Newb looking for some input/critiques

@dontchuknowimloco posted:

Hey all. Brand new here and also to the hobby. I got my son (who is 4 and absolutely loves trains) a Lionel starter set for Christmas. After running it I realized I could see myself really getting into this. I've spent the last weeks cleaning up my basement and searching for track plans. I found a few 5x10 layouts here, but decided to use a corner of the basement where it's a little less intrusive. I created this layout on scarm, and I'm just looking for others opinions and thoughts on it before I commit to spending the money.

Does it make sense? Is it practical? Is there something major I'm overlooking? Is it too busy?

Thanks for any input!

@dontchuknowimloco

I think that is a GREAT track plan! The following are a few things you may want to consider.

• If this layout is all the way against the walls in a corner, make sure you can reach the far backs of your trackage because, (One cardinal rule of model railroading) there WILL be derailments in the back and you will have to reach them to remove trains from the track,
• Either build the platforms several feet away from the walls or make sure that the platforms are on sturdy, well braced legs with heavy duty casters on them so the platforms can be rolled away from the walls if needed.
• Also, for a layout of the size you plan to build, make sure there are many track power connections throughout the trackage to compensate for electrical resistance due to distance from the track power source. I put a connection every 6 to 10 feet of track.

Those are my thoughts from years of experience in the hobby. I made all of these mistakes along the way.

Here is hoping that you and your son get many years of happiness from your new layout and, keep us posted as to your progress.

Thank you so much for the response Randy!

The layout has three points of access from the sides, and I'm bordering giant in terms of height, so I think I'll be okay. I still plan to lay it out first and see if I have any problems reaching. If so, casters it will be.

Welcome to the hobby and welcome to this forum (both you and your son). You will find all sorts of assistance and advice here, so don't hesitate to ask and to actively participate.

Before deciding on a final track plan, I would recommend researching a good number of possibilities, including the Ken Hoganson track plans published in each issue of OGR magazine, and even the book by Ken that we published that is a compilation of many of his previously published track plans (available through our Web Store).

It would not be a bad idea to research the type of track you might want to use, too, because there are a number of good options available, such as Lionel FasTrack, Atlas O, GarGraves, Ross, Menards, and others.

One thought would be to put the entrance and exit turnouts between the inner and outer loops together on the same side of the layout. That would free up space on the opposite side for accessories.

Don, nice plan. It’s amazing how we buy a train set for our kids and then we also get hooked into the hobby. Enjoy and don’t forget to let your Son play with the setup once in awhile. 😂

Allan, I was inspired by some of Ken's layouts! They're all great. And I think I'm decided on fastrack. I really love the look of atlas, but I already have the oval for fastrack so I figure it will save me a little money (and I do like the look of fastrack as well)

Richie, I love that idea!! 100% agreed.

Consider swapping the locations of the two crossovers between the two circuits on the main table. Suppose you have two trains running in opposite directions on the main table with right hand running, ala double track; when the inner one takes the longer route on the other table, it can rapidly get back on the inner loop, minimizing interference with the train on the outer loop.  The ability to reverse in either direction and the mainline crossing are both excellent features. I second Randy's points about access to the rear, especially the corner. If you have space to place the layout 24" from both walls, you can enjoy those two sides of the layout up front and personal. There's nothing quite like holding a remote in your hand and following along with your train through its entire route.

Romiller49 - it's pretty amazing how fast I got sucked in. He opened his set on Christmas, and I'm pretty sure that night I was on ebay looking at more locomotives and researching track plans lol

Father and son playing with trains together.  It doesn’t get much better than that.  Making memories that will last a lifetime.  ENJOY EVERY MINUTE.

Welcome aboard!!  I like you're track plan.  I will tell you I do like Ross switches.  You're gonna have soo much fun doing this with your son.  Grew up w a 4x8 layout that we folded the legs and put away around march.  To this day, when the weather gets cold in early Dec, it's time for trains.  If there are any train shows near you, take you're son. He'll have a ball. And if you're close to York PA, ya gotta go.  Have fun. 

