Need Link to DCS 4.20

Mike,

 

I sent you an E-mail.

Thanks Berry. I don't have high speed internet so I drive about an hour away and a friend downloads the software when I need that process completed.  Unfortunately, after downloading at his location, he dosn't have a layout that uses multiple TIU 5's.  When I first found inop channels, bringing the effected TIU into my house and on Carpet Central I was able to change a TIU 5 to a TIU 1, for troubleshooting and that restored the defective channel on that TIU, However, when I went back to the railroad layout after changing the TIU back to "5", it was again inop. Also, further TIU 5 troubleshooting revealed that if there was just one TIU 5 on, it worked correctly until I turned other on other TIU 5's too.  Is there a way to check the function of a TIU 5, after installing your fix,  or do I just plug a loading track into the TIU 5, that gets your fix, and check each channel starting with Fixed 1 with multiple TIU 5's 'ON" at his location? I assume you've been down this road before.  Just to be ahead of the problem fix, could you provide a link for 4.20 so it can be downloaded, if needed, tomorrow morning at his location with high speed internet? I was thinking I could put it in a memory stick. Hope your fix is a solution.  Thanks for the quick reply.  Moke Mike

Mike,

do I just plug a loading track into the TIU 5, that gets your fix, and check each channel starting with Fixed 1 with multiple TIU 5's 'ON" at his location?

Yes.

 

Why are you using multiple TIU #5? Please respond off forum via E-mail instead of using this thread.

 

Dave Hikel has seen my layout.
It's nearly 2600 sq ft with 3 different
levels with some loops over 350 feet.
Each loop has multiple sidings with
many nearly 60' long. Although the
sidings are all on toggles I keep one
siding hot so I can switch trains during
a train show without having to shut
down to throw a toggle on.

Nearly every train is a double headed
lash-up with one having a lash-up
plus a pusher on the end. Dave did
the wiring diagram for my first loop
around the outside loop that had 3
sidings each 80' long and that took
4 TIU's. The next addition two years
later was the first TIU 5. Multiple additions
later each required another TIU 5.
Dave also did the first TIU 5 wiring
schematic for me too.

I've read your book and utilized the
rule of about 12 track joints per section
and was able to solder Gargraves
track together to get 60' sidings with
just two sections with the center rail
cut at the 30' mark with excellent
DCS signal. That length supports
lash-ups with 40 car trains. That's
used by two trains at once with each
on the opposite side of the layout
running simultaneously. DCS allows
for running those trains at equal
spacing for at least 15 minutes before
tinkering with each engine being
tweaked as they sometime start to
catch one another. When that happens
I have 3 engines on the same DCS
section at the same time but soldered
track keeps amps at less than four
so I don't have to constantly watch
eleven Z4000's at the same time.

Of course everything is also TMCC
with a mix of Legacy lash-ups.

I don't use separate transformers for
accessories or DZ 1008's as I find the
Z4000 14V capable of handling
multiple tasks.

Lots of passenger cars with lights
also adds to power requirements.
I had Eastside Trains take two E-8
sets and move the slave A into the
trailing B. Then install another P-2
kit in the now empty trail A with a
address for an all power ABA to pull
multiple 21" cars that stretch nearly
30' in length plus the ABA.

That's why I use multiple TIU 5's.

If you'll send me an address that I
create a new e-mail with, I'd be glad
to send photos and a few videos.
The train building is 4000 sq ft. I had
it wired so that there are multiple
plug in locations in the floor and there
are 28 four tube fluorescent light
fixtures that make the room as bright
as a kitchen. The only wiring problem
I've run into is when I tried your
recommendation to run a phase wire
to each Z4000, with floor and wall out
lets at 8' apart, the number of circuit
breakers were wired so that some
outlets were out of phase to handle
all the breakers in the 300 amp
service panel. Once I labeled each
outlet to distinguish phase, the problem
had a work around fix for Z4000
phasing.

