New member needs help

There both great, IMO Lionel had an alterior motive(I won't get into) offering the s3 at such a low price its a steal.In either case Lionel usually produces enough units so that either locomotive should still be available for, at the very least, several months after it hits the shelves,i.e. there are still plenty of VL hudsons available even at good prices after many thought if they did not prorder they would be S.O.L. I often wait for members to post pics and video of a particular loco I'm interested in so I can see and hear it to make my final decision.

Melissa: If you want opinions, you came to the right place! In "normal" times (whatever they may be....) the Milwaukee S-3 would probably also been nearer to the price of the Santa Fe Northern. For whatever reason, Big "L" chose to issue the S-3 at a GREAT price compared to other similar sized locos-and people jumped on that bandwagon! It is also a desireable locomotive in that the prototype is still running under steam (as is the 3751).
Feature for feature, both locomotives appear to be similar, although the S-3 does have the new drawbar setup to close the tender/locomotive gap on straights which the Santa Fe does not in this re-issue.
I would be happy with either model, but I am awaiting receipt of my S-3; I like its looks and sentimentally, my grandmother worked in the Alco business office back in the day. Both models are likely being made in China, so construction techniques/assembly/quality should be similar.
The S-3 MAY be harder to find if it isn't re-issued sometime in the future; this is a re-issue for the 3751 which SHOULD be easier to find now as some people will upgrade from the earlier version to the newer. As far as ordering, you better order now for the new Santa Fe; for the S-3, I think that will be harder to find now since it is due in stores in the next week or so. If you want an S-3 start looking in the morning!
Regards,
Larry D. Good hunting and Merry Christmas!

Just as larry said if your wanting the s3 start looking in the morning. I know my dealer ordered 45 of them and there all spoken for. As far as the northern goes it came out alittle later in the year at christmas and it was a surprise and many people already put their money on the s3 so some wont be getting the northern as they probably would have purchased if the s3 wasnt being delivered or so popular. I ordered both but if I had a choice between the 2 I would get the s3 not because its cheaper but because I LIKE it and thats what you should do figure out which one you like and go for it. goodluck

Melissa:

If your heart is with the Northern, I would recommend that you go with your gut instinct. They are both excellent choices, but I really prefer the looks of the Northern and the tender. Don't worry so much about popularity or future availability issues.

Good luck with your choice and let me be the first to wish you and your husband a very Merry Christmas.

quote:

If your heart is with the Northern, I would recommend that you go with your gut instinct. They are both excellent choices, but I really prefer the looks of the Northern and the tender.

Since BOTH models she enquired about are NORTHERNS, which one are you actually recommending?

The 261 is a bargain at the price. I think all us Milwaukee Road fans were surprised when Lionel came out with this engine at an MSRP under $1000.00. I won't pretend to be objective; I'm a Milwaukee fan and this engine was a must-have, even though I have a Weaver brass S-3. I do genuinely prefer its appearance to the Santa Fe; to me it has cleaner lines and better proportions, and I prefer the rounded Challenger-type tender to the outsize one on the Santa Fe engine. The new drawbar setup is also an asset; it will improve the appearance of the engine under way.

It appears that the S-3 will be in relatively short supply, especially road number 261. Some dealers that ordered extras for stock have taken reservations on those as well. It will most likely be easier to find numbers 265 and 267. I'm hoping to see my 261 in the next couple of weeks.

As others have said, ultimately you should buy what you like, what will make you glad you bought it. They are both great engines; if I had unlimited money and storage space I'd probably get the Santa Fe as well.

I know techanically there northerns from the wheel arrangement but why does up call 844 by its wheel arrangement fef and not northern. I heard it was because they didn't want people associating their engines (u.p) with Santa fe which called them northerns. Is this true? Also for my couriosity why do people call the milwaukee rd s3 s4 etc and not northern? Also they do that to the greenbrier too but calling it such and not northern. My question is did Santa fe call their 4-8-4 engines northern cause it was the class they were in or did Santa fe choose that name for their engines and it just carried over to other engines of that same wheel arrangement? Thanks

Sorry Hot Water, I should have added the Sante Fe.

Let's us know which engine you decide on

This spring, I had the opportunity to pick up an engine that I had been trying to save for for almost 3 years... The Lionel Legacy Pere Marquette 1225. For me, this price range is out of reach unless something extraordinary happens and that sounds kind of like what you are going through. So here is my perspective...

I would go with the engine that "means the most" to you... however you define that. You may have other opportunities down the road to get another engine in this price range but you never know.