Of course I like it a lot.  Very simular to my layout below.  An oval and figure 8 is great for running trains. I would recomend reversing one pair of switches that interconnect the two loops so trains can change loops from both directions without reversing.

Charlie

One option, it you are going to use fastrack, is to place the track on top of painted (grass & dirt textured) carpet under padding. This way, you can run the track power wires up thru the table top under the carpet underpad and with a long length of wire (I use telephone wire) to connect to the track where ever needed. This keeps the wire out of site, and allows you to make changes to the track as your skill and interests change. I then place the buildings on the layout and am free to move them as I make changes and my ideas progress.

I have included some pictures to give you an idea of what is possible. I have made so many changes over the years, added sidings, and made some major changes to the layout, all using the same bench work and carpet underpad.

I add clips to the phone wire to easily connect the power wires to the fastrack.

Then you run the wire up thru the tabletop, with lots of extra wire to "reach" to where the fastrack is located. You then plug the power wires into the bottom of the fastrack section, then turn the track over and plug it into the other sections. I use a hobby knife to cut a slit in the underpad under the track and feed the wire through. If you change your track location, the now unused slit in the underpad is not visible.

This process also works for operating accessories and lighted buildings.

I selected my "earth" colour, had the paint mixed at Home Depot, then mixed my "earth" colour 1:1 with plain white (I call this train earth). When painting the carpet underpad, I mixed the train earth 1:1 with water, to make the paint very "wet", so when painting the carpet underpad, which is really a sponge, it will take time to dry rather than just being soaked up by the underpad. While still wet, I sprinkle on various grass and dirt mixtures, then let it dry for a day or two. Once dry you can use a soft paint brush to brush off any grass that did not stick, and use it again for the next section. I would do a few square ft at a time, as you have to apply the grass (really coloured sawdust) while the underpad is still really wet.

I use velcro, half stapled to the wood tabletop and half glued to the underpad to hold things in place along the edges to prevent the underpad from "curling up". You do not need anything in the center. I use a roll of velcro, cut into 2" pieces and apply them every ft or two. You can experiment to see how frequent the strips need to be to prevent the underpad from curling up at the edges of the tabletop.

Joe, that is exactly the look I'm going for! I was just researching last night what to put on top of the plywood. Do you have foam under that? And what kind of carpet under padding did you use? Thank you for all of that information. Very helpful

Over the years (I have been building & expanding the layout for over 25 years, I have used different types of underpad. This mostly due to what I could find.

You want a good, thick underpad. The first stuff I used was flat on one side and had an "egg carton" texture on the bottom side, which was great for hiding the wires without causing any lumps in the underpad. I found this stuff at a carpet store, it was about 1/2" thick.

When I expanded the layout, I used the thickest underpad I could find at Home Depot. This also worked OK, but not as thick as my original underpad.

A 3rd type was underpad which was made up of chips glued together. This required more paint to cover up the colour change. This also worked, however it is better to get a solid, light colour underpad as it is easier to paint and turn into "grass and dirt" look.

I laid the underpad directly on the plywood table top. You could also put a layer of foam board on the plywood, however this is not required. The underpad softens the vibration of the engine so that you do not have the "echo or drum effect" that you get when putting fastrack directly on plywood.

The one picture showing the track wire connection has a tapered piece of foam board placed on top of the underpad, under the track with a slope on the sides for ballast grading, to change the level of the track which is going up a hill to a bridge.

In summary, buy the best, thickest underpad you can find. The amount (sq.ft) is not much, so cost is not really a consideration.

Here are some more pictures of the underpad process:

Joe, thank you SO much for writing that all out! All super helpful information and answered a lot of questions I was unsure about.. Excited to get this underway.

And thank you to all the other comments and suggestions. What a great community

dontchuknowimloco, I love the name you picked!  You can tell from mine, I don't have much imagination! 

Welcome to the hobby and welcome to the OGR Forum!  You have certainly come to the right place!!  Everyone has given you great ideas.  I will agree with Allan Miller and Joe K.  Joe really did a masterful job of showing what he did with methods that are great for someone new in the hobby!

