New Layout - Buss wire questions

14 ga is perfect for the buss. I used 14 ga feeders  every 10' as well, with suitcase connectors to splice in the drops, no problems.

Any yards or sidings are isolated from the main, and have their own hot wire on a toggle so unused trains can safely be parked there with the power off.

My modest 10'x16' is 18 years old, never had a voltage drop issue.

Call me stupid here but what is a "suitcase connector?" I am old-fashioned solder guy....but it never fails!

Hi Tom,  nice looking layout plan.  You have a lot of questions,  perhaps make them bullet points with numbers to make it easier to respond. 

Regarding the common buss wires,  "14 awg stranded THHN bare wire"  I wonder what you mean by "bare".  I think the 14awg stranded makes sense for the buss.  The best thing you can do is have everything color coded.     I found the T Tap Wire connectors to be really useful to  attaching power drops to the buss wires and other common connections. 

Amazon.com: TICONN 240Pcs T Tap Wire Connectors, T Wire Quick Splice Connector, T Connectors for Wiring with Storage Case (240Pcs) : Industrial & Scientific

Get one line up and running and add the second one when you get the first one set up.

@endless tracks posted:

Call me stupid here but what is a "suitcase connector?" I am old-fashioned solder guy....but it never fails!

Also known by a brandname of "Scotchlock". You slide it over the wire from the side, then also insert the feeder dropped down wire into the other hole, then with pliers, smash the blase into the slot thus the slots pierce the insulation and make contact to the wire strands.They are color coded for the wire sizes they fit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFdVkSaHRpU

Vernon, thanks! Yup, I have used them very sporadically on things that don't move or get wet (like trailers in road salt=bad idea). Just hadn't heard the term. I live where we eat subs but my friend orders a hoagie where he lives and gets the same thing...LOL

DL Brunette, good observation! THHN is an isolation type, thus bare wire cannot be THHN. I'm guessing he means "stripped" THHN, but a suitcase connector negates the need for stripping....so???

Thanks RickO,DL, Vernon.  I havent posted in over a yr. I had trouble just getting the attachment to show up.  I'll work on the bullit point thing.  By "bare" i simply mean "not tinned".  I'm finding that once you get below 14awg, pretty much everythig is tinned. Haven't found anything not tinned in the 20-22ga that's in a spool. I'll prob use the tinned. It's more resistant to corrosion or so they say.  Once i'm sure about what ga wire i'm gonna use for buss for diff things, then i'll know what ga i'll be using for drops.  Then I can start designating the colors i'll be using for diff wires.     

I'm nervous about suitcase connectors guys. I'm not sure why. Prob just not used to them and afraid of cutting thru a wire. That's why i was wondering about using the barrier strips instead, but am concerned about voltage drop.

Tom 

I bought (last christmas - so i think i'm remembering it right) two 500ft spools (black and red) of THHN stranded 14 awg wire (non tinned) from Lowes.  I assumed it would be ok for my main buss.

Tom

TomSuperO,

I never use suitcase connectors on any "must work or else" applications, e.g ignition, trailer brakes  and the like.  And yes, I have had them cut strands in the main wire while adding the branch wire, although that may have been something I did....

@endless tracks posted:

TomSuperO,

I never use suitcase connectors on any "must work or else" applications, e.g ignition, trailer brakes  and the like.  And yes, I have had them cut strands in the main wire while adding the branch wire, although that may have been something I did....

Yes, thats why i'm nervous about using them. Scared to death of cutting thru a wire. It's an old guy thing. Grab the worng connector, forget what ga wire i'm working with and cut thru the buss.  Maybe i'll get some and practice just to get comfortable.  I'd rather use barrier strips if i can.

Tom

There are also these connectors. The Quick Lever Wire Terminal/Connectors have good electrical rating specs and they are all over my layout. Under every switch and accessory, these are connecting a wire tail to power/control and a lot of my neutral bussing is through these.

@woodsyT posted:

There are also these connectors. The Quick Lever Wire Terminal/Connectors have good electrical rating specs and they are all over my layout. Under every switch and accessory, these are connecting a wire tail to power/control and a lot of my neutral bussing is through these.

woodsyT,  I have some wago's.  I have a box of the 2's and a box of the 3's. I have to get some 5's. They are pricey but nice.