Thanks again for the help.

Mike (Moke Mike)

Mike,

 

Use E-mail, please.

I keep one
siding hot so I can switch trains during
a train show without having to shut
down to throw a toggle on.

 

Why would you have to shut down to turn a toggle on?  ANy reason why you can't just throw the toggle & hit startup?

Robert,

ANy reason why you can't just throw the toggle & hit startup?

He runs lashups and that doesn't work with lashups.

 

He most likely doesn't know the other way unless he has my book!  

He runs lashups and that doesn't work with lashups.

 

Did not know that.

Robert,

Did not know that.

It's in his long post above.

No.  I mean that startup doesn't work with lashups.

Robert,

 I mean that startup doesn't work with lashups.

Yeah, that's old news.

 

For a long time, the only known way to start up a lashup after the watchdog signal had come and gone was to turn off channel power, toggle the siding on, then turn track power back on, and then press Startup.

 

Page 102 of The DCS  O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition has the more "elegant" alternative method.

 

It's excerpted below:

If a lashup is powered on after the watchdog signal has come and gone, perhaps if its siding was toggled on after voltage appeared at the TIU channel outputs connected to its siding, there are two ways to put the lashup into DCS mode. One way to put the engine into DCS mode is to turn off power to the inputs for the TIU channel that is connected to the track upon which the lashup resides, toggle on the siding and then re-apply power. The other way is to first highlight the engine in the remote's Active or Inactive Engine list. Then, flip the toggle switch and immediately press the thumbwheel to select the engine. It will come up in DCS stealth mode, dark and silent. This also works with individual PS2 engines.

 

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Yeah, that's old news.

 

Since you write the definitive text, you have to keep up on everything.  I only have to keep up on what directly affects me, and that's taking most of my RAMM (random access mental memory)

LOL!

 

 

Status of download.  Let me keep this short by referring to the layout I went for the upgrade as "remote layout" and then my "carpet central" in the house and "railroad layout", in an outbuilding.

 

Yesterday went to remote layout with all TIU 5's, a DCS remote and a loading track. Downloaded new version of software.  I had three TIU 5's that had an inop channel before download. After all were downloaded plugged one previously defective TIU 5 into loading track.  Placed an engine that was from the remote layout on my loading track. Remote layout TIU 1, was on. My handheld already had a TIU 5 in the menu.  The engine was already loaded from "remote layout" TIU 1, into my remote. Went to inop channel with jumper from my transformer. plugged in to my transformer and  Selected start and engine started on a previously inop channel.

 

Selected second TIU and repeated that process. One previously inop channel TIU was not tested as it seemed redundant. A TIU 5 was already in my remote, however; it wasn't a TIU 5 that I had downloaded recently, I did not do a remove or add of the TIU 5, being tested.  I just tried an engine start an it worked. It only had to find one TIU 5.

 

This morning installed all TIU 5''s, back to railroad layout.  Did a remove and add on the 

TIU 5's that had been tested at remote layout. (including the 2 that had an engine start, at remote layout.)  After adding both "engine tested TIU 5's", did a start on layout engine and it gave a "engine not on track", then several seconds later it started, however; no horn or forward and reverse.  Tried all DCS channels and all were with 18V but no DCS signal. Took TIU 5 back to carpet central and deleted it from that handheld.  "Items associated will be Lost"  Took TIU 5 back to railroad layout and again did a remove of the TIU and an install, adding TIU 5 to my railroad layout remote. No success on next engine start.

 

Checked other loops of track that had TIU 5's without a previous problem and they all seem to be functional, however; I'll have to test each channel before I can confirm that. Moved my engine to loop with previous inop channel on a TIU 5, that had NOT been tested at remote layout.  Worked perfect all channels.

 

Still have one TIU that was tested at remote layout, however; haven't attempted to add it to railroad layout and remote.  