Good Luck!

quote:

Originally posted by LORDtryzAlot:
I know techanically there northerns from the wheel arrangement but why does up call 844 by its wheel arrangement fef and not northern. I heard it was because they didn't want people associating their engines (u.p) with Santa fe which called them northerns. Is this true? Also for my couriosity why do people call the milwaukee rd s3 s4 etc and not northern? Also they do that to the greenbrier too but calling it such and not northern. My question is did Santa fe call their 4-8-4 engines northern cause it was the class they were in or did Santa fe choose that name for their engines and it just carried over to other engines of that same wheel arrangement? Thanks

You should pick up the Classic Trains special 4-8-4 issue. It covers all the Northerns used in the US, Canada and Mexico.

Northerns went by many names: Greenbriar, Niagra, Dixie, Governor and a few others I can't remember offhand.

Santa Fe usually referered to their locomotives by class. The 3751 class, 3765 class, 3776 class and 2900 class are all Northerns. Sometimes a class could consist of one locomotive.

Rusty

Thanks rusty I wasn't sure and it gets confusing trying to keep track of what railroads did or said. Im going to find that issue in my train room now I have a subscription so I'm sure I received it. Thanks

MelissaPa:

The price difference is large enough, that if you go with the S-3, you may be able to buy that engine and the Legacy Control System for the price of the Santa Fe. If you do not yet have the Legacy System, it is a must to unlock the capabilities of either engine.

I sorely wish I had the money for an S-3. I don't have a single MR item in my collection, but my gut tells me this engine will be one for the books!

quote:

Originally posted by LORDtryzAlot:
Thanks rusty I wasn't sure and it gets confusing trying to keep track of what railroads did or said. Im going to find that issue in my train room now I have a subscription so I'm sure I received it. Thanks

Albert,

Remember not to confuse what the individual railroad "Marketing/Mechanical" departments named there various steam locomotives. The men "on the job", i.e Engineers, Fireman, Conductors, Brakemen, Roundhouse Foremen, etc., usually ALWAYS referred to steam locomotive classes by their cab number series. Such as; the Southern Pacific "Daylights" where simply "the Fourty Four Hundreds", the Union Pacific various FEF (which stands for Four Eight Four by the way)classes of 4-8-4s where "the Eight Hundreds", while the 4-8-8-4s were the "Four Thousands" (NOT Big Boys). The list is endless!

Remember not to confuse what the individual railroad "Marketing/Mechanical" departments named there various steam locomotives. The men "on the job", i.e Engineers, Fireman, Conductors, Brakemen, Roundhouse Foremen, etc., usually ALWAYS referred to steam locomotive classes by their cab number series. Such as; the Southern Pacific "Daylights" where simply "the Fourty Four Hundreds", the Union Pacific various FEF (which stands for Four Eight Four by the way)classes of 4-8-4s where "the Eight Hundreds", while the 4-8-8-4s were the "Four Thousands" (NOT Big Boys). The list is endless!

Thanks hotwater,
Sounds simple enough as long as you know what their referring too. Thx

Hey guys thanks so much for all of your input!! I’m still trying to decide but my “gut” definitely leans toward the Santa Fe. I love the sound of the whistle on the old TMCC version (saw it on Youtube) and really like the steam whistle effect. But Bill you have a great point about possibly being able to get the Legacy control system also if I go with the S-3. I don’t have it and I definitely want to get it! I will be sure to let you know what I end up deciding on! Now to find a dealer. Unfortunately there are no local hobby shops in town that carry o gauge trains. How do you feel about buying over the internet/mail order? I bought my first loco (Williams B&O Cincinnatian) that way from a dealer in Pa and had a good experience but suspect that going through a local dealer would provide better or should I say more convenient service?

Melissa

A dealer that is also a forum member is Dave at Mercer Junction (Mercer, PA). There are bunches of others. Give him a shout though and see what he can do for you.

Mellisa, I'm sure most if not all train operators/collectors would agree with me by saying buy what you like and if you buy for any other reason then that you won't be happy with your purchase. You said it yourself in the first post that you may never get another opportunity to buy a legacy engine like this and it sounds like you really want the Santa fe northern so go for it and as far as the legacy system goes you can always save for it and then when it does arrive you'll enjoy the engine in a different way. Ask for the legacy controller for your birthday/anniversary etc.

Are you guys saying that the newest Lionel AT&SF 4-8-4, road number 3751 is NOT Legacy? I saw both of Lionel's newest 4-8-4s (MIL #261 AND AT&SF #3751) at last month's Trainfest and BOTH samples, there in the Lionel booth, where Legacy.

