MTH vs Lionel Legacy recommendation

Depends on what engine you are referring to. Some of the recent Lionel RS11s had to be reprogrammed by Lionel because they would not remember their new IDs.

Pete

NYCBuffalo.

    My #1 rule is always buy Legacy however as Lionel has not produced a RS11 since 2018 if you can find one at a dealer I would buy it however if factory repair is important to you there is a cut off from warranty repairs at Lionel. I don’t know exactly what the cut off is but you can all Lionel to find out. There are forum members (Alex M. GRJ etc) who can fix any Legacy engine if needed.

    I cannot give you an opinion on MTH either now of before their reorganization but a lot of people like them so if they are producing a RS11 in a road name you want I would say go for it. Mike Reagan (spelling ?) has done a great job with their parts and there are people who repair them. Please do not consider this a recommendation as I only buy Legacy engines.

JohnB

"Mostly worried about warranty and reliability at this price point"

You seem aware of the tradeoffs, so whatever seems best to you.  I haven't had any reliability problems with Lionel and don't own enough MTH to comment.  Warranty issues depend on whether you want a refund or a repaired item if something goes south.  MTH is not offering repairs under warranty.  Lionel is, if the item is bought new from one of their approved dealers.  If you can find a Lionel item you like with a warranty, that would seem to be the choice if this is a priority.

The ability to reprogram the MTH engines at home *if* there is a problem is nice.

From Lionel site.

Products that are more than 3 years old, from date of manufacture, are not applicable for warranty coverage, even if they have never been sold prior to this date. (Under no circumstance shall any components or labor be provided free of charge.)

that answers that question.

I'm in a tough place on this. I still think that MTH hardware build quality is better. By that, I mean the motor trucks- especially on a diesel, the gearing, the materials have been proven. PS3 is still reliable as any other PS3 engine you might own. Of key point, I think MTH smoke units are better, still diecast metal parts, and flat out they just work.

Yeah, sure, I had recent problems with BOTH brands, Lionel and MTH. Example one had a headlight LED polarity incorrect. One had a broken LED class lamp. Conversely, my Legacy GP30 had a wire solder joint failure and that caused a bunch of the lights to not work. Still fighting the MTH sound file issue on the Heavy Pacifics just released. Oh and my Legacy AF engine tha 30 minutes out of the box that just died and I got the RMA yesterday to send it back to Lionel.

Again, there was a discussion a while back specific to recent Lionel truck gearing and my opinion is- I'm not buying any more legacy diesels with that gearing just waiting for it to wear out. I'm trying to find my pictures as I remember being in a topic specifically about the Lionel current motor druck design that allows the wheels and thus gears to have lots of side to side motion. This in turn changed the tooth mesh contact width with the other gears. Again my bigger fear is long term, I'm probably buying spare Lionel motor trucks- oh wait- the other problem, recent Lionel you cannot even buy parts!!!

So my take is, if you buy a Lionel, my bet is within the first year, if you run it much- probably going need warranty support and maybe driveline or wiring related. Also seen my fair share of Lionel incorrect programming. The plus side on Lionel, recent engines really are nice and loud sounds. I think they have a slight edge on that front. Again, I'm honestly worried that the driveline in these recent Lionels is going to wear out the gears. Obviously it take time to prove that and real wold evidence, but my gut instinct is the gear material is wrong, the finish on the teeth is questionable the overall design is not yet proven, and last it just looks sloppy.

Example of the all flanged wheel set Lionel trucks that slide the axles back and forth with minimal drive gear contact patch. Yep, that gap is intentional.

I think with MTH, you probably get a better paint scheme and color match, better proven driveline, better value for the $ spent. They either seem to have  problem new out of he box or just flat out work. As long as you test immediately upon arrival, and immediately return to dealer if there is a problem.

Again, my take is both companies suck right now. Lionel is banking on the name, while mechanically selling you an inferior product that does have nice electronics. MTH is selling the same product they produced in the past, with a slight uptick in wiring or QC issues, but overall, they either work out on day one, or they need to go back. Point being, MTH you neither have nor likely need warranty support. Lionel you have warranty support with a darn high chance you probably will need it. The bigger problem, what does year 2-5 look like? Again, MTH I'm not worried, Lionel I'm probably looking to buy spare parts as soon as I can.