 

I've been adding and deleting TIU 5's for at least 8 years and this is a first, for me, in problem solving.  I've always been able to take a TIU 5 from carpet central and then take it to the railroad layout for an add, after deleting TIU 5 from the railroad layout remote.  

 

The only difference is that I started an engine at the remote layout with two of the TIU 5's, with bad channels and they both worked, after the software download.  When I add the effected TIU 5, and select "Super" and "All channels on" and "Variable to fixed", I get a confirmation from the lone TIU 5, that the task was completed. No "out of Range" or other abnormalities. I had bad TIU's give a "out of range" message. 

 

I'm stuck.  As I stated earlier, I have one TIU 5 left, that for now, that is a spare.  But it was tested at the remote layout, with an engine start and if that is part of the problem, I'll save it for a hopeful assist from the OGR Forum.

 

I have never done a TIU reset or a DCS remote reset.

 

Thank You, Moke Mike

Interesting thread which brings up  a few questions for me.   I know that having  2 tiu with the same address can be a problem (big time). Has the software been changed to allow for multiple tiu #5s?

 

I take all the tiu have been set for super mode ?

 

Although perhaps not necessary adding engine to a single tiu is good house keeping especially with lash-ups. You  would know what tiu the engines are associated with.

 

Avoid the read especially with that many tiu.

 

One  great thing about dcs is... The engines carry on with the last command given so there may be long sections of track where the dcs signal is not required at all.

 

Now that the super mode scrolling issues have been fixed with 4.3 I not sure I would go back to 4.2 unless it's absolutely necessary. I guess it depends on how many tiu #5s you can have?

 

What if?? you had a hundred & fifty   foot train room.    With a tiu #5  at one end and a tiu #5 at the other end. Not likely the remote would talk to both unless standing exactly in the middle of the room. Even then doubtful. just some thoughts.

 

 

 

Gregg,

Interesting thread which brings up  a few questions for me.   I know that having  2 tiu with the same address can be a problem (big time). Has the software been changed to allow 

No, it has not.

 

Using more than 5 TIUs remains, as always, not recommended, particularly with a new release such as DCS 4.30.

Thanks ,I was hoping you'd answer. That pretty well answers some of the problems  on really large layouts.

Thank You for your reply. All the TIU's
have been set to "Super". All worked correctly with software 4.20, however 4.3 caused some TIU's to lose one channel for operations on TIU 5's.

Although MTH does not recommend the practice of having identical addresses
using TIU 5's, large layouts have been using it for sometime and my use goes back to around 2004. During that time I had no conflicts using identical addresses.

You can't use the numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4 as duplicate
addresses.

The TIU 5's are not placed in a central location, but closer to their center of operation. Your example of having one TIU at one end of a building 150 feet apart from another TIU 5, is exactly what I have been using for nearly 10 years and TIU 1 Will work with both of them in communications.

When version 4.30 came out, it was recognized that multiple addresses with the new software presented some problems on channels that were
numbered TIU 5. The information that I got was a software was going to be released to remedy that problem. That is why I downloaded for 4.32.

If you're familiar with Tony Lashes huge layout he was confined, at first, with only using 5 TIU's. Later that restriction was lifted and large layouts that are usually club size and over 50 to 60 feet long and 40 feet wide use the same address associated with TIU 5.

It's not an approved MTH procedure, however it is what is being used for large layout operators. Without that capability many large layouts would have to go back to the drawing board and come up with an alternate procedure once they started experiencing TIU 5 problems.

You're right about the engine continuing to do what it was doing when it lost its signal. However with two trains on the same track and one engine losing the capability of being controlled, could lead to the inability to stop the engine before it ran into another train. Remember that when you lose the signal, although the engine is still moving forward, you can't sound the horn or speed up or slow down while it's in that dead zone.

So, the beauty of having a train losing its signal and continuing to do what it was doing, works fine if you're only running one train on one loop.

Thanks again for your reply.

Mike Mike

Mike,

 

Some clarification is in order...