Yes, that's excactly what i've been asking.  can i use barrier strips ( or these) for my buss runs & drops. I know how to use them. My question is will i get a lot of voltage drop by using them compared to a suitcase connector.  In the case of a suitcase connector, the main buss wire is not cut completely - only tapped into.  In the case of a barrier strip or these wago's, the main buss end goes in one side and comes out the other.  So my main buss will be "chopped up" and not continuous.  Does that create more voltage drop given the long runs my buss will have to make - 50'-60' runs. (see attached pic above).  That's my question. 

Tom

I am currently planning on using 14awg wire for my main line common and for ea main line hot feed.  If by using barrier strips or wagos on my long (60 ft') main buss runs i get a lot of voltage drop then i may have to reconsider and move up to 12 awg wire to compensate for the voltage drop and length of the run.  Does any of this make any sense or am i looking at a non issue.  I'm not electrically smart enough to know the answer but someone on here is.

Tom

@TomSuperO posted:

...  So my main buss will be "chopped up" and not continuous.  Does that create more voltage drop given the long runs my buss will have to make - 50'-60' runs. (see attached pic above).  That's my question. ...

Some of my power supply and neutral bussing is 'chopped up'. I have used 12ga wire to serve as the 'buss' through whatever connection/connector I pass through - so, if you picture a tree where the 'roots' are the bonded U terminals of my transformers and the 'trunk' of the tree is 12ga wire, the 'branches' of the tree are all the lights, accessories, track connections, etc. those wires are 14, 16, 18 gauges.  I make sure that a full 12ga passes through every section of terminal block or lever connector or din terminal block. I am unable to measure voltage loss/drop across my layout. I have a control panel near the middle of the table and the longest wire runs are under 20 feet. at 50 feet voltage drop should be below 2% with 12gauge wire. With 14 gauge wire @50' you could get almost 7% drop - 18 volts becomes 16.75

Even with DCS/TMCC, wiring the mainline as blocks controlled by toggle switches is useful, especially for fault-finding.  My mainline tracks are divided into four blocks, fed from toggle switches on a central control panel via #14 AWG THNN stranded wires.  The switches are normally left on continuously, until something goes wrong.

I used good old barrier blocks for connections.  If I had to do it over, I would likely use the WAGO blocks.  No insulation-displacement connectors allowed.

Each toggle switch is connected to a #14 AWG THNN stranded feeder which goes to a barrier block located in the middle of the track block being powered.  Secondary #14 feeders go from there to barrier blocks on each other table segment within the block, where short #16 AWG (sometimes #18 AWG) drops connect to the tracks above.  Each block feeder has a paired common wire from the power distribution bus bars, with common following the same path routing to track.  Commons are connected to the outermost rails, but not the innermost.  At each "drop" barrier block, a 0.1µF 50V ceramic capacitor connects the two outer rails together, for TMCC/Legacy continuity.  The innermost rail is insulated in each block and not connected to common so that it can be used for signal control (block detection) purposes.  I've had no problems with engine or car lighting reliability with this arrangement, nor any TMCC/Legacy signal issues.

@TomSuperO posted:

Hi Guys. Well hopefully during the holidays work will resume on the Ohio & WV.  It's been a yr off.  I'll be working on setting grades on the right peninsula, and hopefully laying some track.  In preparation for wiring, I have some buss questions. Some background:    TMCC Legacy only.  Track - SuperO.  Switches - Ross.  Have PW KW Xformer that may be used for ? accessories , etc.    2 Main lines - ea w a 180W PH. Each yard will be a separate block w it's own power supply/ xformer (TBD).   Was planning on using 14 awg stranded THHN bare wire for: common buss (1 common buss for both main lines),  and 14 awg stranded THHN bare wire for hot.  Each main line will have it's own hot wire feed from it's own power supply.   18 awg for all the common and hot drops.  Attached pic shows the 2 main lines, the dimensions of the layout,  and location of the yards.