@dontchuknowimloco  Welcome to the forum and the hobby!  Your layout plan looks like a good start especially the reversing loops.  I agree with other comments.  As you progress, please consider also posting the actual SCARM File as an attachment.

Like you, I introduced my daughter to O gauge trains when she was very young.  Based on this experience, I have a few recommendations.

1. Build the train table low enough that your son can reach what may interest him.  It can be raised later if desired, or you may decide to built a new layout entirely.
2. If you don't already have one, get a lightweight two-step stool that he can move around the table to reach things better.
3. Allow space around the perimeter of the table for a car road.  He will likely enjoy running cars around the layout by hand.  This will be easier for him if there's nothing in the way of reaching the road.
4. Plan the layout so that there's plenty of room for operating accessories, even if they will be added later.  In addition to placing these operating accessories near the edge, they can also be placed near the inside of a pop-up opening inside the layout.
5. Also consider including some sort of tunnel where the train disappears from view.

Here are a few pictures of the temporary layout I built for my daughter.

The K-Line milk platform/loader was one of her favorites.

Excellent suggestions, Steve!

dontchuknowimloco, Those are things I did not do, and neither of my daughters became very interested in trains.  Now they are in their 30s and are supportive of my hobby, but that is all. 

Nice layout design!!  It has a lot of operating possibilities.  Having 8 kids, albeit the youngest is now 13, and now having 3 grandchildren as well as observing younger visitors, I offer some things for your consideration that in my and my wife’s experience helped keep everyone’s interest in the trains and created wonderful memories.  I see that by the time I completed my draft, my comments may be repetitive of others, but I hope this is still helpful.  First some context, some suggestions, and at the end I will pose a question for you to consider.

We have found almost all kids are very attracted to the trains, but we found interest in operating trains varied from one to the other and even varies depending upon their age.  Some of my kids lost all interest in operating trains, but some really liked projects, building and painting things, putting those creations on the layout, playing with things on the layout, having and creating their own place.

Now that some of our kids have their own home, they like getting back the things they had.  My oldest daughter had no interest in operating trains when she was young but loved projects and setting things up.  Now that she has her own home she does have an interest in operating the train (as does her husband!).  One of her first questions when she asked about her train items was whether we still had the multi-stone colored plaster building that she and I painted together when she was young…yep, had it in one of two boxes of items we brought to them before Christmas this year and I had a flood of memories and joy as I helped her set things up under their Christmas tree.

This wonderful hobby provides so much more opportunity to bring a family together and provide a way to spend time together doing projects, learning wiring of accessories, building things, etc., never mind creating fantastic memories.  However, if you want this, you need to make sure you provide for things they will have interest in at different times in their life.

It is with that context I provide the following items for your consideration.  But I should also mention, it doesn’t have to be perfect right now, part of the joy, memories, and making it fun, and keeping interest is adding things on as you go (and if the bug catches you…that won’t be a problem !!).

1) Kids to like to play, to physically do something, drive cars and trucks around from place to place, etc.  We found that having a place they can do this without having to reach over a track is really important.

- Consider if you can add space between the edge of the track and the edge of the layout for your son to play

- Consider pulling the layout away from the wall and having more play space

- Add roads he can drive things on, places he can set things up, etc.

- Space is always an issue, but having space for kids to play is essential to keeping their interest and keeping the trains from just becoming ‘dad’s toy’.

- You can use the space out of reach of overly curious hands to model things you want to model, or put delicate operating accessories as well as prevent young hands from effectively modeling the after effects of a tornado or hurricane

- While you run a train, you might drop off some milk cans or logs and while he moves those things with cars and trucks, you don’t have to worry about him playing with things on the other side of the track, leaving things on the track, causing a short, or getting hit by a moving train

2)  Kids really like pushing buttons, using/playing with operating accessories, etc.  Leave room for these and know many of these work best next to straight track.