Although MTH does not recommend the practice of having identical addresses

using TIU 5's, large layouts have been using it for sometime and my use goes back to around 2004. During that time I had no conflicts using identical addresses.

Then go back to 4.20 and see if that works. If it does, you'll have to stay there, at least for the foreseeable future.

When version 4.30 came out, it was recognized that multiple addresses with the new software presented some problems on channels that were

numbered TIU 5. The information that I got was a software was going to be released to remedy that problem. That is why I downloaded for 4.32.

First, where did you get your information that "software was going to be released to remedy that problem"? There was never any proviso or feature discussed that would allow more than 5 TIUs to be legitimately used on  a single layout.

 

Second, there is no DCS 4.32. So, what did you actually download and where did you get it?

If you're familiar with Tony Lashes huge layout he was confined, at first, with only using 5 TIU's. Later that restriction was lifted and large layouts that are usually club size and over 50 to 60 feet long and 40 feet wide use the same address associated with TIU 5.

There are, indeed, clubs and large layouts that use multiple TIUs numbered "5". However, that so-called "restriction" was never "lifted". It works because it just works - in DCS 4.20. However, that was never any guarantee that future releases would continue to somehow support it.

 

There is no guarantee that any future release is going to help you with this problem. I'v been in the DCS beta program for the past 10+ years and, although the topic of more than 5 TIUs has been discussed with MTH R&D, there has never, to the best of my knowledge, been any commitment that it ever would be a new feature.

 

I suggest that if you want to use more than 5 TIUs, you simply go back to DCS 4.20.

Thank You for your reply. All the TIU's
have been set to "Super". All worked correctly with software 4.20, however 4.3 caused some TIU's to lose one channel for operations on TIU 5's.

 

.....................................................................

 

 I take it you're not  saying  even  if you only have one tiu#5 in super  ,  one channel doesn't work? Only if you have more than one tiu #5  you lose a channel. Since Tiu don't communicate with each other I just don't get it.  How would tiu #5 know there's another tiu #5?  What do you lose? remote tiu communications or track signal? I can test it next week though and get back to you. Which channel gives up the ghost ? We have 4 tiu and  a couple of spares I could test with. I don't know what the answer is for really large indoor or out door layouts. We  have about 7 or 8 scale miles of single main line  track ../sidings yards etc.

Thank you again for your reply. After downloading version 4.30, I lost one channel in each of three TIU 5's. The originally worked perfect on version 4.20 however, I was having some problems with some Proto 3 engines and their signal acquisition capabilities. So I thought upgrading to version 4.30 would be an improvement.

After I contacted Barry and he supplied me with a later version that is 4.32.1. That enhanced the other TIU 5's, but two that I had done an engine start at the remote layout did not perform correctly and had no DCS usable signal although I had 18 VAC.

I just finished running all other trains with some lash ups on all of the other good TIU's and I noticed a tremendous improvement in signal strength to both Proto 2 and Proto 3 engines. I originally had a very strong signal with version 4.20, however; that signal strength deteriorated significantly when I downloaded version 4.30. I'm glad that I did get the latest software although there seems to be and identified problem that I'm still chasing.
How do I know that I changed signal strength? Running version 4.20, no engine Iexhibited a signal quality less than 9, and blowing the horn presented a very short blast as it should unless it's on a portion of the track that has poor signal and then the horn will continue to sound until it finds the signal again.

With version 4.30, two engines could no longer travel the entire loop without several sections allowing the horn to continue sound for up to 20 feet. Then downloading version 4.3 2.1, returned the operation of engines to a high signal number and no horn blowing irregularities in any portion of the loops.

As I find out anything new, I'll post it back to the forum. To recap none of the operational TIU 5's have any channels Inop.