I've easily spent a few grand with both companies in the last 6 months. The big regrets were the Lionels because I said never again, then gave them a chance, and then was immediately angry again. They make attractive models, then really good sounds, and then I get smacked in the face with smoke unit failures, various other failures and sending them back and playing the waiting game.

Conversely, one recent purchase was a 2018 Catalog Lionel Halloween engine, that has been flawless. The message there is products from 2018 are built better IMO than this lack fo QC in 2020-2021.

All that to say you definitely are not wrong for asking.

Again, my take is, 2020-2021 are unlikely to be known as the best years of trains to buy. I half expect that many of my recent Lionel diesels (GP30, SD70MAC, Veranda Turbine) all potentially subject to gear wear in the motor trucks long term.

From what I have read on this forum and what I have also experienced, both companies' warranties seem to come with nightmares.  Either no parts, or just delays in getting the repair complete.

If you are truly worried about the warranty of an item, maybe the item is not worth buying in the first place.

My recommendation is to buy the one you like the most.  If you are unfortunate and receive one that is sort of a lemon, and the warranty people can't fix it, there are some people here on OGR who can and for a reasonable price.

Good luck on your decision.

Ron

I swing both ways on this.  However, for the last year and a half, it has been impossible to get MTH electronics, so if you need those repair parts, you're out of luck.  Until MTH starts reliably stocking the boards again, I won't be buying any new MTH stuff.  I have a stack of repairs waiting on boards, and I can't even give estimates on when they might be done.

Sometimes it's difficult to find parts at Lionel as their new website is a disaster (IMO), and many newer parts aren't listed.  However, I find that usually I can call and they can find the parts in question.

“Again, my take is both companies suck right now. Lionel is banking on the name, while mechanically selling you an inferior product that does have nice electronics. MTH is selling the same product they produced in the past, with a slight uptick in wiring or QC issues, but overall, they either work out on day one, or they need to go back.”

Agreed. Be aware though that if you buy new, both companies do have a warranty. Lionel will fix it at their headquarters. MTH relies on its dealers who have agreed to warranty what they sell. In the case of MTH they will either refund your purchase price or supply its dealers with the required parts if they have them. Just make sure the dealer you buy from will honor the MTH warranty otherwise all bets are off. After a year you are on your own.

Pete

Both of them are fine and they work with each other fine.   Get both and run both

Cant wait to see this taken apart on the other forums

Agree that there is no need for doom and gloom.  We only hear about those who've had problems and/or bad luck.  Most people are having no problems whatever.  There are risks every time you purchase anything, but both companies have been making things right when there are problems during warranty periods, albeit by different approaches.

@bluelinec4 posted:

Cant wait to see this taken apart on the other forums

Let's start right here!

Well I decided to go MTH. No sense paying near retail for new old stock with essentially no warranty and i feel I am more familiar w Mth to make repairs myself down the road if they crank out extra boards when needed

I do have some really old tmcc steam I got new never run and had no issues so not bashing Lionel i think their sounds are awesome.

Reading some of these replies I think you just need to find another hobby. Never in my life have I seen so many people crashing a party.

@NYCBuffalo posted:

Well I decided to go MTH. No sense paying near retail for new old stock with essentially no warranty and i feel I am more familiar w Mth to make repairs myself down the road if they crank out extra boards when needed

I do have some really old tmcc steam I got new never run and had no issues so not bashing Lionel i think their sounds are awesome.

And this is where some of us have gone, …..you mention the older TMCC equipment, …we find this stuff nearly bulletproof, very well made, and easily (and sometimes inexpensively) upgraded,…..steam locomotives from both mfr.’s from around the turn of the last century, are extremely robust as far as hardware is concerned,….the vast majority of the time, we can upgrade a TMCC locomotive to more modern cruise, smoke, and update the chuffs, and still never reach what today’s locomotives cost!…even with purchasing the engine!!…..I’ll happily surrender whistle steam for heavy duty construction, 4 chuffs, good sounds, & fan smoke….all in a locomotive I can run the dog snot out of, and never wonder or worry,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

And this is where some of us have gone, …..you mention the older TMCC equipment, …we find this stuff nearly bulletproof, very well made, and easily (and sometimes inexpensively) upgraded,…..steam locomotives from both mfr.’s from around the turn of the last century, are extremely robust as far as hardware is concerned,….the vast majority of the time, we can upgrade a TMCC locomotive to more modern cruise, smoke, and update the chuffs, and still never reach what today’s locomotives cost!…even with purchasing the engine!!…..I’ll happily surrender whistle steam for heavy duty construction, 4 chuffs, good sounds, & fan smoke….all in a locomotive I can run the dog snot out of, and never wonder or worry,….