All power thru bricks.  Cab2 control.  Running all freight.  1 train per ea main.   2 engine lashup w helper in middle. 15 to 30 car consists.  1 Switcher Engine per yard.

I was planning on locating all the 180 bricks near the bottom rt of the left peninsula.

1)  Do you think the 14awg buss is sufficient for all my power feeds for the mains and the mains' common and is the 18 awg ok for the drops.

2)  Does the common have to make a complete loop and return to the source power supply.

3)  Barrier strips vs suitcase connectors.  Can i use barrier strips in the main buss hot run.   ie  hot in to a barrier strip, drop, drop, drop, hot out to next barrier strip, etc, etc.  Is this method ok or will it cause too much V drop.    OR should i use suitcase connectors for each drop off the main buss. I'm not comfortable with suitcase connectors.

4)  I am planning on installing ground plane wiring around the layout due to close prox of tracks and over under tracks to prevent signal interference.  Is 18ga stranded tinned ok for that?

I am completely lost electrically and would appreciate any help that i can get.

Thanks Guys.

Tom

14 is perfect, I prefer 14 ga speaker wire this way one conductor is copper color and one silver.

@TomSuperO posted:

Yes, thats why i'm nervous about using them. Scared to death of cutting thru a wire. It's an old guy thing. Grab the worng connector, forget what ga wire i'm working with and cut thru the buss.  Maybe i'll get some and practice just to get comfortable.  I'd rather use barrier strips if i can.

Tom

It took me a while to get used to them, they are size specfic, so that minimizes the chance of cutting thru a wire.  I also love those lever wire connectors.  I use a hot glue gun to attach them to the table bottom.  I used to soder everything, but this has made things very easy.  below is a close up of the three sizes,  yellow is 12AGW,  Blue is 14 to 16,  Red is 18 to 22. 

Again, these ate the T-Tap Wire Connectors.

@woodsyT posted:

Some of my power supply and neutral bussing is 'chopped up'. I have used 12ga wire to serve as the 'buss' through whatever connection/connector I pass through - so, if you picture a tree where the 'roots' are the bonded U terminals of my transformers and the 'trunk' of the tree is 12ga wire, the 'branches' of the tree are all the lights, accessories, track connections, etc. those wires are 14, 16, 18 gauges.  I make sure that a full 12ga passes through every section of terminal block or lever connector or din terminal block. I am unable to measure voltage loss/drop across my layout. I have a control panel near the middle of the table and the longest wire runs are under 20 feet. at 50 feet voltage drop should be below 2% with 12gauge wire. With 14 gauge wire @50' you could get almost 7% drop - 18 volts becomes 16.75

WoodsyT.  Thank You. That's what i'm looking for.  7% drop huh. Do you think that's ok or should i be looking at moving up to 12 awg. I think 7% wouldn't be much of a concern for the blocks for the yards. Not a tremendous power draw there so 7% ok.   For the main line buss it should still be ok using 14awg. I'll only be running 1 train on ea main line. I could go 12awg on the 2 main line busses abd 14 awg on all the other power districts / blocks which would be mostly be yards.  Think i'll run the 14 awg first on the mains and try to measure what i get at the end of the run.  I'll prob use a combination of wago's and barrier strips.      Thank You

@KarlDL posted:

Even with DCS/TMCC, wiring the mainline as blocks controlled by toggle switches is useful, especially for fault-finding.  My mainline tracks are divided into four blocks, fed from toggle switches on a central control panel via #14 AWG THNN stranded wires.  The switches are normally left on continuously, until something goes wrong.

I used good old barrier blocks for connections.  If I had to do it over, I would likely use the WAGO blocks.  No insulation-displacement connectors allowed.

Each toggle switch is connected to a #14 AWG THNN stranded feeder which goes to a barrier block located in the middle of the track block being powered.  Secondary #14 feeders go from there to barrier blocks on each other table segment within the block, where short #16 AWG (sometimes #18 AWG) drops connect to the tracks above.  Each block feeder has a paired common wire from the power distribution bus bars, with common following the same path routing to track.  Commons are connected to the outermost rails, but not the innermost.  At each "drop" barrier block, a 0.1µF 50V ceramic capacitor connects the two outer rails together, for TMCC/Legacy continuity.  The innermost rail is insulated in each block and not connected to common so that it can be used for signal control (block detection) purposes.  I've had no problems with engine or car lighting reliability with this arrangement, nor any TMCC/Legacy signal issues.

