New Layout & Nervous Newbie

Wire as two separate ISOLATED LOOPS! Also Keep Sections no longer than 12 to 13 sections, REGARDLESS OF SECTION LENGTH. Isolate between these districts of track.

NO you will have no problem running between loops or districts (over the isolation points) buy keeping both at 18 volts.

You can use two power bricks. Use one on Fixed one on the TIU and the other on Fixed 2. Also power the TIU externally as if you short Loop one and trip the breaker YOU WILL LOSE CONTROL OF LOOP TWO or whatever is powered by FIXED ONE.

Lastly Spend the small amount of money and get Barry's Book from the MTH WEB SITE! It is worth every penny. Download version is $14.95 I think.

DON'T BE AFRAID TO ASK QUESTION HERE ON THE FORUM!!! MOST are very knowledgeable while some maybe not so much.

1. Put a brick on each loop. Isolate the crossovers.

2. If the voltage is the same and the transformers are in phase, no problem going from one to the other.

3. Essentially, no, but a Protosound engine sitting on a siding thats toggled off misses the watchdog signal from the TIU and will start on its own when the siding is powered up. It wont take off, but it the sounds will start up. 

Thank you both for the helpful information.  

Be sure to "phase" your two power sources.  Otherwise your engines will "spark"   at the junctions.

Curtis,

You wrote:

"Wire as two separate ISOLATED LOOPS! Also Keep Sections no longer than 12 to 13 sections, REGARDLESS OF SECTION LENGTH. Isolate between these districts of track."

As a beginner to O gauge myself, I am wondering why you have to limit the number of sections. If you have a separate transformer for the isolated loop, wouldn't it power lots more sections than 12 to 13?    (In HO gauge, I had huge isolated  loops.)

Thanks,

Mannyrock

Mannyrock,

I believe the limit to sections of track has more to do with the signal strength from the TIU and not power needed for sections of track.

@Mannyrock posted:

Curtis,

You wrote:

"Wire as two separate ISOLATED LOOPS! Also Keep Sections no longer than 12 to 13 sections, REGARDLESS OF SECTION LENGTH. Isolate between these districts of track."

As a beginner to O gauge myself, I am wondering why you have to limit the number of sections. If you have a separate transformer for the isolated loop, wouldn't it power lots more sections than 12 to 13?    (In HO gauge, I had huge isolated  loops.)

Thanks,

Mannyrock

 

Yes, it will power more than 12-13 track sections. It can most likely power both loops or even the entire layout. BUT!!!! You are after a solid DCS Signal. You want to eliminate any possibility of the signal getting confused. When I did my layout I did not do sections I wired for complete loops. Never had any problems till I started running lash ups and passenger trains. After talking extensively with Barry Brokowitz and having him give me a reason other than do it this way, I realized that the signal will actually go both directions from the feed point and when they meet they get scrambled. Corrected the wiring, NEVER EVER HAD ANY HINT OF A PROBLEM! Will it work the other way doing a complete loop or layout, YES. But why ask for trouble if you can ELIMINATE IT FROM THE START! You are still using the same transformer to power all the loops and sections. You are simply running feeders from a section of 12-13 pieces of track to a Terminal block and from the terminal block to the TIU. I run 4 loops (Terminal Blocks) to all 4 positions on one of my TIU's and set the variable channels to either fixed or Z Track. And YES my loops are huge. Room is roughly 36'x 50' and filled with train track

@SteveJM posted:

Mannyrock,

I believe the limit to sections of track has more to do with the signal strength from the TIU and not power needed for sections of track.

Bingo Give that man a prize!

My two cents.  If you have not already started purchasing items, I would consider Ross for track.  And with the future of MTH in question, think about Lionel for your control system.  This answer may start a firestorm.  I am going to the Arctic now for a vacation.

Loose has tight advice IMO.  The Lionel system hooks to the layout with one wire. I have found it to be very reliable WITH that single wire, over my 250+ feet of track length.  

The basic difference between the Lionel TMCC/Legacy system, and the MTH DCS system: Lionel uses the "common" (ground) system of the whole house as an antenna- broadcasting a radio signal (FM for TMCC, and 2.4gHz- like a cell phone for Legacy) to the antennas in the locomotives, cars, switches and accessories.  Not through the track.  So track connections are not as critical.

