MTH Proto Sound 1 - Using Alkaline vs. MTH 8.4v Rechargeable

An alkaline battery ,if left in can damage the charging circuit. Since the BCR does not work ,it may already be bad.

Dale H

Dale is right, the alkaline battery can damage the charging circuit if it isn't already and a rechargeable will generally loose its charge at given rate when sitting idle. So a rechargeable might not last as long as an alkaline in a circuit without a charging circuit.

Ron 

Thanks.

The PS-1, which was harvested by a forum member, works just fine with an alkaline and the MTH rechargeable -on the test table.  I should have mentioned that previously. 

But when you put a BCR in the equation, we only get momentum.  No sound.

I had a Williams Trainmaster that was mated with a PS-1 sound board.  Worked just fine with an alkaline.  Would get motion but no sound when a BCR was installed (and properly conditioned per JW Electronics' directions).  So I have some prior, and similar 'experiences'.  Not necessarily the same outcome here, but we have Williams engines, MTH PS-1 systems, and BCRs involved - all with similar results.  (this latter is just background - not saying I have the same problem because I do not empirically know that).

So, I take RailfanRon's response - complementing Dale H's - to mean that they way the circuit is set up on the PS-1, the aspects of the inherent circuit can be damaged by having a non rechargeable battery device on it because effectively the PS-1 circuit will be attempting to charge an attached power device?  And if that is what you guys are saying one concludes that I do not want to be charging a standard alkaline battery?

Thanks for the responses.

John

An alkaline battery will not take a charge that the circuit is attempting to put in it. Alkaline batteries are only recommended to test a unit very briefly,not to be left in and operated that way.

Not sure why a BCR does not work,it works fine in all my PS1 locos and I have a bunch. You might ask Wayne at www.jandwelectronics.com he services PS1 boards or at least used to and makes the BCR.

Dale H

Thanks Dale H.

It might be worth doing - sending him the board and the BCR (which I know works on other engines as I tested that too).  I will talk to him and see what I will do.  If I go that route I will post a follow up to educate/memorialize the item.

My other alternative it to install a recharging harness for the MTH rechargeable and thus no need to remove the shell. 

But the bottom line is do not use the alkaline as it is not on the list of best alternatives.

As usual, the forum provides excellent info.  Thanks again Dale H (and earlier, RailfanRon) for the sage advice.

John,

   As usual Dale H, knows what he is talking about, more than likely if your BCR

does not work in your P1 engine, your engine is already damaged, it probably

going to take a new board.

PCRR/Dave

The alkaline won't damage the charging circuit, but the battery can be damaged so you need to use a rechargeable battery on units with Chargers.

I have seen a few capacitor assemblies not work with specific boards.   Either a board issue or a bad capacitor.

You can purchase and install a charge port, you can charge on the track, you can try a different BCR.

Can you post a pic of the board set?  G

John,

Check the battery clip with a volt meter to see if the engine is putting out a charge.

If it isn't charging, the rechargeable battery will soon go dead anyway if you blow the horn a lot or do feature programming.

You can also up the voltage on the track when checking the charging to see if it will work as the voltage may not be high enough at the board for some odd reason.

Thanks for the input everyone....  Some clarity and follow ups to the last 3 postings.....

Pine Creek Railroad:  Is the engine damaged or is it the board?  I assume you mean the board because the motors work fine and if I revert back to the Williams configuration, (horn/whistle) it works just fine.

GGG:  I will do that.  May be a week ro so.  I am not personally doing the work - have a highly gifted person who does repair work in his basement working it.  I will ask him to send me a few pics and then I will post.

Joe Allen:  Great points.  Will check for that.  And if there is not a charge going to the battery, then I may have a few items going on.

Thanks again.

Put a diode in one of the battery leads, it will prevent the battery from getting charged.

AS Requested, pictures.  Thanks for all the comments.

That is a early board set 1095.  There is a method for your tech to measure the charging circuit on PS-1 engines.  Looks like all the components are there.  The resistor that is right next to the battery leads on the board, I think it is R27 is suppose to be a 24ohm resistor.  It looks burned a little to me.  May just be glare.  Does it read 24 ohms or open.  If open that is you problem.  G

Here is an update from the individual doing the work, in response to GGG's suggestion immediately above:

"According to the manual, the charging circuit should read -15ma. I am getting +25"

Further investigation and analysis will continue over the weekend. 