KarlDL,   Thank you for the reply. I'm going to set all my yards up on separate blocks. Each block will be turned on / off w a toggle switch.  I'll use 14awg stranded for the main buss feed to each block - from a dedicated xformer or brick for that yard / block.   I'm aware of the capacitor use, but for now i don't think i'll be needing it.  SuperO track outer rails are connected under the ties with a metal plate that electrically connects the 2 outside rails together. I'm cautiously optimistic.  What toggle switch did you use  SPST, SPDT and what amp rating.  Where did you get those toggles from.  I might look for a red / green LED toggle for block power.    I'm thinking about a green / yellow LED toggle for my future control panel for turnout position indication.      Lionel has me jumpy about ground planes hence the concern for signal interference cause i have over unders.  Thank You for your help.     

ThatGuy,  Thanks for the reply.  I bought last yr a lot of 14awg THNN stranded for use as my buss.  The silver / copper would be good. I'll keep that in mind if i add any yards.

DL, Thank you.   Yeah, I like the wago's too. little pricey - anymore what isn't.  That's a great idea to glue them on. I'm gonna try that.  I still may buy some T-tap connectors. Where did you get them from. 

Gentlemen, Thank youns so much.  I feel a lot better about how i'm going to go about this now. Really appreciate your feedback.  I have a construction supervisor who expects a high standard from me. He's 7.   

Tom

Amazon.com: TICONN 240Pcs T Tap Wire Connectors, T Wire Quick Splice Connector, T Connectors for Wiring with Storage Case (240Pcs) : Industrial & Scientific

These are the T-Tap Wire Connectors from Amazon.   

@DL Brunette posted:

Amazon.com: TICONN 240Pcs T Tap Wire Connectors, T Wire Quick Splice Connector, T Connectors for Wiring with Storage Case (240Pcs) : Industrial & Scientific

These are the T-Tap Wire Connectors from Amazon.   

Thanks DL,  I'll check em out.

I'm no expert, but I've been building my layout since October 2021, so just a little over 2 years.  Your layout appears to be two mainlines at about 12x11 size.   My layout is 17x12 with 2 mainlines.  But then also 6 extra parking sidings, making it more like 17x15.   Electrically, everything works great and has good current with no weak or dead spots.  I have not tested it on a meter though, but the big vision line engines run fine.    

The whole thing is set up with 14 ga stranded solid copper wire from Lowes as the bus.   Track is Gargraves, so I used their pre soldered track pins with the 6" pigtails of 16 or 18 ga traded copper.  You'd have to look on their website to confirm if it's 16 or 18ga.   I connect it all using the lever lock connectors like you see above that are grey with the orange levers.   I bought them off Amazon per Gunrunner John's suggestion a couple years back.  He knows his stuff.  It's worked great for 2 years.   I must have 40 of them under there!  I used double sided tape to attach them to the underside of the tables.  

My toggles for all the sidings a SPST basic off/on toggles also from Lowes.  All the switch motors on my turnouts (around 12 I think) all work off 20ga solid copper (not stranded).   They work well also and are some long runs.   I cannot offer you any more than this, and it all works well.   Good luck, Hope it helps you out.   FYI:  I also have 2 electrical fire extinguishers up there, but have not needed them!    lol.

I’ve spent most of 2023 doing a complete rebuild of my layout, including a complete rewiring of it. Wiring is my least favorite phase of building a layout. I researched the forum extensively and found lots of advice from members who I view as experts on the subject. From that research, I chose color-coded 14AWG solid wire for my bus wire. I have Atlas track and use their terminal joiners as drops. They tap perfectly to the 14 AWG bus wire with Scotchlock 905 suitcase connectors. I bought a Klein crimping tool on Amazon that is purpose built for Scotchlock connectors. It’s nice and I would recommend it, but I also did the first twenty or so with a pair of slip joint pliers without issue. I use Wago connectors of various sizes and arrangements for any splices of the bus wires or extensions to the tap wires.