Thanks

Mike Mike

 

Thanks Mike for the update. I'm hoping  others share their experiences with large layouts.  Our layout is divided into four sections  a tiu for each section ,  It's just one big loop. We have  only 2 rules.. If you use  a main line switch line it back when done. and don't run into the guy ahead of you. We only run in one direction with inexperienced operators.

 A train going around the loop  travels over   16 channel (var set to fxd). It takes about 20 minutes to go around once at about 20 or 25 mph.  We do have TMCC  as well but seldom use it.

As I mentioned before we add everything to tiu #1 Hopefully this thread keeps going.

Testing..here are a few things that may or may not help you, I mentioned we add everything (engines) to tiu 1. However if we wanted to test the layout section that is controlled by  SAY tiu #4 , we shut down everything except tiu #4,. Yes the train even though add to  Tiu #1 will run just fine  in tiu 4s  track zone. At this time I might even push a  lighted car into other TIU  dead tiu zones just to make sure an insulated center rail joint has failed. I sometimes do it on channel by channel.. (not very often though)

 

What my point..... Do you test a single  tiu#5 zone on the big layout  with no other tiu's receiving power? If you can get a good signal then the tiu is working.

 

 We've also done the antenna modification by drilling a hole and sticking the antenna straight up. (be careful It'll break off easily) I wouldn't do it with tiu #5s because you want the remote to talk to only one at a time. Another option might be to have a remote tethered  to each  tiu #5 but that might be a pain. 

 

Thanks again for your reply and your suggestions. One thing that I did discover that I brought up in one of my posts that you probably missed, is that when I originally discovered the three track interface units with one channel inoperative, was that if I turned off all TIU 5's, except one, the track interface 5 and unit worked correctly. I normally would have had a problem understanding what was going on, however; I had been pre-warned when the problem first started, that it was a software problem associated with version 4.30 for multiple TIU 5's.

To get back to your comments about checking each channel, one at a time to ensure that each channel is not connected to another channel, I perform that test from the beginning of the troubleshooting period.

Also, I only use TIU1, for loading the engines and I found out a long time ago that with that track interface unit off, I could still run engines on any other track interface unit channel. That ability allows much easier operation of a single loop controlled by a single track Interface unit, when testing a specific loop with an engine, and later train car that is being pulled by the engine, without having to have everything on at the same time.

I'm still working on a few more solutions and until I actually try them, they are only good guesses at this point. Another test that I performed is I use a passenger car frame, with the shell removed, that has three 24 volt bulbs to run over each channel, along with each siding, to ensure that voltage is present when it should be and not present when it shouldn't be. That insures that the track interface unit channel is working correctly for 18 V and that each toggle switch is operating correctly too. No need to discover that there is a problem using a operating engine.

As for the antenna configuration, all of the track interface units have the antenna on the outside of the unit that comes through the hole that was drilled for that purpose. You have to put multiple track Interface units, with many assigned TIU 5, in context, as they have been working together flawlessly for over 10 years. There was never a conflict with one another and engines and lash ups worked as if there were only five track interface units. As Barry stated, the reason that the multiple TIU 5's work together isn't fully understood, however, they just do. It's like the mystery of the lightbulb. No one quite understands the whole process other than it just works. There are lots of conjecture on why that is, but not fully explained.

However, that operational ability stopped after downloading version 4.30. The rest has been lots of troubleshooting, which led to a new software download, that may have a fix for that problem.

All TIU 5's now work again flawlessly, except for the two that I tested at the remote layout with an engine start. I no longer have any channel issues with any TIU on the layout, except for just those two. The software that I downloaded over version 4.30, didn't hinder multiple track interface units from working together with the same address.