Lots of TMCC equipment is available, new old stock and pre-owned, and Lionel is introducing new stuff all the time.  Also- they are launching Lion Chief Plus 2.0 stuff that also runs using the TMCC or Legacy remotes, AND/OR using their Lion Chief Universal Remote AND/OR smart phones and tablets.  And you can run regular Lion Chief set locomotives from your kids or friends' kids layouts.  And you can buy a lot of Lion Chief Plus stuff that runs with those remotes (or the Lion Chief Universal Remote)

The other significant difference (to my mind) Lionel's system is used by 3-Rail (Sunset), Atlas, and was used by K-Line as well.   The other companies (other than MTH) using DCS?  Hmmmm..

I'm following Loosey to the Arctic.  It's about to heat up in here.

Great answers to my questions.  Thanks!

Mannyrock

@Loose-Caboose posted:

My two cents.  If you have not already started purchasing items, I would consider Ross for track.  And with the future of MTH in question, think about Lionel for your control system.  This answer may start a firestorm.  I am going to the Arctic now for a vacation.

A bit late for me to change now.  I have been purchasing all of the MTH equipment over the years waiting for my daughter to move out of the room I'm building my layout in.  I have everything I need except a few Atlas switches that seem hard to find.    

@SantaFeJim posted:

Be sure to "phase" your two power sources.  Otherwise your engines will "spark"   at the junctions.

Is phasing two Lionel Powerhouse units pretty straight forward?  Especially if they are purchased within the past couple years?  

I am pretty sure they have three-prong grounded plugs.  The phasing thing is for older equipment that did not have three-prongs.

Stay wiht DCS.  I have both DCS and Legacy, and run both MTH and Lional trains on DCS.  DCS user friendly and easy to use....works great. 

If you bought the DCS go with it.  You will be glad you did.  With DCS (I recommend the Wi-Fi as well) you can control everything.  With Legacy, I don't think you can control an MTH engine.

John

My layout is a twice around the room main line, 11ft x 22ft. it is a little larger than your layout, but not by much. I have two 180W bricks, one powers channels 1 &2, the other powers channels 3 & 4. I have each quadrant of my layout powered by a channel, through a terminal block using a maximum of 9 wire feeds (I had problems when I used more feeds of a single terminal block). 

I cut the center power rail to isolate each track feed wire block. This prevents the DCS signal from running into the signal from another power feed block. As stated already, you want a maximum of about 12 track joint connections in each block, with the power feed in the middle of the block (about 6 track joints on each side).

My loop has 4 channels covering the loop, with about 1/4 of the loop fed by each channel. You run a pair of feed wires from the TIU to the terminal block, located let say, in each corner of your layout. From the terminal block, you run a pair of wires to each track block section. I use switches to separate blocks when practical. You can use a dremel type tool to cut the center rails to separate blocks.

Your lift out or duck under section, where you access the center of the layout, would be one of the terminal block division points. This minimizes the wiring that must "span" the entry walkway.

The ways described by others will also work. I used the method described above to minimize my total wire lengths.

@jbmccormick posted:

If you bought the DCS go with it.  You will be glad you did.  With DCS (I recommend the Wi-Fi as well) you can control everything.  With Legacy, I don't think you can control an MTH engine.

John

I did luckily manage to get the Wi-Fi bundle package.

@Joe K posted:

My layout is a twice around the room main line, 11ft x 22ft. it is a little larger than your layout, but not by much. I have two 180W bricks, one powers channels 1 &2, the other powers channels 3 & 4. I have each quadrant of my layout powered by a channel, through a terminal block using a maximum of 9 wire feeds (I had problems when I used more feeds of a single terminal block). 

I cut the center power rail to isolate each track feed wire block. This prevents the DCS signal from running into the signal from another power feed block. As stated already, you want a maximum of about 12 track joint connections in each block, with the power feed in the middle of the block (about 6 track joints on each side).

