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So, currently, I have a Model AC1803000, 77 watt transformer powering my rather substantial (larger than 4x8) layout, an artifact of the first starter set I ever bought. Needless to say, it is somewhat overworked, and I frequently have trouble with dead spots, which make operation erratic with even the best locos I have. I am thinking about purchasing a new transformer to power the layout, with the hope that this will help with this issue, and generally improve the operation of the layout overall. I was wondering what suggestions the forum has for what transformer I ought to buy? I am thinking something in the CW-80\midsized range, as I don't know if I have space for a ZW (Though I suppose I could rebuild the control panel a bit if I needed to. I have heard that reconditioned ZWs are fairly bullet proof. ). I also wonder if I shouldn't get a transformer with horizontal throttle versus a vertical one, given I'm experienced using with the later but not the former.

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Redshirt214 posted:

So, currently, I have a Model AC1803000, 77 watt transformer powering my rather substantial (larger than 4x8) layout

77 watts is the input rating, the output is only 40 watts.

A CW will give you 5 amps, double what you have now, including the programmable accessory output, and would be a good choice.

A different/new/larger transformer will not help with power dropouts, though. This is a mechanical issue that should be addressed separately.

RedShirt214,

   These gentlemen are giving you great advise, Rob is right on the money, you are actually powering with about 40-44 Watts with your current Transformer.  Ron is definitely asking you the needed question to determine what Transformer you could purchase.  RJR is probably chuckling a might we have been down the path so many times.  Because of the way the newer Transformers are engineered and the different running options they provide, for DCS & Legacy it helps to understand more about your layout.  However I always advise that when looking for a new Transformer always purchase a Transformer that delivers more power than you actually need right now, sooner or later you will want to enlarge your layout.  If you like the older KW & ZW Transformers I highly recommend them, especially for the cost factor.  If you are running DCS all you will need is the Resettable 7-10 Amps Breaker bank, to put between your older ZW or KW Transformer and the TIU, the TIU has a built in TVS to safe guard your newer engines on the tracks.  I use these resettable breakers between all my Transformers, old or new, and  my TIU's.  Here is my recommendation if you are just running conventional engines, invest in a refurbished ZW, and rework your track with proper power drops.  If you are planning on running DCS in the future, save your money and purchase a Z-4000 and the side receiver.   In this manner you open up all kinds of options for running both Conventional & P2/P3 engines.   Always over power your layout  for best running results.

PCRR/Dave

Last edited by Pine Creek Railroad

Chuckle Chuckle

Seriously though, I don't disagree with your advice, Dave, to get a larger-than-now-needed transformer.  One problem with a portion of your advice is that the Z4000 side receiver, as you call it, is now virtually unavailable.

About 50 years ago Lionel published an excellent paperback, "Model Railroading," a 50-cent Bantam book, in which they said transformers should not be run continuously at more than 70 or 75% (I forget which) of their rating.  I do remember that in the earlry 50's I was running a 224 and a 736 loco, plus 4 022 switches, plus a #97 coal elevator, on a 100-watt Type R.

Redshirt, I seriously recommend you upgrade your wiring to eliminate dead spots, before going further. 

I think the basses have been pretty well covered here, but will triple down on making sure you have enough power feeders to avoid drop-outs around your track.  Also make sure each piece of track is making a good connection to the next.  I didn't see a mention of what type of track you are using, and the process of insuring a solid connection between sections varies a little between types.  For the traditional tubular "O" or "O27" track you sometimes get a little rust on the pins or inside the "tube", the inside of the rail where the pins plug into.  This is fixes easily enough with a tiny piece of fine grit sand paper rolled up to fit, a small round file, or if you can find a metal-bristle pipe cleaner, they work pretty well.  The ends of the track can also be loose, and there are folks that sell special pliers to tighten the ends of the track... I've always used a pair of needle nose pliers along the flat sides, from the end of the tack.  

Other things to look for are simply dirty track and dirty wheels.  using the search feature of the forum you will find countless threads on cleaning track and wheels.  

even with the undersized transformer, your locomotive should run consistently in all area's of the track...well likely just a bit slower around tight curves, as they put more friction on the wheels.  

