MTH Passenger Car Lighting Disappointment and Fixes

Maybe a simple fix, but I'd like to think the cars should be good to go without the extra fuss.

I saw a video a few weeks back, a father & son just enjoying their trains on a nice layout. The dad does what appears to be a very simple LED upgrade to some MTH passenger cars, no diodes or capacitors. Said he got the idea from a youtube video. He runs Legacy and claims the upgrade works. no LED failure. From what I read here and other videos I've seen, it doesn't seem possible.

Here's the link below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOsUQ1Dpn-k

I'm curious to know if anyone else has seen this and tried.

it seems funny to me that there's already holes drilled that line up with the cap. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I just got my first MTH passenger cars with LED lighting.  I was really looking forward to all the benefits that LED lighting brings without having to do the work all myself.

Silly me, I should have known better!  I put one on the track and pushed it along, the lights flicker as bad as the old incandescent lighting!  After seeing the great job Lionel did with their passenger car LED lighting, this was a major disappointment!  

Thanks John,

Coming from you, its a real compliment to hear you liked the Lionel lighting.

Lou N

Sadly not surprised.

I'm shocked they didn't at least add the cap and choke, that would have cost pennies in production quantities.  I'm still mulling over the idea of simply upgrading the lighting with my lighting module.  Since these are woodside passenger cars, they'd look better with the yellow LED's, and I have those strips.  I have to open them anyway to do the fix, so it's really no more effort.  Then I'd have intensity control and better color as well.

I'll probably add a few passengers to supplement the twelve they give you, that always seems a bit sparse.

ironman1 posted:

I saw a video a few weeks back, a father & son just enjoying their trains on a nice layout. The dad does what appears to be a very simple LED upgrade to some MTH passenger cars, no diodes or capacitors. Said he got the idea from a youtube video. He runs Legacy and claims the upgrade works. no LED failure. From what I read here and other videos I've seen, it doesn't seem possible.

 It obviously lights the LED's, but you're making some compromises.  First off, there's the flicker resistance that I mentioned, and also the intensity of the lighting.  Also, I doubt he has a long term running record, as with no reverse voltage protection, he may start losing LED's in the future.

The usual....I can buy a bag of 100 Caps for 10 bucks Nick

Unfortunately even the smallest item can mess up a production line process. The engineering samples and pre production test units should have picked that up 

Anyone that's run a model train with passenger cars knows you need something to prevent the flicker.  There are some folks that say it "adds to the charm", for them the MTH LED cars are perfect.   However, many of us are going to LED lighting for lower power consumption AND to eliminate the flicker!  The lighting design looks like it was done by the lowest bidder, not someone that wanted to produce a quality product.

Thanks' for the tip John. My son bought me a dozen of your LED kits for my birth day back in June. I plan on installing them as a winter project.

I too can't understand why they would fail to add two relatively inexpensive parts that would really improve the product.

Are you sure that your cars where not just an oddity that got missed in production?

I ordered a 5 car Premeir UP passenger train from MTH.  Hope I won't have to fix lights in any car!

Thanks for the report and the usual detailed fix for these cars, John. Disappointing you had to do it at all. I have a set of the MTH woodside Strasburg cars and the Paradise observation car I'd like to put your kits in. Having the proper color lighting is reason enough to do it for me as I really like these cars and the upgraded lighting would be awesome. 

Jim

gunrunnerjohn posted:

 It obviously lights the LED's, but you're making some compromises.  First off, there's the flicker resistance that I mentioned, and also the intensity of the lighting.  Also, I doubt he has a long term running record, as with no reverse voltage protection, he may start losing LED's in the future.

I watched an LED die in just a second or two the other day when I accidentally applied AC instead of DC. I don't understand how he gets away with it even long enough to make a video!

GRJ's capacitor/choke addition is good. I added a fixed 15VDC voltage regulator as well. Not absolutely necessary but keeps things steady.

GeoPeg posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

 It obviously lights the LED's, but you're making some compromises.  First off, there's the flicker resistance that I mentioned, and also the intensity of the lighting.  Also, I doubt he has a long term running record, as with no reverse voltage protection, he may start losing LED's in the future.

I watched an LED die in just a second or two the other day when I accidentally applied AC instead of DC. I don't understand how he gets away with it even long enough to make a video!

Actually its pretty simple.  Each LED in the strip has its own resistor.  The forward drop on a white (blue) LED is 3.1Vdc.  The reverse bias value is 6Vdc but at substantially reduced current (usually in microAMPS).  The resistor takes up the potential difference but, as GRJ said, its only a matter of time.