My loop has 4 channels covering the loop, with about 1/4 of the loop fed by each channel. You run a pair of feed wires from the TIU to the terminal block, located let say, in each corner of your layout. From the terminal block, you run a pair of wires to each track block section. I use switches to separate blocks when practical. You can use a dremel type tool to cut the center rails to separate blocks.

Your lift out or duck under section, where you access the center of the layout, would be one of the terminal block division points. This minimizes the wiring that must "span" the entry walkway.

The ways described by others will also work. I used the method described above to minimize my total wire lengths.

This is extremely helpful Joe.  I wondered about the number of blocks I was planning for on each terminal block.  I did figure that the lift out section would need to be their own blocks.  You answered the question I had but didn't ask on the location of the terminal blocks. I didn't know if it was alright to run the two wires from the TIU output to any location before placing the terminal block and splitting feeds from that point to the tack blocks.  Wire is expensive so this helps!  I think I will copy and go with your plan.  Thanks again!   

You can check with other Forum members on if the wire size from the TIU to the terminal block is the same as from the terminal block to the track. I believe I use 14ga from TIU to terminal block and 16ga from terminal block to track. (however I am not sure, it could be 16ga & 18ga). See what others recommend.

Is the Arctic Melting?

Have DCS and Legacy. Best in my Opinion ----- DCS. Runs EVERYTHING with 99% of ALL FUNCTIONS via the WiFi Premier APP!

I Have life boats if needed! LOL

Echos..

 Problems vary from site to site. So you may want to try the loops simply, many folks don't have issue. Using blocks would head it off. 

It won't matter if you are running conventional trains with a remote. 

The comments center around trains with command- tmcc, dcc, dcs etc.

 2 loops -2 throttle outputs, 4 equal-ish blocks per loop insulating the center rail at each quarter.  Each drop, as centered in the block as possible.

Divide loops into as many blocks as needed to keep signal strength high.

It prevent signals looping and commands being reread at the onboard processors. 14g. Larger doesn't do much here; tui limits. A fuse and tvs is the bang for the buck after 14g. 12g wont hurt, esp. if its a long run of wire. 

TMCC Legacy uses the outside rails and household wiring ground wires so they can co-exist.

Barry's Book 👍 I basically echoed a discussion we had one night here.

We were very lucky he used to part of the forum. He was an MTH fan that dug in deep early and rode that line for all it was worth, pulling stuck people aboard as he went.   You can likely find everything repeated here, he shared what he knew openly too, but a copy in hand should be worth it to you long term.

Don't park engine single rollers over blocks nor 2 truckz.with roller wires tied, passenger cars with a roller on each end need a polyfuse...all are cases of bridging the blocks, something we are trying to avoid somewhat.

youtube- lionel, "using two or more trañsformers together on a layout"

another e.g. a tiny 0-27 pefect circle. Split once, one pin, a data loop would likely get stopped ok with a freight. Use five 6-axle cars with 2rollers per car,and the bridging length frequency could let a data loop slip by. More divisions help the odds it terminates before the signal can loop the layout.

A polyfuse can be used to quickly open and shut the connection between two  rollers bridging a block; at that moment, only one will work. A tiny very fast self resetting fuse.

Layout plan looks ok. If I picked a weak spot it is the S to the lower yard siding. If you use the talgo truck mount couplers vs body mount it's less of a worry.(but reaching too? OK? Hatch?)  It less of  big deal O than ho with an S though. 

Any turnout problems.will likely just be roller spacing and swapping another type can fix that.

The reason MTH recommends dividing your track into separate blocks for running DCS is not because of signal strength issues, but because of signal "confusion" with the engine. Let's say, for example, you have a 50' loop of track with four (4) power drops and no blocks. When a signal is sent to the engine it is receiving bits or packages of digital information from all four (4) drop locations and can get "overwhelmed" or "confused" as to what it is supposed to do. By dividing your track into blocks with one power drop per block, the engine will now only receive one set of signals from the block it is in and will not be "overwhelmed". 

Having said that, this issue does not always come into play - each layout appears to be different. You could try assembling your layout w/o blocks and see if there is a problem. If there isn't, you're all set - if there is , it would be relatively straightforward to divide the track into blocks at that point.

As to drop placement, I agree with Adriatic that the drop should be placed as close to the center of each block as is reasonably possible.

