MTH E8's have arrived at MrMuffin'sTrains - these look good!

If I could two rail them easily, I'd order a set!

Hmmm Erie? Southern??? (Amtrak!! )

I just picked up the Southern version. This is the first time that MTH added ditch lights to their E8's! I now own 5 of the Southern E8 engines. I will be running them in a lash-up (multi unit consist). Video to come.........Rogerw.

Never saw a Erie passenger engine with ditch lights. Got to pass..maybe next time....why do they do stuff like that.

John,  I can't speak for the Erie engine, but the Southern engine definitely has ditch lights. The Southern engine is housed at the North Carolina Transportation Museum in Spencer NC.........rogerw.

Here is a picture of the Southern E8 in Spencer NC.........rogerw.

I attached the wrong picture (engine 2919). The 6900 is the one with the ditch lights.......rogerw.

Are the A units available w/out motors but with basic lighting and smoke?

Am not familiar with the catalog that there are from...

john f penca jr posted:

Never saw a Erie passenger engine with ditch lights. Got to pass..maybe next time....why do they do stuff like that.

The Erie 833 at the "Streamliner Event" here at NCTM.

On  the prototypical E8s/E9s the ditch-lights are easily added and/or removed.

Ron

c.sam posted:

Are the A units available w/out motors but with basic lighting and smoke?

Am not familiar with the catalog that there are from...

Sam, to the best of my knowledge the now production Cab A-units (E's and F's) Non-Powered have some lighting and that IS it.  They have "operating couplers NOT Proto-Couplers on "front."

Ron

What are the two protrusions with a hole in them on the nose of all but the Wabash unit?  Picture of the real Southern 6900 does not have them!

I was all set to order a set but do not like the protrusion.

Also, I do not think MTH is offering an unpowered A unit for any of the road names.

Don

Also, I do not think MTH is offering an unpowered A unit for any of the road names.

Don

That is correct - no non-powered A's..... So far we have sold the most in Southern....

Engineer-Joe posted:

If I could two rail them easily, I'd order a set!

Hmmm Erie? Southern??? (Amtrak!! )

Joe, 

I talked with mike the last time he was at trainstock, they would have to make a new set of molds to get the "fixed" pilot in front of the trucks. Mike has changed the front of these old weaver molds to get the second headlight in the nose door and he said that was not "cheap", also has to design new trucks to make them 3/2 compatible.

I wonder if he could do what atlas did with there F3 A units in 3 rail, in every powered version atlas added a "fixed pilot". You just unscrewed the front pilot from the truck and screwed the fixed to the chassis, it also came with 2 rail couplers.

Recently rode the Crescent from VA to GA.  Not the same engine of course but it's tempting...

"Southern Serves the South"

Thanks for the nice picture. My point was the original units did not have ditch lights period. Why the wabash managed to escape the wild imaginations of product planners will be a great mystery ! thats all !!  IMHO the worst thing ever to ruin the appearance of any locomotive has been those awfull lights. having said that i feel much better. conrail john

I just picked up the Southern version. This is the first time that MTH added ditch lights to their E8's! 
I now own 5 of the Southern E8 engines. I will be running them in a lash-up (multi unit consist). 
Video to come.........Rogerw.

UH that's not correct. MTH placed Ditch lights back in 2011 for the PRR E8's,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyK7IKjX9Js

Ditch lights were on the Conrail e8 for the  OCS set as well.

john f penca jr posted:

Never saw a Erie passenger engine with ditch lights. Got to pass..maybe next time....why do they do stuff like that.

I would have to agree but I don't know if they were advertised as contemporary engines used today that require ditch lights. If that was not the case, MTH should have made them as built without ditch lights. 