Pat

I have to agree. Not everything is all bells and whistles. You can't beat solid construction.

@NYCBuffalo posted:

Well I decided to go MTH. No sense paying near retail for new old stock with essentially no warranty and i feel I am more familiar w Mth to make repairs myself down the road if they crank out extra boards when needed

I do have some really old tmcc steam I got new never run and had no issues so not bashing Lionel i think their sounds are awesome.

If this was the engine you are considering then you made the right choice.

These came from Lionel without the ability to assign a unique engine ID. You would have had to use ID #1and since its no longer covered by a warranty and only Lionel can correct this you would be stuck.

No doom and gloom here, simply a fact.

Pete

I have the Lionel RS-11 they produced with the short line I worked for the Depew Lancaster and Western , paint is spot on and detail is great. had to have it as they had the number of the unit I got my first Engineers Lic in years ago. I have 30 years worth of Lionel locos and my original TMCC unit as well as Legacy system and have had almost no problems. I liked  some of the unique stuff MTH came out with but I always had bugs with the system so stopped buying stuff from him. right now everything MTH is in limbo so I personally would not risk buying another MTH loco now.

All true Rick but didn’t your engine have to go back to Lionel to have the ID memory restored?

Pete

yes Norton it went back to the dealer they sent the chip back to be re burned I would think Lionel would still do that with a known factory defect.  so far luckily that is the only Lionel item that I have had that ever needed warranty . MTH choice of locos was always much more interesting to me but I did not like the electronics. the few I had I converted to TMCC.  the problem with TMCC Legacy and DCS is that they are proprietary systems with no third party manufacturers other than electric railroad company. if the systems were open or licensable it would mean more choices in the 3 rail control world. the spinoff company that was to continue the DCS production has gone silent and I am guessing the lack of electronic components has put that on hold or maybe even dropped.

I posted the known problem just to give the OP a heads up. If he hasn’t committed yet he could contact Lionel and ask if they would handle the repair despite being out of warranty or ask the seller if the repair has been made and if not use that as a bargaining chip.

Pete

And yes it is the Depew Lancaster rs11.

@Norton posted:

If this was the engine you are considering then you made the right choice.

These came from Lionel without the ability to assign a unique engine ID. You would have had to use ID #1and since its no longer covered by a warranty and only Lionel can correct this you would be stuck.

No doom and gloom here, simply a fact.

Pete

That isn't a warranty issue, that is a known manufacturing defect. They should honor repairing it. Did all stores send their stock in for updating and also contact customers?

@BobbyD posted:

That isn't a warranty issue, that is a known manufacturing defect. They should honor repairing it. Did all stores send their stock in for updating and also contact customers?

No idea. Many customers sent them back themselves. My LHS, Gargraves, took care of that for myself and Rick. Good reason to support your local train store.

Pete

@Norton posted:

No idea. Many customers sent them back themselves. My LHS, Gargraves, took care of that for myself and Rick. Good reason to support your local train store.

Pete

That's great. Unfortunately ours did not. Did Lionel request all stores send theirs back?

Gargraves  just sent the board back for reprograming. as Norton said we are fortunate to have a good local Lionel Rep.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I have to agree. Not everything is all bells and whistles. You can't beat solid construction.

I'm gonna agree with Dave's agreement to Pat's post. 🙂

The (newer) Lionel locos I have are TMCC-era from the turn of the century; all are solid runners with little or no issues.

"Bells and whistles" are icing on the cake but only if the cake works. Otherwise, what's the point? 🤔

Mark in Oregon

My "bells and whistles" are working fine.

