't taken the time to figure it out.  I would like to be able to correct circuit breaker derailment trips w/o walking around to the transformer.)

Most important to me, in order:

- operation using a handheld     

- Odyssey speed control (!!) and remember- the early TMCC engines using AC/ open frame "Pullmor" motors (so- up to 2000 and later and including Century Club locos) cannot have speed control.   These will slow and speed up for grades and voltage.   Only DC motored locos can have speed control as I understand it.  Odyssey SC is a major feature in my mind.  (And the MTH system has only DC motors, so speed control is probably standard.)

- Traintalk and Trainsounds features.

You can still find new TMCC systems and pre-owned ones for very little- here's one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONE...d:g3AAAOSwWBVe-K0M

TMCC locomotives are widely available, both new (NOS) and pre-owned.  They have for me plenty of features, especially for the $300- $500 price range- Lion Chief Plus territory.    BUT, remember that even the new  "in the box" TMCC locomotives are now up to 20 or more years old. 

So- I think when buying used, the previous owner has shaken out the bugs, generally.  I buy New Legacy locomotives if they are what I want and knowing that I can't use 100% of the Legacy features using TMCC.  But I would say used is even better for Legacy stuff- let the first owner deal with any issues.

Important:  the TMCC system including Odyssey and Trainsounds is also used for Atlas O, Third Rail,  and the  (now discontinued) K Line and K-Line by Lionel equipment.  Obviously Legacy will also run these.

Hi Norton I was already going to do a main line and feeds for power. But I did not know that the legacy system only used one line. Ill have to look in to how to wire that up.

You still need two wires for Legacy but many just put one wire from the transformer to the outside rail. Then wire the various blocks or loops with wires  to the center rail only. DCS needs both power and return run together to all of the blocks and loops.

Pete

Everyone has opinions, my layout is 24 years old this September/October, and we run all TMCC/Legacy, and one of my reasons for Legacy is that Lionel continues to repair it on a no charge basis, they send an RA, shipping label, fix it and return it in a fair time frame.  I’ve grown up with Lionel, I’m 76 real soon, and they’ve been a fun game to play.  TMCC began in 1994 and in 2006 it became Legacy and is upgradeable. I was out of the hobby for several years and in 1995 a friend told me about the new changes that Lionel was making in the way we run our trains, therefore I jumped back into the hobby. I have stayed loyal to Lionel and they have stayed loyal to me and many of my friends here in the middle Tennessee area. Lou Kovach enhanced Lionels System with many components that make it possible to utilize the Cab 1/Cab 2 Remotely operate switches, turn on and off blocks of track, operate accessories, uncouplers, that really enhances the way we run our trains with Friends.  Give a kid a remote and watch his eyes light up as he/she runs there trains... Its a really fun time in the Hobby.  One thing for sure, Legacy Steam engines  and Diesels run so smoothly and the sounds are so realistic. If your going to build a new layout, a good control system might make the hobby a lot more fun for You. Happy Railroading 

All the above.  Why limit yourself?  They are all great.  I like Legacy over DCS. I still enjoy my MTH engines.  If you can get a Rev L TIU you don’t have to worry about any special wiring, or magic bulbs to fix signal issues.

You've gotten some very sensible and timely advice from those above, so I'll leave it at that .  

Hi David, way late to this party but I am going through the same process now as you were.  One thing I found very interesting (Warning, I am an engineer) was that the TMCC and Legacy are radio signals.  Not at all like my DCC which was digital using the tracks to carry the signal which is picked up through the wheels.  TMCC and Legacy uses the outside rail as an antenna (one half of the antenna with ground the other half) for a very low frequency radiated signal picked up by antennas in each loco.  The TMCC radio frequency is somewhere around 100KHz (cannot remember exactly) which requires an enormous antenna to really radiate (3e8/1e5/2 = 1.5Km) so I suspect that it may be working like RFID which needs close proximity (you know, train on track).  Neat system none the less which apparently Neil came up with working with some silicon valley pals that had helped start Nintendo and such.  Who knew?