To correct a post that I made about MTH E8 engines. I didn't know that there were ditch lights on Pennsylvania and Conrail E8 engines because I don't model those railroads.This is the first Southern set that has ditch lights and I own every Southern E8 set that MTH has made. I think that MTH was trying to recreate the engines that were displayed at the Streamliners at Spencer show that was held June 1st, 2014. Most of the engines that were in excursion service had ditch lights added on them. On the Southern engine it doesn't have Passenger station sounds. It has someone narrating the history of the Southern E8 6900 engine. I'm going to change the sound files(if I can) to the sound files that is on the 2010 version of the Southern E8. Also the ditch lights are MUCH brighter that the ditch lights on my NS Heritage engines.....................rogerw.

DGJONES posted:

What are the two protrusions with a hole in them on the nose of all but the Wabash unit?  Picture of the real Southern 6900 does not have them!

I was all set to order a set but do not like the protrusion.

Also, I do not think MTH is offering an unpowered A unit for any of the road names.

Don

They are "lift rings".  Some RR's had them, some did not.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

DGJONES posted:

What are the two protrusions with a hole in them on the nose of all but the Wabash unit?  Picture of the real Southern 6900 does not have them!

I was all set to order a set but do not like the protrusion.

Also, I do not think MTH is offering an unpowered A unit for any of the road names.

Don

They are "lift rings".  Some RR's had them, some did not.

Thank you Dominic for the response.  I do not think I would ever be able to get over the unsightly lift rings hanging off the front of a beautiful Southern engine.  Those and Roger's revelation that they do not have passenger announcements will keep me from purchasing a set of the Southerns.

Another time when I am glad I did not preorder and waited to see the finished product.

Happy railroading,

Don

Don

Hello Don, You can go to MTH's website and look up the Southern E8 engine (20-20619-1). If you click on the Support tab, you will see the MP3 tab in purple. Click on the MP3 tab, you can hear the actual announcements for the engine..................rogerw.

That Erie is beautiful!

john f penca jr posted:

Thanks for the nice picture. My point was the original units did not have ditch lights period. Why the wabash managed to escape the wild imaginations of product planners will be a great mystery ! thats all !!  IMHO the worst thing ever to ruin the appearance of any locomotive has been those awfull lights. having said that i feel much better. conrail john

The Wabash 1009 is the unit on display at the Virginia Museum of Transportation in Roanoke. It does not currently operate, so mounting ditch lights is not a necessity at this time (and it also doesn't have the nose lift rings). The Southern 6900 had ditch lights mounted for potential trips on NS involving either the steam program or special moves. Unfortunate nature of modern railroading, all diesel locomotives operating as a lead unit must have ditch lights (steam has been grandfathered apparently). 

PRRronbh posted:

john f penca jr posted:

Never saw a Erie passenger engine with ditch lights. Got to pass..maybe next time....why do they do stuff like that.

The Erie 833 at the "Streamliner Event" here at NCTM.

On  the prototypical E8s/E9s the ditch-lights are easily added and/or removed.

Ron

No Erie OR Southern E-Unit would have had ditch lights when they were in regular service.

Ditch lights didn't come into regular use in the U.S. until the mid-1990's, so if one wants these locomotives for modeling anything earlier, like the 1950-60's, they shouldn't be there.

Ditch light presence on a contemporary restored unit is another matter entirely.

Rusty

I just wanna know?? What is the big deal about the ditch lights?? Am I missing something?? As I said in an earlier post, I have 3 of these engines. One has a headlight and mars light, one has just a headlight, and the recent engine has ditch lights. I think that everyone knows that the original prototypical engines didn't have ditch lights. I'm just trying to understand what the issue??......................rogerw.

DL&W Pete posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

If I could two rail them easily, I'd order a set!

Hmmm Erie? Southern??? (Amtrak!! )

Joe, 

I talked with mike the last time he was at trainstock, they would have to make a new set of molds to get the "fixed" pilot in front of the trucks. Mike has changed the front of these old weaver molds to get the second headlight in the nose door and he said that was not "cheap", also has to design new trucks to make them 3/2 compatible.