@SteveJM posted:

Is phasing two Lionel Powerhouse units pretty straight forward?  Especially if they are purchased within the past couple years?  

Lionel did a video on this by Mike when he was with them. Yes it is easy and yes you should do it regardless of the plug on the end.

For a late comer who missed the boat to the Arctic, it doesn't seem too hot here. 

Steve, it sounds like you are good to go.  I have DCS and got so carried away laying track I forgot I was going to isolate each block.    I haven't permanently wired everything except the drops are in and connected to the TIU via alligator clips.  So far no problem, but my layout is only an 11x11 twice around.  I'll go back and isolate if I have to.  I don't have two loops like you.

It looks like everyone has useful information and if I have issues I know where to come for help.  I’m really ready to start but need the oldest kid to move on out of the nest.  She’s engaged but with the virus out there no date set.  I really appreciate this forum and those of you that have paved the way for the rookies.  So many interesting posts here.

Steve, I know exactly where you are coming from.  When our younger daughter married and moved out in 2014, I gained enough space in her former room to set up a small 4x8 temporary layout.  It wasn't until 2016 that our older daughter married and moved out that I finally got a whole 11x11 room.  She only dated him for 9 years until they were 26.  I was ready to pay him to take her off our hands!    However, it has taken me almost 4 years to get the benchwork and mainline track in.  I hadn't planned on the medical problems I have had since 2016.  Who plans on that??!!!  

As for this Forum helping rookies; I bought my first HO train in 1968 or '69.  It wasn't until 2012 that I finally bought an OGR magazine, an O gauge train set, and joined this Forum; all in about a one week time.  There is a lot to learn moving from HO to O gauge 3-rail.  This Forum has been such a help I can't come up with a word good enough to describe it!!  

Steve,

Tell her to go ahead and set the date! The sooner, the better, as wedding venues will be booked for those that did not happen this year as well as those for next year. (Don't ask me how I know this!  )  Worst case scenario is she gets married with a very small, close personal friends and family ceremony, then has the full blown one later. There are a LOT of couples doing that this year! (And you will get your train room sooner! )

Chris

LVHR

I’ve been using much of my time building structures as I wait for the room.  That’s one of the things I love about this hobby.  There’s so many aspects that are enjoyable and always something new to learn and do.  I’m a band teacher and since my school shut down from the virus, modeling helped keep my sanity.  

@SteveJM posted:

I’ve been using much of my time building structures as I wait for the room.  That’s one of the things I love about this hobby.  There’s so many aspects that are enjoyable and always something new to learn and do.  I’m a band teacher and since my school shut down from the virus, modeling helped keep my sanity.  

I have seen many members on this forum lose their insanity chasing electrical problems on their layout.  So prepare to lose your insanity.

@Loose-Caboose posted:

I have seen many members on this forum lose their insanity chasing electrical problems on their layout.  So prepare to lose your insanity.

Are you suggesting most here are insane? 🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪

Jim, After working in electronics for 43 years, at home I follow the KISS principle.  Keep it simple.  Simple wiring for a simple modeler.  

@Loose-Caboose posted:

I have seen many members on this forum lose their insanity chasing electrical problems on their layout.  So prepare to lose your insanity.

What a way to go! 🤣

@Mark Boyce posted:

Jim, After working in electronics for 43 years, at home I follow the KISS principle.  Keep it simple.  Simple wiring for a simple modeler.  

I remember being a kid and connecting two wires from the transformer to the track and moving the throttle to make a Locomotive move.  Compare that to today.  Personally I love the technology used today.  But you do have to admit that it is a little more complex, but the features you get are out of this world.  When I bring people down to my layout and start going through the startup with all the sounds their eye get as big as saucers.  They look at my Prewar Z and ZW and they want to know why it is buried to the point that it is barely visible and they want to know why I am not moving the throttles.  It just brings a smile to my face how antiquated they remember how they ran their childhood trains.

It took until 2012 but I succumbed to command control too.  The problem is the wires!  On four wire data circuits to our telecom customers we used to say, How can just 4 wires become so confusing?  It was because of all the junction points between here and there.  The trouble’s leaving here okay!