Once the track problems are solved, I second the CW80 as an inexpensive choice to run a couple accessories and 1 or 2 engines. MTH's Z1000 is a comparable choice to the CW-80, and preference goes back and forth on which one people think is better.  I'll take the CW80 because it's circuit protection is better, and I don't have to worry about unfused shorts that can occur with the Z1000 between track and accessory outputs.  The GW180 looks like a really nice transformer as well, but I just don't know a lot about them, and they are very rarely talked about here.  I think they just don't make sense cost-wise for a lot of folks.  

For your post-war style transformers, I find the ZW to be my favorite, followed by the KW.  These are really great work-horse transformers, but they do require the addition of a quality circuit breaker to protect the wiring in newer locomotives and such if you want to be safe with them.  You could also go with something like the 1033 which is somewhat comparable to the CW80 for output power if you need something small.  

On the top end products, I don't think the ZW-L can't (edited typo) be beat, but it's price is as heavy as the transformer is.  While there are some problems with it, the older ZW-C is a fair transformer and is expandable to use with 1 to 4 of the 180 watt powerhouse bricks, and can also be used to vary track power from TMCC if you ever expand in that direction.  I'm not a big fan of the MTH Z4000, mostly because it looks like someone got drunk, smashed their hands with a sledge hammer, then drew a picture of a ZW.  Ascetic preferences aside, it is a fairly good transformer, even if it is getting dated.  The newer lionel products offer much better short-circuit protection.

Other considerations:  

As others mentioned, buy a larger transformer than you think you need.  You don't want to have to buy another one the next time you expand your layout or buy an engine or accessory that draws some more power.  

Circuit breakers:  The circuit breakers inside most transformers are designed to protect the transformer from damage in a short, not to protect the trains or track wiring!  Unless you are using a current generation lionel transformer with fold-back or fast-acting electronic breakers (CW-80, GW-180, PH-180, ZW-L)  you are going to want to add circuit breakers between the transformer output and any track or accessories connected.  You want to use the lowest value circuit breaker you can get away with here.  For one engine, something in the 4-5 amp range should be more than enough, and I wouldn't recommend anything over a 7 amp breaker even with large transformers for someone that does not know exactly what they are doing.  

TVS diodes:  TVS's are very inexpensive parts, <$.50 each that snub out spikes of high voltage.  When things like switch machines and uncoupling tracks are turned off they can send a high voltage spike back through the track and transformer (among other things).  This is not a problem for old post war locomotives but for newer ones these spikes can damage the electronic components in them.  The simplest use of the TVS diode is to place it right on the transformer, one connected from each output post to a U post.  This will give you much more protection than nothing, but you can't have too many TVS's on your layout.  Many folks recommend placing one across the feeder wires at every feeder connection to the track.  Some folks even install them right inside the locomotives for optimal protection.

Pure Sine Wave vs. Chopped Wave transformers:  You may catch this one in conversation about transformers from time to time.  It is only an issue with running some of the very early electronic controlled locomotives.  I believe some with QSI electronics and some of MTH's original ProtoSound locomotives.  Any modern Locomotive should run fine with chopped wave transformers, and I believe Lionel even claims that that their engines prefer chopped wave transformers.  TMCC, Legacy, and DCS will all run just fine from Chopped waves within their recommended operating voltages.  

JGL

Last edited by JohnGaltLine

Thank you everybody for the advice, especially about the circuit breaker issues, which we will have to take care of. I'm kind of limited with what I can do with the track, as it is already nailed and scenic in place, and has been for years. I have problems with track rusting though, my layout is built with tubular track.

I will definitely take your advice on transformers, and get some better ideas about how much space I have to work with.          

With the track set in place, an option to ensure a solid connection might be to solder the rails of each piece together.  Use a Dremel tool with a small grinding wheel or wire brush to clean a small patch on the side of the rail at the joints.  A high power soldering gun such as the Weller 100/140 will heat the track quickly enough not to damage anything, and a small dab of solder to bridge the sections will insure a solid electrical connection without having to relay any track. 