I wonder if he could do what atlas did with there F3 A units in 3 rail, in every powered version atlas added a "fixed pilot". You just unscrewed the front pilot from the truck and screwed the fixed to the chassis, it also came with 2 rail couplers.

I wonder if any other trucks would fit that wheelbase? Maybe it's a problem because of the Weaver mechanisms? Fixed pilots always help. For me, it's easier to fix the pilots than adapt the trucks to 2 rail.

Larry Neal posted:

Unfortunate nature of modern railroading, all diesel locomotives operating as a lead unit must have ditch lights (steam has been grandfathered apparently). 

Not exactly...the law requires ditchlights if the locomotive goes faster than 20 mph. For example, the Union Railroad does not use ditch lights on any of their locomotives, but as a result their trains can not go over 20 mph. 

ES44AC posted:

Larry Neal posted:

Unfortunate nature of modern railroading, all diesel locomotives operating as a lead unit must have ditch lights (steam has been grandfathered apparently). 

Not exactly...the law requires ditchlights if the locomotive goes faster than 20 mph. For example, the Union Railroad does not use ditch lights on any of their locomotives, but as a result their trains can not go over 20 mph. 

 

 

Apparently, IRM's E5 has been grandfathered, also:

She certainly wasn't doing 20 mph through Western Springs in 2012.

By the way, the Canadians had ditch lights in the 1970's:

Calgary 1979.

Rusty

 

 

 

Apparently, IRM's E5 has been grandfathered, also:

She certainly wasn't doing 20 mph through Western Springs in 2012.

 

Hmm, you got me stumped on that one..my guess is either it has the same treatment as a steam locomotive, or the mars light has something to do with it...

ROGERW posted:

I just wanna know?? What is the big deal about the ditch lights?? Am I missing something?? As I said in an earlier post, I have 3 of these engines. One has a headlight and mars light, one has just a headlight, and the recent engine has ditch lights. I think that everyone knows that the original prototypical engines didn't have ditch lights. I'm just trying to understand what the issue??......................rogerw.

I think the issue is that when someone spends $1,000.00 (!!!) for an E-8/9 ABA, they'd like it to be prototypically correct. In real life, some of the engines had MARS lights, some did not. Hopefully MTH got that correct, and it's correct for the prototype. That's fine - it's just staying true to the real thing. But adding lights that were never used in real-life operation, now you're on a trip to Never-Never Land, and that's an entirely different matter to some folks. For others, it doesn't matter, but for those who want their expensive engines to be realistic, it spoils it.

(Too bad MTH didn't put white strobes on the roof, like the Amtrak toasters had - now that would have been cool.  )

ES44AC posted:

 

 

 

Apparently, IRM's E5 has been grandfathered, also:

She certainly wasn't doing 20 mph through Western Springs in 2012.

 

Hmm, you got me stumped on that one..my guess is either it has the same treatment as a steam locomotive, or the mars light has something to do with it...

You should read the first thread currently showing on the Forum.....your question will be answered. 

NKP 765 TO PULL A HIGH-SPEED EXCURSION FROM CHICAGO TO GALESBURG RAILROAD DAYS!

My understanding on the ditch light issue is that if the real deal prototype exist today such as UP 949 and the NS F7's that are run on tracks for excursion trains etc., they are required to have ditch lights. This is most likely the reason that MTH installed them on these fine locomotives. They (MTH) may be producing these locomotives as they look today in service. I may be wrong and someone correct me if I am but this may be the answer. I recall reading an article about this.

stangerdude posted:

My understanding on the ditch light issue is that if the real deal prototype exist today such as UP 949 and the NS F7's that are run on tracks for excursion trains etc., they are required to have ditch lights. This is most likely the reason that MTH installed them on these fine locomotives. They (MTH) may be producing these locomotives as they look today in service. I may be wrong and someone correct me if I am but this may be the answer. I recall reading an article about this.