@Robbin posted:

Hi David, way late to this party but I am going through the same process now as you were.  One thing I found very interesting (Warning, I am an engineer) was that the TMCC and Legacy are radio signals.  Not at all like my DCC which was digital using the tracks to carry the signal which is picked up through the wheels.  TMCC and Legacy uses the outside rail as an antenna (one half of the antenna with ground the other half) for a very low frequency radiated signal picked up by antennas in each loco.  The TMCC radio frequency is somewhere around 100KHz (cannot remember exactly) which requires an enormous antenna to really radiate (3e8/1e5/2 = 1.5Km) so I suspect that it may be working like RFID which needs close proximity (you know, train on track).  Neat system none the less which apparently Neil came up with working with some silicon valley pals that had helped start Nintendo and such.  Who knew?

Here's a good page on how TMCC (and Legacy) work as far as track signals.

Trainfacts TMCC Signal Basics

I had my head in the sand for a long time only running TMCC/Legacy.

One of the best decisions I ever made was to install DCS so I wasn't limited on what I could run.  My roster these days is about 50/50 Legacy/DCS.

Legacy/TMCC without question.Works 99.9% of the time and MTH will be gone and we do not know if DCS will be supported or how long.Also there is the question of parts.Nothing against MTH but I like running trains not shelf queens.Just my opinion

At this point in the history of three-rail manufacturers, there truly is no question.

TMCC or Legacy are your best options.  By far.

I have a DCS system but now hardly run trains as I am afraid the engine electronics will break, and as MTH is (mostly) out of business, no parts or kits to repair them (at least I haven't read of anyone eager to pickup electronics side).  So if they break, instant shelf queens, unless you want to fuss with converting them to AC operation and go back to the old manual throttle days of your youth.

In short boy did I make a wrong decision, shoulda woulda couldla stuck with Lionel or others with TMCC/Legacy type systems that plan to be around for awhile.

But this is just me, your mileage may vary....

@rrman posted:

I have a DCS system but now hardly run trains as I am afraid the engine electronics will break, and as MTH is (mostly) out of business, no parts or kits to repair them (at least I haven't read of anyone eager to pickup electronics side).  So if they break, instant shelf queens, unless you want to fuss with converting them to AC operation and go back to the old manual throttle days of your youth.

In short boy did I make a wrong decision, shoulda woulda couldla stuck with Lionel or others with TMCC/Legacy type systems that plan to be around for awhile.

But this is just me, your mileage may vary....

rrman, that is incorrect.  They can be converted to TMCC.  Run them until they die (if they ever do).

Good advice from everyone.

My vote would also be to get a TMCC/Legacy system first and see how you like running command control with new or used TMCC/Legacy engines (including Lionel's new Lionchief Plus 2.0 engines).

I would wire your transformer power to a terminal block like the one pictured below and then run twisted pairs from the output ports of the block to as many points (drops) along your layout as needed to insure good voltage all the way around your layout. The drops should be relatively evenly spaced out from the block in a "star" shaped pattern, but strict adherence is not required nor do all the drops need to be the same length. Then just connect the TMCC/Legacy "one wire" to any outside rail.

That will also have the benefit of setting you up to run DCS should you decide to do so in the future. If you do get a DCS TIU and remote or use the app, just mount the TIU and disconnect the wires from the transformer to the terminal block and run them into the TIU "IN" connection. Then add new wires from the TIU "OUT" connection to the terminal block.  At that point, you can also disconnect the TMCC/Legacy "one wire" from the track and connect it to the TIU "OUT" connection going to the terminal block.

You cannot run an MTH engine in command control from a TMCC/Legacy remote or app, but you can run a TMCC/Legacy engine from the DCS remote or app (with most, but not necessarily all that Lionel engine's full features).

Both systems also give you the capability of running conventional ("AC") engines, although you may need additional components.

@MikeH posted:

rrman, that is incorrect.  They can be converted to TMCC.  Run them until they die (if they ever do).

Thanks for info.

@rrman posted:

Thanks for info.

I had the same fear.  The good news is, if you fry the MTH electronics, it makes no cost difference.  The MTH boards are removed as part of the TMCC conversion so it doesn't matter if they're dead or alive.  The bad news is, at this time you're probably looking at $350+ to convert one diesel.  I don't run steam so I haven't looked into that.