Lou N

I've about 90% decided that when I open them up I'll simply replace the MTH lighting and put in the full regulator with the yellow light strips I have.  They look great in my PRR heavyweights, so I'm sure they're appropriate for this vintage car as well.  Since the cars all have the springs and contacts, it's dirt simple to do the LED upgrade, and they'll have a real LED upgrade that way.

Thanks John for your posts, you always post great suggestions!

I have several MTH Sounder Passenger cars from 2004.  The Cab unit's lights were not working.  After great effort, I was able to remove the body, a bunch of the light bulbs were rattling around in the cab.  I think those were attached to the strip over the top level.  I could not find a parts diagram for the cars,  so I really don't have a clue as to what replacement bulbs I should use. I am wondering if your led strips could work, at least for the top level bulbs.  There looks to be some type regulator at one end.  

The lower level lights look to be part of some clear plastic light distribution system. 

Any help you can provide would be appreciated.   THanks, Dave

!

Those cars appear to have a DC regulator circuit to power some LED's in the last picture, but I don't know what voltage they put out.  It's possible you could connect LED strips directly, or perhaps with some series resistance to limit current.  Without knowing what voltages are supplied by the regulator, I can't really offer concrete suggestions.

Can you measure what voltage is on the bulbs?

I think the leds are for the front lights, which you can turn on to mimic when t bff e cab is leading the train (the main engine is pushing the train). The broken bulbs from the top are 18 volt grain of wheat.  I think its part number is CI 0000009, but without a part diagram, i am not 100% sure.  

Thanks so much. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm shocked they didn't at least add the cap and choke, that would have cost pennies in production quantities. 

This is exactly what I was thinking as I read this topic.  Especially due to the fact that it appears the cap was thought of due the the holes in the board.  

I actually thought I was only one of a handful of people that was aggravated by flickering lights.  

As always, thanks for the info John!

Tony

Dave, I have some of the 18V bulbs if you need them.

I think the leds are for the front lights, which you can turn on to mimic when t bff e cab is leading the train (the main engine is pushing the train). The broken bulbs from the top are 18 volt grain of wheat.  I think its part number is CI 0000009, but without a part diagram, i am not 100% sure.  

Thanks so much. 

When I upgrade stuff to LED, I get lots of these bulbs, so I have them in my parts boxes.

I recently hand an MTH caboose apart to replace a blown bulb. There is red LED safety lights at each end mounted in the deck roof overhangs. The circuit board providing power to these LED's had a resistor and only one diode. Can only one diode be creating a DC voltage to these LED's?

Brewman Dave, those Sounder cars would look great with cool white LED strips installed to give them the modern florescent lighting look.

Maybe because I use traditional track, but all of the passenger cars I have with a pickup roller on both trucks almost never blink.  

I guess I'm lucky. I have "old fashion" lighting on my 2 sets MTH, and 1 set of K-Line passenger cars, and nothing flickers. This is good, since changing a light bulb is as far as my electrical talents go.

Dave Zucal posted:

Can only one diode be creating a DC voltage to these LED's?

Sure, a diode rectifies the AC.  Multiple diodes are used to do full-wave rectification, but for simple LED lighting, one works.  Here's three ways of creating DC and the resultant waveforms generated.

Brewman1973 posted:

 

... I am wondering if your led strips could work, at least for the top level bulbs.  There looks to be some type regulator at one end.  

 

...The lower level lights look to be part of some clear plastic light distribution system. 

The dome cars and the 2-level cars are more complicated to light up, though it's not a super big deal.  You do have to do some segmentation of the strips and some custom wiring.

I've got a MTH Railking vista  dome apart right now and was wondering if I could replace the two light bulbs with some of those LEDs that come in the rolls as is or do I need to add diodes to rectify the ac to dc?

Diodes cost about a penny,  If you're going thru the trouble of buying a roll of LEDs, cutting them up, splicing, stripping, soldering wires to those tiny pads on the LED strips, etc. just add the diode(s).  You'll find youtube videos and what have you of stories where guys have hooked up LED rolls "as-is" to AC.  What you don't see is those same guys with the proverbial tail-between-the-legs when their LEDs stopped working.  My opinion of course.

The bigger picture is your objective in the first place.  In addition to power reduction, LEDs can provide better flicker tolerance, constant brightness, more-uniform lighting (less hot spots than 2-bulbs), etc.   If going DIY, once you have the soldering iron fired up, a few more low-cost components can deliver bang-for-the-buck.

I covered the choke with black heatshrink to minimize the visibility.

Hi John,  

I want to start doing my own soldering and I was wondering if you just slip the heat shrink tubing down to the solder joint and bring the soldering iron close enough until it shrinks around it?

I use a heat gun to shrink the tubing, does a much better job than fooling around with the iron.  However, in the absence of a heat gun, I've been known to use the soldering iron.