Well, yes, that's what all the discussion has been about. But who knows why MTH did what they did? It certainly wasn't what they had advertised. The pictures of the engines in the 2016 Vol. 1 catalog, where the pictures of the engines are on the cover as well as inside, show NO ditch lights on any of the engines. And while most of the engines ended up with ditch lights, yet the Wabash has none. (!?) 

Also, the description of the engines in the catalog says: "The E8 returns to the Premier line for 2016 in paint schemes from the golden age of passenger travel. Protosound 3.0 brings you the authentic sounds of the E8s EMD prime mover and the ability to start your train so gently you won't spill the water in the diner - and then accelerate to scale speeds over 100 mph, just like the prototype."

So does all of this look and sound like they were intending to make modern excursion train versions, and not the prototypical original engines?  

Nope.

breezinup posted:

stangerdude posted:

My understanding on the ditch light issue is that if the real deal prototype exist today such as UP 949 and the NS F7's that are run on tracks for excursion trains etc., they are required to have ditch lights. This is most likely the reason that MTH installed them on these fine locomotives. They (MTH) may be producing these locomotives as they look today in service. I may be wrong and someone correct me if I am but this may be the answer. I recall reading an article about this.

Well, yes, that's what all the discussion has been about. But who knows why MTH did what they did? It certainly wasn't what they had advertised. The pictures of the engines in the 2016 Vol. 1 catalog, where the pictures of the engines are on the cover as well as inside, show NO ditch lights on any of the engines. And while most of the engines ended up with ditch lights, yet the Wabash has none. (!?) 

Also, the description of the engines in the catalog says: "The E8 returns to the Premier line for 2016 in paint schemes from the golden age of passenger travel. Protosound 3.0 brings you the authentic sounds of the E8s EMD prime mover and the ability to start your train so gently you won't spill the water in the diner - and then accelerate to scale speeds over 100 mph, just like the prototype."

So does all of this look and sound like they were intending to make modern excursion train versions, and not the prototypical original engines?  

Nope.

The 2016 volume 1 MTH catalog  cover depicted a replication of the NCTM "Streamliner" Event here with toy train graphics.  The Erie 833 had no ditch-lights and the UP 849 had duel headlights and no ditch-lights.  On the catalog pages none of the E's had ditch-lights and was NOT clear if the Wabash had duel headlights.

Right after seeing this catalog I emailed one of the MTH VP's suggesting that they make the "Event" units both with and without ditch-lights as appropriate.  They had the tooling for both versions (Levin Pennsy E8's had ditch-lights) so no big deal.  Received NO reply. 

Then here on this forum I expressed that those like myself contact MTH with their own wishes for these units.  I know that at least on member who has also posted here did.

Obviously MTH decided to go with ditch-lights as appropriate.?!

I for one would only buy the Southern 6900 as a contemporary unit as it runs here at the NCTM.  But believe MTH should have made them both ways.

Here are a couple more images from the "Event."

Wabash with NO ditch-lights.

The UP 849 single headlight.

Ron

ps. I should add Southern (and Pennsy for that matter) had NO,None E8 B-units!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Oh! these are the Levin units at the "Event.'

The lead unit with ditch-lights attached.

the trailing unit with ditch-lights detached!

Here is the real thing with ditch lites mounted on a bracket on the pilot , in my opinion the MTH version is so lame compared to what can be done today with brass castings and micro sized LED's . For that matter you could probably have a LED cast as a complete ditch light and then painted everywhere except the lens. These are tired old molds , not even flush mounted windshields inserts , and those green LED s sticking out as marker lites which should be clear or warm white . No snow shields up top on the UP and no roof top beacon , UP  does not use the lift rings on the nose.