I didn't say they weren't legacy I just mentioned that she could get the atsf and save for the legacy controller which she doesn't have yet and then when she receives the legacy controller she can enjoy the engine in a new way with the extra features you don't get without legacy.

Thanks guys, you've all been so helpful. I'm going with the Santa Fe! Now to get to work on that Christmas layout!!!

Hope you all have a very Merry Christmas.
Melissa

quote:

Thanks guys, you've all been so helpful. I'm going with the Santa Fe! Now to get to work on that Christmas layout!!!

Congrats and remember we want pics of it and a video if posibble. Would like to see the layout too. Have fun with the engine your getting.

Just wanted to let you guys know I received my Lionel Santa Fe Northern 3751 last week! Today I finally powered her up and had a blast running her forwards and backwards a couple of feet on my Christmas layout. My goal next year is to add an oval of track with 054 curves for her.

Thanks for the suggestion that I contact Dave at Mercer Junction Train Shoppe. What a great guy. I contacted him and got a quick reply that he thought he could get me this engine which he did. His service is exceptional; I will definitely order from him again!

Thanks again for your help!
Melissa

Great pictures, Melissa! Thanks for sharing. Do you have space to put down a loop of track somewhere so you don't have to wait until next Christmas? That's what I am doing so I can run my Legacy engine until my layout gets updated. Also, if you can afford the space, your trains will look better on O-72. Thanks again for sharing the pics!

Hi Melissa, welcome aboard. You have a beautiful engine and I wish you many years of fun with it.

Boy, I hope your husband knows how lucky he is.

Mario is right,

Your husband is very lucky I mean a wife who has trains?????

Thats like having a wife with with her own bass boat

David

Welcome to the asylum.

HOPPY

quote:

Thats like having a wife with with her own bass boat

Lol no bass boat but I DO have my own fishing pole!

My husband isn't really interested in the trains but he does indulge me and let me keep up my Christmas layout as long as I want. Last year it stayed up the whole year. This year might be the same since I still haven't even gotten it all together due to a family member's health crisis over the holidays.

Eric I agree the 072 curves would be best and I would like to do that but not sure I have the space. I'm pretty sure that I can squeeze O60s in though. I'll have to wait on running her with Legacy as I don't have it yet. Something to look forward to!
Melissa

Welcome. Thanks for the pix. Very nice.

Melissa,

Sorry to hear about your family member. I hope things are better.

My floor loop is O-72 FasTrack with a couple of 30" straights on each side to make the whole thing about 7x11. Though I get to leave mine up a lot, it sets up and breaks down fast and is a lot easier on my hands than tubular. You can also do a lot with carpet layouts if you know you're going to be putting away the track when you are done running. I've gotten away with setups I'd NEVER be able to do otherwise.

I completely understand about waiting for Legacy. I hope you are able to get a set soon.

quote:

Originally posted by MelissaPa:

quote:

Thats like having a wife with with her own bass boat

Lol no bass boat but I DO have my own fishing pole!

My husband isn't really interested in the trains but he does indulge me and let me keep up my Christmas layout as long as I want. Last year it stayed up the whole year. This year might be the same since I still haven't even gotten it all together due to a family member's health crisis over the holidays.

Eric I agree the 072 curves would be best and I would like to do that but not sure I have the space. I'm pretty sure that I can squeeze O60s in though. I'll have to wait on running her with Legacy as I don't have it yet. Something to look forward to!
Melissa

Milissa,
You've got a very nice engine and hope you enjoy it. Legacy sounds are great but when you get the legacy base and handheld it's gonna be OMG!!!!!!!

I had to squeeze to get 0-72 curves on my layout but believe me you'll wish a hundred times you did if you don't have them. Even if you have a small around the room layout with a tilt up section you can fit 0-72's in ya just gotta be a little creative . Just tell your old man it could be worse you could like David Yurman or Nana Ping

Welcome to the testosterone turnpike , and thanks a little estrogen around here is a good thing

David

I would like to second what Dave said above. Even though O-72 is not needed in order to have a great layout it's nice to be able to run the larger scale engines if you wish.

I run mostly traditional size Lionel and Rail King engines, along with a growing list of Williams by Bachmann. The scale items I have stay mostly on the shelf but the traditioanl items look so much cooler coming around the bend. The combination of RK on O-72 turns really brings out the most of my 9 X 23 foot platform.

I would give Dave's advice some consideration if at all possible. There is not that big of a jump in real estate when we move from O-54 to O-72.

Good luck and have fun