One thing that I am aware of is that large layouts present problems that most operators won't encounter. There existence is really rare to have more than five track interface units. Consequently, the knowledgebase is a lot less for available troubleshooting and operational problems. The only reason I knew the of existence of more than five track interface units was through Dave Hikel, who drew out the wiring diagrams for my layout as I transitioned into DCS. At that time, he explained there was an ability to fool the DCS operating system with more than one TIU 5, as the software didn't recognize that it was talking to more than one TIU 5. That ability was present before version 4.20 was ever issued. Then using the newer version 4.20, when it came out, didn't change that capability. Then came version 4.30, and Dave Hikel told me that he and Barry had discussed the issue and found out that using version 4.30, could potentially make one or multiple channels on a system with multiple TIU 5, in operative. Once I had at that information, I was able to approach troubleshooting completely differently. It wasn't a layout problem, but a software problem, that changed the ability to have multiple TIU 5's. If Dave Hikel wouldn't have alerted me to that potential, I still would be at a complete loss as to its cause and I probably would have ordered new track interface units and sent the ones not working to MTH.

I promise to get back to you, probably sometime this afternoon, with what I have managed to discover from a few more troubleshooting steps. And I will tell you that I have moved known fully operational track interface units to other loops in the troubleshooting process.

Thanks again for your input and I hope some other readers will be able to utilize this information, in the future, as more of a knowledge base is expanded.

Moke Mike

Mike,

Dave Hikel told me that he and Barry had discussed the issue and found out that using version 4.30, could potentially make one or multiple channels on a system with multiple TIU 5, in operative.

That's not accurate.

 

Since I had the conversation with Dave, let me tell you what exactly is the problem.

 

The real issue is that any TIU, with any TIU ID#, can potentially lose the DCS signal on one random channel after upgrading to 4.30. This is not an issue specific to multiple TIUs numbered "5". This occurs in approx. 1 in 8 TIUs. The Rev. of the TIU appears not to be a factor.

 

This only occurs when operating in Super TIU mode, which is why this problem hasn't been widely, or even minimally, reported.

 

The TIU software which I sent you, that you should have not posted about on an open forum, and which I asked you to comment about via E-mail (a request that you ignored), appears to correct the problem.

 

Further, you never responded to my post where I asked you the following,  extracted from my previous post:

When version 4.30 came out, it was recognized that multiple addresses with the new software presented some problems on channels that were

numbered TIU 5. The information that I got was a software was going to be released to remedy that problem. That is why I downloaded for 4.32.

First, where did you get your information that "software was going to be released to remedy that problem"? There was never any proviso or feature discussed that would allow more than 5 TIUs to be legitimately used on  a single layout.

 

Second, there is no DCS 4.32. So, what did you actually download and where did you get it?

 

Whatever issues you're having are not going to be alleviated by MTH in the near term. You're breaking the rules for DCS. If you want to put all of this behind you, you should just go back to 4.20.There appears to be a loophole there that is, possibly or possibly not, going to be closed for future releases.

 

Alternatively, you say that you have your layout working with 4.30 (plus the TIU software that I sent you, and which I'm close to retargeting that I did), so why not just go enjoy your trains?

please tell me how to reply to "just an e-mail"?
My I Phone doesn't work for that purpose and my laptop allows me to respond to an e-mail, but not to just an e-mail.

I would think that you have a personal email address that is used for these purposes when contacting the OGR website that isn't your home email. Such as barry@ogrforum.com. That private Address would allow me to share my home email address with you.

I sincerely apologize for any inconvenience.

Mike Mike

The real issue is that any TIU, with any TIU ID#, can potentially lose the DCS signal on one random channel after upgrading to 4.30. This is not an issue specific to multiple TIUs numbered "5". This occurs in approx. 1 in 8 TIUs. The Rev. of the TIU appears not to be a factor.

 

This only occurs when operating in Super TIU mode, which is why this problem hasn't been widely, or even minimally, reported.

 

Yikes!!  one in eight tiu.  Have this issue been fixed?

Gregg,

 

Yes, it's been fixed in beta. If you haven't seen it with your TIUs in Super mode, then those TIUs don't have the problem.

Ok thx.We're lucky to have you. Can't believe I just said that.