@MikeH posted:

I had the same fear.  The good news is, if you fry the MTH electronics, it makes no cost difference.  The MTH boards are removed as part of the TMCC conversion so it doesn't matter if they're dead or alive.  The bad news is, at this time you're probably looking at $350+ to convert one diesel.  I don't run steam so I haven't looked into that.

Doing it yourself a ERR Cruise Commander/Rail Sounds Commander install should only cost about $225 for a diesel.

I have both DCS and TMCC on my layout. If the TIU or MTH PS2/PS3 locomotive boards ever die I'll just replace them with TMCC, DCC or whatever. It's the models I want, those aren't "dead" because the boards are bad. Change the boards, done, you've got a running locomotive again. No big deal.

David,

Since you don't own any MTH PS2/3 engines, Legacy is the way to go. While MTH is soon releasing a new wireless TIU product and will be spawning off a new company just to support DCS, it doesn't make sense to buy new MTH engines where repairs and spare parts could get challenging.

@Lou1985 posted:

Doing it yourself a ERR Cruise Commander/Rail Sounds Commander install should only cost about $225 for a diesel.

Sorry, yes.  $350 to have someone else do it.

@MikeH posted:

Sorry, yes.  $350 to have someone else do it.

Ouch. Forgot about labor.

@Lou1985 posted:

Ouch. Forgot about labor.

And there is a "safety factor" in that it is up to the installer to make sure everything works, and if "magic smoke" happens at powerup, its up to him/her to remedy the problem(s).

Wondered if your going to swap boards, and disregarding compatibility, would changing to DCC type system be a better move, as I assume there are more suppliers of DCC boards for two-three rails that revolve around a set of standards than the incompatible DCS/TMCC protocols.

As caveat, I have NOT googled DCC for  three rail trains, so please feel free correct my assumptions.

@rrman posted:

Wondered if your going to swap boards, and disregarding compatibility, would changing to DCC type system be a better move

I don't know.  I didn't look into DCC either.  Legacy/TMCC is fine for now.  I think Legacy will carry us over to the next revolution whatever that is (bluetooth, battery power, etc.).

@rrman posted:

And there is a "safety factor" in that it is up to the installer to make sure everything works, and if "magic smoke" happens at powerup, its up to him/her to remedy the problem(s).

I install all my ERR/PS3 boards. I don't have an issue with letting the "magic smoke out".

@Richie C. posted:

Good advice from everyone.

My vote would also be to get a TMCC/Legacy system first and see how you like running command control with new or used TMCC/Legacy engines (including Lionel's new Lionchief Plus 2.0 engines).

I would wire your transformer power to a terminal block like the one pictured below and then run twisted pairs from the output ports of the block to as many points (drops) along your layout as needed to insure good voltage all the way around your layout. The drops should be relatively evenly spaced out from the block in a "star" shaped pattern, but strict adherence is not required nor do all the drops need to be the same length. Then just connect the TMCC/Legacy "one wire" to any outside rail.

That will also have the benefit of setting you up to run DCS should you decide to do so in the future. If you do get a DCS TIU and remote or use the app, just mount the TIU and disconnect the wires from the transformer to the terminal block and run them into the TIU "IN" connection. Then add new wires from the TIU "OUT" connection to the terminal block.  At that point, you can also disconnect the TMCC/Legacy "one wire" from the track and connect it to the TIU "OUT" connection going to the terminal block.

You cannot run an MTH engine in command control from a TMCC/Legacy remote or app, but you can run a TMCC/Legacy engine from the DCS remote or app (with most, but not necessarily all that Lionel engine's full features).

Both systems also give you the capability of running conventional ("AC") engines, although you may need additional components.

   

Just wanna add a couple of bits on to this.

• TMCC/Legacy are unidirectional radio controlled systems, hence the single wire.
• To control conventional over TMCC/Legacy you need an additional component called a Power Master, I believe.
• DCS is a bi-directional data based system. So the twisted pair and multiple drop properties become a bit more important here. All commands sent to engines are confirmed back to the TIU.
• The DCS TIU has both fixed 18V In/Out ports for command as well as 18V in and conventional out ports. You can use the conventional out ports to operate conventional engines without a conventional transformer.