Originally Posted by mokemike:
Thanks again for your reply and your suggestions. One thing that I did discover that I brought up in one of my posts that you probably missed, is that when I originally discovered the three track interface units with one channel inoperative, was that if I turned off all TIU 5's, except one, the track interface 5 and unit worked correctly. I normally would have had a problem understanding what was going on, however; I had been pre-warned when the problem first started, that it was a software problem associated with version 4.30 for multiple TIU 5's.
To get back to your comments about checking each channel, one at a time to ensure that each channel is not connected to another channel, I perform that test from the beginning of the troubleshooting period.
Also, I only use TIU1, for loading the engines and I found out a long time ago that with that track interface unit off, I could still run engines on any other track interface unit channel. That ability allows much easier operation of a single loop controlled by a single track Interface unit, when testing a specific loop with an engine, and later train car that is being pulled by the engine, without having to have everything on at the same time.
I'm still working on a few more solutions and until I actually try them, they are only good guesses at this point. Another test that I performed is I use a passenger car frame, with the shell removed, that has three 24 volt bulbs to run over each channel, along with each siding, to ensure that voltage is present when it should be and not present when it shouldn't be. That insures that the track interface unit channel is working correctly for 18 V and that each toggle switch is operating correctly too. No need to discover that there is a problem using a operating engine.
As for the antenna configuration, all of the track interface units have the antenna on the outside of the unit that comes through the hole that was drilled for that purpose. You have to put multiple track Interface units, with many assigned TIU 5, in context, as they have been working together flawlessly for over 10 years. There was never a conflict with one another and engines and lash ups worked as if there were only five track interface units. As Barry stated, the reason that the multiple TIU 5's work together isn't fully understood, however, they just do. It's like the mystery of the lightbulb. No one quite understands the whole process other than it just works. There are lots of conjecture on why that is, but not fully explained.
However, that operational ability stopped after downloading version 4.30. The rest has been lots of troubleshooting, which led to a new software download, that may have a fix for that problem.
All TIU 5's now work again flawlessly, except for the two that I tested at the remote layout with an engine start. I no longer have any channel issues with any TIU on the layout, except for just those two. The software that I downloaded over version 4.30, didn't hinder multiple track interface units from working together with the same address.
One thing that I am aware of is that large layouts present problems that most operators won't encounter. There existence is really rare to have more than five track interface units. Consequently, the knowledgebase is a lot less for available troubleshooting and operational problems. The only reason I knew the of existence of more than five track interface units was through Dave Hikel, who drew out the wiring diagrams for my layout as I transitioned into DCS. At that time, he explained there was an ability to fool the DCS operating system with more than one TIU 5, as the software didn't recognize that it was talking to more than one TIU 5. That ability was present before version 4.20 was ever issued. Then using the newer version 4.20, when it came out, didn't change that capability. Then came version 4.30, and Dave Hikel told me that he and Barry had discussed the issue and found out that using version 4.30, could potentially make one or multiple channels on a system with multiple TIU 5, in operative. Once I had at that information, I was able to approach troubleshooting completely differently. It wasn't a layout problem, but a software problem, that changed the ability to have multiple TIU 5's. If Dave Hikel wouldn't have alerted me to that potential, I still would be at a complete loss as to its cause and I probably would have ordered new track interface units and sent the ones not working to MTH.
I promise to get back to you, probably sometime this afternoon, with what I have managed to discover from a few more troubleshooting steps. And I will tell you that I have moved known fully operational track interface units to other loops in the troubleshooting process.
Thanks again for your input and I hope some other readers will be able to utilize this information, in the future, as more of a knowledge base is expanded.
Moke Mike
This should answer many questions that have come up. The last corrective action I reported was that after installing a TIU 5, that had an engine started at the remote layout, I could not get a DCS signal, although I had 18V. After that had failed and without any additional guidance, that was new information, I decided to try the 2nd TIU that had also had the engine started on the remote layout. I went through the whole process of deleting the TIU 5 from carpet central and then going to the railroad layout and through the handheld, removing TIU 5, then installing the second TIU 5, set to super, all channels on, all fixed voltage. Still no engine would start. Tried a second engine on the same loop that had just run last weekend for several hours and also tried a different DCS remote. No start. "Engine Not on Track".
Moved engine to another loop with a lower number of track footage, that had the 3rd TIU 5, that had never had a test start on it and the engine ran smoothly. I've stated that before, but let me try to keep the info. linked in this message. That would rule out the engine and the DCS remotes. Trying to start a second engine hadn't worked so I put the second engine on the operational loop and it too started. Both ran perfectly through all channels with good signal strength.