Correct ditch lite castings could have been mounted on a bracket and attached under the lip of the shell and above the swinging pilot . A thin circuit board could have been used as the bracket with the LED surface mounted on it and a ditch lite casting to cover it . Easier and removable for what ever era you model . Just goes to show they just pump and dump these old tired rerun locos and still with the blind floater plastic wheels ..Just one mans opinion before it gets deleted .

PRRronbh posted:

breezinup posted:

stangerdude posted:

My understanding on the ditch light issue is that if the real deal prototype exist today such as UP 949 and the NS F7's that are run on tracks for excursion trains etc., they are required to have ditch lights. This is most likely the reason that MTH installed them on these fine locomotives. They (MTH) may be producing these locomotives as they look today in service. I may be wrong and someone correct me if I am but this may be the answer. I recall reading an article about this.

Well, yes, that's what all the discussion has been about. But who knows why MTH did what they did? It certainly wasn't what they had advertised. The pictures of the engines in the 2016 Vol. 1 catalog, where the pictures of the engines are on the cover as well as inside, show NO ditch lights on any of the engines. And while most of the engines ended up with ditch lights, yet the Wabash has none. (!?) 

Also, the description of the engines in the catalog says: "The E8 returns to the Premier line for 2016 in paint schemes from the golden age of passenger travel. Protosound 3.0 brings you the authentic sounds of the E8s EMD prime mover and the ability to start your train so gently you won't spill the water in the diner - and then accelerate to scale speeds over 100 mph, just like the prototype."

So does all of this look and sound like they were intending to make modern excursion train versions, and not the prototypical original engines?  

Nope.

The 2016 volume 1 MTH catalog  cover depicted a replication of the NCTM "Streamliner" Event here with toy train graphics.  The Erie 833 had no ditch-lights and the UP 849 had duel headlights and no ditch-lights.  On the catalog pages none of the E's had ditch-lights and was NOT clear if the Wabash had duel headlights.

Right after seeing this catalog I emailed one of the MTH VP's suggesting that they make the "Event" units both with and without ditch-lights as appropriate.  They had the tooling for both versions (Levin Pennsy E8's had ditch-lights) so no big deal.  Received NO reply. 

Then here on this forum I expressed that those like myself contact MTH with their own wishes for these units.  I know that at least on member who has also posted here did.

Obviously MTH decided to go with ditch-lights as appropriate.?!

I for one would only buy the Southern 6900 as a contemporary unit as it runs here at the NCTM.  But believe MTH should have made them both ways.

Here are a couple more images from the "Event."

Wabash with NO ditch-lights.

The UP 849 single headlight.

Ron

ps. I should add Southern (and Pennsy for that matter) had NO,None E8 B-units!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Oh! these are the Levin units at the "Event.'

The lead unit with ditch-lights attached.

the trailing unit with ditch-lights detached!

Thanks Ron for the clarity in this post! As I said earlier, I believe that MTH was trying to recreate the engines that were at the Streamliner at Spencer event. Why do people on this forum get bent out of shape over ditchlights? It's been proven time and again with pictures that the engines DO exist with ditchlights. My opinion is vote with your wallet. If you don't like the engines with ditchlights attached, don't purchase it...............rogerw.

Scratchbuilder1-48 posted:

Here is the real thing with ditch lites mounted on a bracket on the pilot , in my opinion the MTH version is so lame compared to what can be done today with brass castings and micro sized LED's . For that matter you could probably have a LED cast as a complete ditch light and then painted everywhere except the lens. These are tired old molds , not even flush mounted windshields inserts , and those green LED s sticking out as marker lites which should be clear or warm white . No snow shields up top on the UP and no roof top beacon , UP  does not use the lift rings on the nose.

Correct ditch lite castings could have been mounted on a bracket and attached under the lip of the shell and above the swinging pilot . A thin circuit board could have been used as the bracket with the LED surface mounted on it and a ditch lite casting to cover it . Easier and removable for what ever era you model . Just goes to show they just pump and dump these old tired rerun locos and still with the blind floater plastic wheels ..Just one mans opinion before it gets deleted .