JGL

RJR,

    The Z4K Remote Commander Receiver (Z4K Side Receiver) is still available, I just purchase another new one, I use to purchase them from Barry in E-Town, Pa but he is no longer on line, with his store.  I was hoping to pick one up used, here on the OGR, for decent money.   I guess those days are over however.   They are still available but are a little more expensive now.

Rob,

   IMO the CW-80 is not a good transformer except for a running a bumper cars line. MTH does not have them on their recommended Transformer write up for DCS, they are still an entry level Transformer, that should be eliminated from your layout as soon as you can upgrade.  IMO they should be put in the circle 7 file most time, few if any do not have problems.

PCRR/Dave

Last edited by Pine Creek Railroad

Your are correct.  And if something can happen, sooner or later, somewhere it will.

It doesn't plug into the wall.  It plugs into the Z4000, which is plugged into layout switch strip, breakered for 15-amp, which is connected by a long cord to a 120-volt outlet on a 12-gauge line breakered at 20 amps in a workshop breaker box which is connected to the main house box by 6-gauge cable (that was a job to pull through the joists) to the main box where it is breakered for 50 amps.   I do cut the switch, but of course I risk a squirrel breaking into the house and nibbling the cord between receptacle and layout switch strip.

"few if any do not have problems." 

 

With regard to CW80s, Lionel's go to beginners transformer of the last decade or more?

Data?  Lionel has made at least tens of thousands of these.  Do you think they would keep making them if they mostly had problems?  I don't think so.  The two I've owned are just fine. 

 

They do not operate MTH PS2 and PS3 locos reliably, or so I've heard, but many people own none of those locos and have no intention of owning them, for whatever reason.

I think it good advice to unplug, or otherwise shut off the input power to all transformers when you are not using them whether they have 2 separate fuses and a fold back circuit protecting all outputs, like a CW-80, or a single breaker and an unfused path for a short between accessory and track sides like the Z-1000 brick.  Pretty much any transformer should be unplugged unless it has an actual power switch that  internally disconnects the line cord.  

An internal, catastrophic failure is possible with any electric gadget or device, I wouldn't be any more worried about any one brand of train transformer than I am over which stereo receiver or TV I buy.  I pick the one that has the most features that I want, in a price range I can afford, and assume that a product recall will be issued if it turns out there is a design failure in the product that was not discovered when UL certified the thing in the first place.  If it's not, and the design is actually at fault, I think I'd have a pretty good lawsuit to work off of.  

 

As far as what will or will not run, as far as I know PS2 and PS3 will run just fine on chopped wave transformers.  I think original ProtoSound engines had a problem with the chopped wave.  I need to do some actual experimentation, but my theory is that the PS1 engines depend on a simple AC-DC converter/low pass filter to determine the track voltage, and this method will read near full voltage if the throttle is anywhere over half way on a chopped wave transformer.  

JGL

ADCX Rob posted:
Redshirt214 posted:

So, currently, I have a Model AC1803000, 77 watt transformer powering my rather substantial (larger than 4x8) layout

77 watts is the input rating, the output is only 40 watts.

A CW will give you 5 amps, double what you have now, including the programmable accessory output, and would be a good choice.

A different/new/larger transformer will not help with power dropouts, though. This is a mechanical issue that should be addressed separately.

The AC1803000 has an 18V 3 amp output, which would be 54 watts.  I don't know where the 40 watts is coming from.  It is a bit odd that the input is rated at 77 watts.  That is a lot of loss in the transformer.  That has to go somewhere, usually means heat if I am not mistaken.

George S posted:

The AC1803000 has an 18V 3 amp output, which would be 54 watts.  I don't know where the 40 watts is coming from.  It is a bit odd that the input is rated at 77 watts.  That is a lot of loss in the transformer.  That has to go somewhere, usually means heat if I am not mistaken.

54 watts  is the output of the wall wart. Then on to the controller - with more overhead losses(component losses and overhead for the whistle/bell control) - which is rated at 40 watts output.

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