- Examples include log loaders, saw mills, milk cars, coal and log dump cars (these might even carry non-scale toy animals that get a ride and then dropped or even dumped off), operating passenger stations, sly fox and the hunter, Mr. Spiff and puddles, Diners and other things wired to only run when a button is pushed (never mind you don’t have to listen to the constant noise bc it’s only operates when it’s pushed ), a billboard, etc.

  - A big hit when my kids were young, and now a hit with my granddaughter, was/is the helicopter car and operating milk cars

- We had an accessory rail track that wasn’t even on the main track set up and it just sat there.  for them to operate the helicopter car and one for the milk car. Add bumpers so young hands are less likely to push it off the rails, and

.  Have it on a separate transformer or wire it separately with a breaker so shorts caused by young hands don’t shut the whole layout down while the trains are running

3) Include uncoupling tracks and or operating tracks within your layout to provide more play opportunities

4) Provide space for kids to have their own ‘property’  They love it and my wife and I think this is essential to keeping interest!!

- Provides ownership, pride in their own place to maintain and set up how they want it and it’s fun to see how that changes as they age.

- Provides opportunity for them to add things from birthday and Christmas gifts, or something they got at a train show/sale.  Maybe their own house, a garage, car, truck, people, or project building these (creates great memories), trees, horses, cows, dogs, cats, fences…and they can drive their cars and trucks to a store, go get things, etc

5) Design layout height so work for both you and kids (yep it can be done)

- Make the layout high enough so you can sit under it, work comfortably to run wires, even have a place for storing boxes on shelves on wheels so the boxes are not on the basement floor and you can move them when you need to work in that area.  Now, make it kid friendly…

- Build an elevated platform fastened to the edge of the layout for kids to walk on.  I even put foam camping pads on it so it was nice to walk on and decent for me to kneel on when I played with them or worked on the layout.

- Our platform was against the wall so they didn’t fall off.  If it can’t be there be sure to add a railing or they will get excited move around as the play and forget there’s a ‘drop off’.

I might summarize my suggestions by saying step back and ask yourself, what is your goal?

• Create a layout for your son
• Create a layout for you, or
• Create a layout that both dad and son (and maybe friends, family…grandchildren?) can enjoy for years to come?

Neither is right or wrong.  But once you consider that question, is there anything you would do different with your design, construction, etc.

I am hopeful these suggestions will help you come up with more things to consider that this old guy has forgotten about and that you help all of us by posting any ideas and considerations others have not posted as it may one day help someone else.

Have fun and build a legacy of memories for you and your son to treasure forever!!

A couple of points not yet mentioned:

1) Kids want to do what grown-ups do--this includes helping build the layout and using tools.

2) Kids can often do more than we think they can, if we will teach them and trust them.

My oldest son was using the drill/screw gun at 5 years old. Here's a shot of my younger son soldering at 12.

SteveH, Steve W, Ken wing - a sincere thank you to your responses. Means a ton to me that everyone took the time to write that all out so that I can have a better experience with my son. It's all fantastic and definitely a lot of thoughts I had not considered.

I was thinking to myself the other day that it would be nice to have a road for my son to use, but realized that I didn't leave enough space for that.. And Steve, I love the idea of a pop-up. What size is that layout you posted? Would love to include that.

I'm debating now whether I should go back to my original 5x10 so that we can access all sides. I definitely want the layout to be fun for both of us and not just myself (he's the one who got me into it anyways), and also my daughter when she gets a little older.

Whelp, back to the basement and scarm tonight to see if I can squeeze out some more space and come up with some new ideas.

The pictured layout was put together using one 4 x 8, two 2 x 8 platforms and a handful of planks and small pieces of plywood.  Overall it was roughly 6’ x 14’. In the top photo, the foreground table section back to the pop up was 6’ x 8’.  That 2012 layout predates SCARM.  

I designed my layout for my kids to access, so I chose a table height of 22", which allowed space underneath for two stacked bankers boxes (for storage of train stuff, etc).

The layout I now have has evolved over 25 years to fill the room, however the lower level in half the room is still the original table built for my kids to access. The table stands independently, so it could be moved.