Yes you can do most anything in brass with little to almost no tooling cost since brass is essentially "Hand Made."

My guess MTH probably pushed to near $100,000.00 for the tooling used for the Levin E8's with ditch-lights.  But for tooling to push these lights lower on the front belt it is more then just the body.  The frame tooling and related part tooling would be required probably doubling cost.  So you do what can be done with cost in mind.

Ron

PRRronbh posted:

Right after seeing this catalog I emailed one of the MTH VP's suggesting that they make the "Event" units both with and without ditch-lights as appropriate.  They had the tooling for both versions (Levin Pennsy E8's had ditch-lights) so no big deal.  Received NO reply. 

Then here on this forum I expressed that those like myself contact MTH with their own wishes for these units.  I know that at least on member who has also posted here did.

Obviously MTH decided to go with ditch-lights as appropriate.?! 

ps. I should add Southern (and Pennsy for that matter) had NO,None E8 B-units!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

A few people send in an email, and MTH makes changes?  But all those customers who wanted it the way it was pictured in the catalog don't call in because they think it will be made as pictured. But then MTH makes the units in a different version from what's cataloged. And these changes happen after people have preordered according to the manufacturer's rules, based on the catalog pictures. It's easy to see how upside down things can get when engines are changed after the catalog is out, and a manufacturer doesn't say anything about it.  

Re: the B units, that's harmless. (Of course, if MTH was really making the event engines, they shouldn't have made additional A units or B units for any engine where matching A of B units don't currently exist.)  But with respect to the Bs, it's an easy cure for those who want prototypical operation - the person can simply not order it the B unit. No such cure for the ditch lights. Not surprisingly, MTH only made one version of the engines - it would have been cost prohibitive to make and market two different versions of the same engine in multiple road names.

Breezinup, You do have a point with the description of the engines in the catalog. It did not say that there would be ditchlights on some of the engines. I can see where that would be misleading. Maybe someone from MTH may see this post and make a new batch of engines without the ditchlights in the next upcoming catalog..............rogerw.

breezinup posted:

A few people send in an email, and MTH makes changes?  But all those customers who wanted it the way it was pictured in the catalog don't call in because they think it will be made as pictured. But then MTH makes the units in a different version from what's cataloged. And these changes happen after people have preordered according to the manufacturer's rules, based on the catalog pictures. It's easy to see how upside down things can get when engines are changed after the catalog is out, and a manufacturer doesn't say anything about it.  

Re: the B units, that's harmless. (Of course, if MTH was really making the event engines, they shouldn't have made additional A units or B units for any engine where matching A of B units don't currently exist.)  But with respect to the Bs, it's an easy cure for those who want prototypical operation - the person can simply not order it the B unit. No such cure for the ditch lights. Not surprisingly, MTH only made one version of the engines - it would have been cost prohibitive to make and market two different versions of the same engine in multiple road names.

You KNOW only a few people "called in"???!

If you read my suggestion to MTH was make them both ways since the tooling existed.

AND as you stated the solution is "simple" if do don't want the ditch-light version DO NOT buy them.  That would have been my solution if the they did not offer a ditch-light version.

Breezinup  are you not a Lionel only guy?!

ROGERW posted:

Breezinup, You do have a point with the description of the engines in the catalog. It did not say that there would be ditchlights on some of the engines. I can see where that would be misleading. Maybe someone from MTH may see this post and make a new batch of engines without the ditchlights in the next upcoming catalog..............rogerw.

Hi Roger. Yeah, maybe they'll do that. Probably not...don't think it would be worth it for them. Personally, to me it's not a big deal. I suppose it might not be too difficult to remove the ditch lights for those so inclined. This has just been a discussion to clarify that those people who felt they were mislead when the engines showed up with ditch lights have a point, and to note that manufacturers should make an effort to clarify what engine models they will in fact be producing before people start ordering them.