Nothing left to do but to move the "operational TIU 5", that had never had an engine start on it at the remote layout,(that originally had one channel inop before the new software from Barry.) to the loop that would not start an engine. That, at least, will get the layup back in operation as one TIU 5 isn't a Main Line and the other was a spare TIU 5. Again, using the DCS remote, removed TIU 5, installed TIU 5, super, all channels on, all fixed. At least I'll still be able to operate the layout after this. Engine would not start! Tried second engine on same loop that had just worked on other loop with another DCS remote and no start? What a surprise as I thought this was a done deal. I just started both on another loop with this very same TIU 5.
To troubleshoot further, moved previously added TIU 5 that would not produce a DCS signal, that I discarded as "inop", to the loop with a shorter amount in track footage and after the install, placed both engines on that loop and both started on what I had considered a problem TIU 5?
That left only two possibilities left. Two engines that had the same problem or the loop I was using the TIU 5's, for testing. The loop has been in place for years and had always had signal strength of 10's and a couple of 9's. A lot of work to check everything from square one when it's easier to check engines first. The unlikely scenario of both engines being the problem, was disregarded, to confirm there wasn't an engine problem. Both batteries were only 4 years old. I use an Excel spread sheet in a data base to track each engine and one item tracked is battery life and date to replace.
I always have new batteries charged for when I have a maintenance downtime. First engine was a 9V without a charging port. Removed shell and checked battery and it was showing a full charge on the volt meter. Replaced with new battery received last month.
Also had a full charge. Second engine had a 3 volt battery that I had just recharged over night and showed 2.72 volts on the volt meter. The highest I've ever seen is 2.89. Replaced with new 3 volt battery showing 2.8 volts. All wheels and roller were just cleaned and the track had also just been cleaned, all after a weekend train show.
Placed both engines back on troubled loop and both engines started! Both engines had previously started on other loops and both showed full charged batteries. Neither had failed to start earlier or hesitated or stalled. Neither had shown any performance irregularities or signal strength issues. The second engine was connected to a 20 car train and pulling that load had never stalled or any other single irregularity.
After both engines ran the loop to confirm all channels were working correctly, did a signal test which again, for that loop, was all 10's and a few 9's. No dirty track, wheels or rollers.
The only thing I can pin to the 9 volt engine is the repetitive starts after 4.30 was installed and the troubleshooting of the bad channel. That problem was temporarily fixed with a work around by jumping an output wire to a working channel. The only other start it had was when it started on the other loop on a TIU 5 that had a software download over the 2.30 version.
The 3 volt engine is very hard to come up with a conclusion on why with a battery that showed a full charge, didn't start. I know you can't trust a volt meter reading on a battery after 5 years. You're really reading a surface charge and not an amperage capacity of the battery under a load. Sometimes, using a light bulb on the battery post for 30 to 45 seconds will allow you to watch the bulb get dimmer. If it's still bright after 30 seconds, it's usually serviceable. After 5 years replace it anyway.
All this work for low batteries? In full disclosure it has a result of that being the case. However, since 2001, with the introduction of Proto 2, never have had two engines fail to start on one track and then, under a different TIU control, work perfectly. There's got to be more than signal strength working here. Everything is 14 ga wire and all wired with almost the same number of feet per channel. If it were just one engine in a specific location, I would be humble, however; the other engine was 50' away from the first engine on a different channel and different DCS remote.
Regardless, I thank everyone who participated. I can safely say that the version of software that I downloaded over version 4.30, fixed three TIU 5's with one channel on each inoperative. That doesn't usually happen without asking MTH for an RA number to get the TIU's repaired. Also, I can also attest to the capability of the latest software to support multiple TIU 5's in Super, to work as well as they did with 4.20.
To recap part of another part of 4.30 and signal strength in Super, it had some problems.
Proto 2 engines got lost on the track in many locations and had horns that would not shut off until getting out of the dark spot. Proto 3 engines in a lash-up, had the trailing engine either not start or not move, when the front engine did. I experimented with those lash-up using the BCR rule of waiting 30 seconds after voltage, before a start and that worked most of the time. Also, the signal was weak enough to have the lash-up behave as a TMCC engine that couldn't find a good signal. No matter how fast you advanced the Z4000 throttle, they would still start with voltage applied. However, it sometimes took 5 to 7 seconds for that unwanted start. I recognize that what worked or didn't work on my layout may have no consequence on any other layout. There's a big difference and those using the recommended number of TIU's may have fault free operation. I'm using a procedure not recommended or approved by MTH. (It just works)
Reminds me of hacking into software to find a weak spot and exploiting it.
Barry, thanks so much for your help enabling me to get things running without going back to 4.20. I'm sure that some issues were resolved when using 4.30. You were on top of the issue from the very beginning furnishing me links for the TIU software download at the remote layout with the high speed internet. I hope you appreciate my candor and transparency. I just can't believe the number of dominoes that had to fall for two engines to work on one TIU and not the other, when both TIU's were working, using two different DCS remotes. I don't think it's a normal troubleshooting sequence to suspect engines, after a software download that was performed to correct inoperative TIU channels. Remember, you always go back to what you did last to logically find the problem.
Thank You
Moke Mike