The use of suitcase and Wago connectors made the project much more enjoyable for me. I realize some members do not like suitcase connectors for other applications, but I found them very useful and reliable for the low voltage application that is my layout.

@42trainman posted:

I'm no expert, but I've been building my layout since October 2021, so just a little over 2 years.  Your layout appears to be two mainlines at about 12x11 size.   My layout is 17x12 with 2 mainlines.  But then also 6 extra parking sidings, making it more like 17x15.   Electrically, everything works great and has good current with no weak or dead spots.  I have not tested it on a meter though, but the big vision line engines run fine.    

The whole thing is set up with 14 ga stranded solid copper wire from Lowes as the bus.   Track is Gargraves, so I used their pre soldered track pins with the 6" pigtails of 16 or 18 ga traded copper.  You'd have to look on their website to confirm if it's 16 or 18ga.   I connect it all using the lever lock connectors like you see above that are grey with the orange levers.   I bought them off Amazon per Gunrunner John's suggestion a couple years back.  He knows his stuff.  It's worked great for 2 years.   I must have 40 of them under there!  I used double sided tape to attach them to the underside of the tables.  

My toggles for all the sidings a SPST basic off/on toggles also from Lowes.  All the switch motors on my turnouts (around 12 I think) all work off 20ga solid copper (not stranded).   They work well also and are some long runs.   I cannot offer you any more than this, and it all works well.   Good luck, Hope it helps you out.   FYI:  I also have 2 electrical fire extinguishers up there, but have not needed them!    lol.

42trainman, thanks for the reply.  The 14 ga that i bought last year stranded non-tinned. Got it from Lowes.  From all the responses i've received, i'm getting comfortable with 14awg for my buss and prob 18 awg for the drops.  I'll prob go with like 22 for switches, signals, etc.   Our layouts sound about the same size, so that's also encouraging that you haven't had any issues.  Yes, JGJ is a good source.  Yeah, i'm thinking SPST as well but looking around for them w red / gr LED's.  Thanks for your help. Appreciate it.

I also have 2 fire extinguishers - in my camper.  Not needing them is a wonderful thing.  Gotta pick up a couple more for the train room.

Tom

@Rider Sandman posted:

I’ve spent most of 2023 doing a complete rebuild of my layout, including a complete rewiring of it. Wiring is my least favorite phase of building a layout. I researched the forum extensively and found lots of advice from members who I view as experts on the subject. From that research, I chose color-coded 14AWG solid wire for my bus wire. I have Atlas track and use their terminal joiners as drops. They tap perfectly to the 14 AWG bus wire with Scotchlock 905 suitcase connectors. I bought a Klein crimping tool on Amazon that is purpose built for Scotchlock connectors. It’s nice and I would recommend it, but I also did the first twenty or so with a pair of slip joint pliers without issue. I use Wago connectors of various sizes and arrangements for any splices of the bus wires or extensions to the tap wires.

The use of suitcase and Wago connectors made the project much more enjoyable for me. I realize some members do not like suitcase connectors for other applications, but I found them very useful and reliable for the low voltage application that is my layout.

Rider, I'm looking around for the 14 awg in diff colors.  I'm thinking that if i get some of the suitcase connectors, I would feel more comfortable with the scotchlocks.  I'm guessing they would be a bit better quality.  I like the crimping tool suggestion.  Kinda standardizes the crimps.  I have 2's and 3's in the wago. i want to pick up some 5's.    Thank you for the input.  Hopefully i'll be able to post some updated benchwork photos around new years.

Tom

I used SPST toggle switches from DigiKey, particulars here:

I didn't see any need for switch illumination.  These have proven to be solid, reliable switches in their block-control use.

Glad to see another enthusiast of Super-O.  That's not my thing, being of a 3RS orientation, but a fellow Club member is into it and doing so preserves a unique, obscure period of the long life of Lionel products.