Mike,

I would think that you have a personal email address that is used for these purposes when contacting the OGR website that isn't your home email. Such as barry@ogrforum.com. That private Address would allow me to share my home email address with you.

All you had to do was respond to the E-mail I sent to you on March 2nd.

 

Alternately, my E-mail address is in my forum profile.

Gregg,

We're lucky to have you

I'l treasure that forever...  

Ok thx.... Can't believe I just said that.

Why can't you?  More people should follow your example.

 

 

 

Hey Mike thanks for the come back. I was curious whether you've  ever used the remote in speed mode? I haven't but might give it a try. (just to try)  I don't think I could go back to 4.2 with the scrolling issues.

 

 I'm happy you started the thread. 1 in 8

 

This should answer many questions that have come up. The last corrective action I reported was that after installing a TIU 5, that had an engine started at the remote layout, I could not get a DCS signal, although I had 18V.  After that had failed and without any additional guidance, that was new information, I decided to try the 2nd TIU that had also had the engine started on the remote layout.  I went through the whole process of deleting the TIU 5 from carpet central and then going to the railroad layout and through the handheld, removing TIU 5, then installing the second TIU 5, set to super, all channels on, all fixed voltage.  Still no engine would start.  Tried a second engine on the same loop that had just run last weekend for several hours and also tried a different DCS remote.  No start.  "Engine Not on Track".  

 

Moved engine to another loop with a lower number of track footage, that had the 3rd TIU 5, that had never had a test start on it and the engine ran smoothly.  I've stated that before, but let me try to keep the info. linked in this message.  That would rule out the engine and the DCS remotes.  Trying to start a second engine hadn't worked so I put the second engine on the operational loop and it too started.  Both ran perfectly through all channels with good signal strength.

 

Nothing left to do but to move the "operational TIU 5", that had never had an engine start on it at the remote layout,(that originally had one channel inop before the new software from Barry.) to the loop that would not start an engine. That, at least, will get the layup back in operation as one TIU 5 isn't a Main Line and the other was a spare TIU 5.  Again, using the DCS remote, removed TIU 5, installed TIU 5, super, all channels on, all fixed. At least I'll still be able to operate the layout after this.  Engine would not start!  Tried second engine on same loop that had just worked on other loop with another DCS remote and no start? What a surprise as I thought this was a done deal.  I just started both on another loop with this very same TIU 5.

 

To troubleshoot further, moved previously added TIU 5 that would not produce a DCS signal, that I discarded as "inop", to the loop with a shorter amount in track footage and after the install, placed both engines on that loop and both started on what I had considered a problem TIU 5? 

 

That left only two  possibilities left.  Two engines that had the same problem or the loop I was using the TIU 5's, for testing.  The loop has been in place for years and had always had signal strength of 10's and a couple of 9's.  A lot of work to check everything from square one when it's easier to check engines first.  The unlikely scenario of both engines being the problem, was disregarded, to confirm there wasn't an engine problem.  Both batteries were only 4 years old.  I use an Excel spread sheet in a data base to track each engine and one item tracked is battery life and date to replace.  

 

I always have new batteries charged for when I have a maintenance downtime.  First engine was a 9V without a charging port.  Removed shell and checked battery and it was showing a full charge on the volt meter.  Replaced with new battery received last month.

Also had a full charge.  Second engine had a 3 volt battery that I had just recharged over night and showed 2.72 volts on the volt meter.  The highest I've ever seen is 2.89. Replaced with new 3 volt battery showing 2.8 volts.  All wheels and roller were just cleaned and the track had also just been cleaned, all after a weekend train show.

 

Placed both engines back on troubled loop and both engines started!  Both engines had previously started on other loops and both showed full charged batteries.  Neither had failed to start earlier or hesitated or stalled.  Neither had shown any performance irregularities or signal strength issues. The second engine was connected to a 20 car train and pulling that load had never stalled or any other single irregularity.  