Any other thoughts are welcome.

If you're supposed to be getting -15 and you're getting +25, it's discharging and not charging it would seem.

I would reinstall the BCR with a voltmeter to read it charging.  Does it actually chrge in a timely matter or charge very slowly?  I had one Capacitor assembly that would not work with a PS-2 Power Supply.  Took over 15 mins to charge.  Worked fine on another board set, and a battery worked fine on the original board.  Can't explain it, but you can trace the circuit on your PS-1 board from the battery leads to the various compoents, but if it works with a battery and you get a normal shutdown sequence and it won't work with different BCR I am not sure why.   May need to install the charge port.   G

So, on a parallel course, the person doing the repair has also tapped his resources within the MTH 'network' of certified repair shops.

John hit it on the head - the charging capabilities of what is on the board are toasted.

So, GGG is correct in that the alternative is to by pass what came with the board that if functioning charge a power source  and install a separate charging port for the 8.4 volt MTH battery.  So that is what we are going to do.

Thank you to all that helped to diagnose the problem and provide solutions.

So does the resistor actually show signs of over heating?  Is it open?  It is not a difficult circuit to trace.  G

John,

If the charging system isn't working, the rechargeable battery will eventually go dead and you may risk scrambling of the board. Depending on how you run your engine will determine how long the battery will last.

I would just find another good lower board that will charge and put the BCR back in.

BTDT

I do not have the boards in my possession.  So I can not answer that question.

I am guessing the prior info I got does not answer that question ["According to the manual, the charging circuit should read -15ma. I am getting +25"]

I was told the charging circuit (?) is toasted.  So as a result, I am not sure if overheating, open or whatever.  I realize that it would be a good conclusion to this thread, and if I find out I will post it.

I believe the conclusion here is that if you have Proto 1 and a BCR mated and the BCR does not work, it is probable that the board is not charging and unlikely to be able to charge as a result of something in the board getting toasted.  That's the layman's description.

If I can get an answer to GGG's question immediately above I will follow up. Thanks!

PLEASE BOW YOUR HEADS IN A MOMENT OF SILENCE.......

The Proto One board has moved on to the big silicone rest home in the sky.

Just as a follow up, here is what happened.

1. It was determined that the capacitor (?) just west of the speaker connect blew [see picture] .
2. Earlier, but subsequent to the postings above, it was determined that the cord for the battery/BCR was not properly and securely connected to the board.  It was repaired.
3. During testing, the BCR showed the correct readings for charging and discharging.
4. Yesterday morning it was not operating exactly in the correct manner (still being tested).
5. Suddenly, there was a loud pop.  We got out the EKG machine.  We called Rampart Emergency.  Gage and Desoto did their best, but it was too late.

The good news is we still have the Williams sound board so will just revert back to that.

Lesson learned - do not buy PS-one sound boards.  That is a personal conclusion and not necessarily one that others here need to or want to follow.

Thanks again to all for your input and suggestions.

I also forgot to mention that Officer's Reed and Malloy were on the scene to file all the paperwork. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrdbgYYBnvI

I got to say you have kept a very good sense of humor.

John,

   Once you get your P1 engine working properly, install a BCR and get rid of the battery or you are going to have this problem again later on down the line when the battery becomes low.  As Dale H advised, he has many P1 engines with the BCR's that function properly all the time, I used my P1 engines in the same way, until I traded them in on P2 engines.  If you are planning on keeping your P1 engines, the best thing you can do is put a BCR in every one of them, to safe guard every engine. 

PCRR/Dave

Dave:

A very good point to round out this thread. 

The engine that was getting a transplanted PS-1 'system' was a Williams engine.  Because the PS-1 boards for the transplant died (see Gage, Desoto & Rampart Emergency references I made above), I am reverting back to the Williams boards which require track power only.

All my PS-1 engines are working fine. And all of my PS-1 engines have BCRs.  I did it because (a) I am lazy and do not want to open/close shells (b) I do not want to recharge batteries and (c) I want the PS-1 to work properly.  The $25 is well worth the cost of a BCR.

Thank you for the reminder and for mentioning it so others may benefit from that point.