@harmonyards posted:

And this is where some of us have gone, …..you mention the older TMCC equipment, …we find this stuff nearly bulletproof, very well made, and easily (and sometimes inexpensively) upgraded,…..steam locomotives from both mfr.’s from around the turn of the last century, are extremely robust as far as hardware is concerned,….the vast majority of the time, we can upgrade a TMCC locomotive to more modern cruise, smoke, and update the chuffs, and still never reach what today’s locomotives cost!…even with purchasing the engine!!…..I’ll happily surrender whistle steam for heavy duty construction, 4 chuffs, good sounds, & fan smoke….all in a locomotive I can run the dog snot out of, and never wonder or worry,….

Pat

Yes. I'm even questioning the need for sound, now. If we had had proper gearing, even "cruise" would be unnecessary. You can imagine how often "chatter" in the cab gets my time.

I do prefer TMCC to transformer control, even with straight DC polarity systems.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

My "bells and whistles" are working fine.

That's awesome...and what's better is you know how to repair those circuits (or design better replacements)! 👍

Mark in Oregon

Legacy. Hands down.  

For diesels, it's somewhat of a toss-up for me.  OTOH, for steam as a rule, the Legacy sounds are way above what MTH does.  It's a mystery why MTH hasn't spent more time with the audio installations with steam, even in large tenders, it's a basic install with cheap OEM speakers.  Lionel usually has a acoustically designed baffle and fatboy speaker or speakers.

@D500 posted:

Yes. I'm even questioning the need for sound, now. If we had had proper gearing, even "cruise" would be unnecessary. You can imagine how often "chatter" in the cab gets my time.

I do prefer TMCC to transformer control, even with straight DC polarity systems.

Cab chatter for me is not unless I want to hear it. I think one of my newer engines I ran through part of the dialog, but not even half of the back and forth. I just wanted to hear what was said when I hit the buttons for it. That was enough. I doubt I would run through the dialog for anyone other than young children. Being that I have no kids, and all my nieces and nephews are grown, not much of an audience unless my great niece and great nephew pop down.

I'll agree with John that Lionel still has the edge on steam sounds overall.  MTH has improved to the point though that if I want the model I'll buy the engine.  With diesels there are MTH engines that I actually think sound better than what Lionel has!

I have thought the MTH use of stationsounds in their passenger engines a better alternative to having to spend more money on a $tation$ound$ diner. Not to mention you can in many cases change the route of a particular named train to suit the area of the country you model like the Empire State Express vs the Mercury or Southwestern Limited.

Pete

Lionel, TMCC and Legacy, have been in use by operators on my 1600 sq ft waybill-driven NHRR layout.  Often I have as many as 10-12 people, with few problems. I have motive power by Lionel, Atlas, K-Line, Weaver and 3rd Rail.  

MTH innovated with good sound, then sat on their innovation laurels.  Lionel chose the continuous improvement model, building some of the most highly detailed, accurate O scale models available short of brass freight cars.

Further, MTH left customers “hanging” twice:

The first time they made a decision to abandon Proto 1 customers by failing to make Proto 2 “backward compatible.”  All the corporate excuses ensued…    Lionel didn’t go that route, and all systems are compatible.  Lionel also licensed their tech to Weaver, 3rd Rail, K-Line, Atlas.  They made money, encouraged competition, and broadened the reach of the hobby.  

The second time was the fake “going out of business” notice, encouraging quick sales while …. Again, leaving customers just wondering.  Enough said on that.

Disregard me once, shame on you, disregard me twice?  Noooooooooooo.

I agree with John. There is plenty of room in the tender for a better speaker and baffle. I've done plenty of speaker upgrades in these steam engines with greatly improved sounds and plenty of happy customers.

On the topic, I have found a nice "free" supply of perfectly sized speaker baffles. Go to to your local Taco Bell and and ask the clerk if you can have a few of the little cups they put nacho cheese in.

@Don Sierakowski 111617 posted:

The first time they made a decision to abandon Proto 1 customers by failing to make Proto 2 “backward compatible.”

Proto 1 is strictly a conventionally operated system. Proto 2 & 3 can also be operated conventionally which essentially makes them backward compatible. What backward compatibility is missing?

If you look through the commands available for the variable channels on the TIU, you will find commands strictly for the PS1 engines....