 

After both engines ran the loop to confirm all channels were working correctly, did a signal test which again, for that loop, was all 10's and a few 9's.  No dirty track, wheels or rollers.  

 

The only thing I can pin to the 9 volt engine is the repetitive starts after 4.30 was installed and the troubleshooting of the bad channel.  That problem was temporarily fixed with a work around by jumping an output wire to a working channel.  The only other start it had was when it started on the other loop on a TIU 5 that had a software download over the 2.30 version.  

 

The 3 volt engine is very hard to come up with a conclusion on why with a battery that showed a full charge, didn't start.  I know you can't trust a volt meter reading on a battery after 5 years.  You're really reading a surface charge and not an amperage capacity of the battery under a load.  Sometimes, using a light bulb on the battery post for 30 to 45 seconds will allow you to watch the bulb get dimmer.  If it's still bright after 30 seconds, it's usually serviceable.  After 5 years replace it anyway.  

 

All this work for low batteries? In full disclosure it has a result of that being the case. However, since 2001, with the introduction of Proto 2, never have had two engines fail to start on one track and then, under a different TIU control, work perfectly.  There's got to be more than signal strength working here.  Everything is 14 ga wire and all wired with almost the same number of feet per channel.  If it were just one engine in a specific location, I would be humble, however; the other engine was 50' away from the first engine on a different channel and different DCS remote.

 

Regardless, I thank  everyone who participated. I can safely say that the version of software that I downloaded over version 4.30, fixed three TIU 5's with one channel on each inoperative.  That doesn't usually happen without asking MTH for an RA number to get the TIU's repaired.  Also, I can also attest to the capability of the latest software to support multiple TIU 5's in Super, to work as well as they did with 4.20.

 

To recap part of another part of 4.30 and signal strength in Super, it had some problems.

Proto 2 engines got lost on the track in many locations and had horns that would not shut off until getting out of the dark spot.  Proto 3 engines in a lash-up, had the trailing engine either not start or not move, when the front engine did.  I experimented with those lash-up using the BCR rule of waiting 30 seconds after voltage, before a start and that worked most of the time. Also, the signal was weak enough to have the lash-up behave as a TMCC engine that couldn't find a good signal.  No matter how fast you advanced the Z4000 throttle, they would still start with voltage applied.  However, it sometimes took 5 to 7 seconds for that unwanted start. I recognize that what worked or didn't work on my layout may have no consequence on any other layout.  There's a big difference and those using the recommended number of TIU's may have fault free operation.  I'm using a procedure not recommended or approved by MTH.  (It just works)

Reminds me of hacking into software to find a weak spot and exploiting it.

 

Barry, thanks so much for your help enabling me to get things running without going back to 4.20.  I'm sure that some issues were resolved when using 4.30.  You were on top of the issue from the very beginning furnishing me links for the TIU software download at the remote layout with the high speed internet.  I hope you appreciate my candor and transparency. I just can't believe the number of dominoes that had to fall for two engines to work on one TIU and not the other, when both TIU's were working, using two different DCS remotes. I don't think it's a normal troubleshooting sequence to suspect engines, after a software download that was performed to correct inoperative TIU channels.  Remember, you always go back to what you did last to logically find the problem.

 

Thank You

 

Moke Mike

 

 

 

 

 

Mike     Starting engines with 4.2 in other tiu zones that the engine was added to was a well know problem. It happen always not just now & then.     They just would not  start or even be found.  Just another thought that might enter the pic. Very frustrating ,This issue has been fixed with 4.3

I've never added an engine in any TIU but TIU 1.
I believe that became a rule in 2010, when 4.20 came out.
The engine wouldn't load, on my layout, after it came out.
I used to use TIU 3, as it was the highest point on my layout,
but it kept coming back "no engine found".

Also, I have a 5' length of loading track next to TIU 1, that I plug into Fixed 1, OUT, and other channels toggled off, so the search is only 50" long.

Thanks

Moke Mike