Pete,
I will try on Monday. Maybe a few folks calling will help get answers.
Will advise, thanks for the information.
GGG posted:dukeofnuke posted:Sent a set of stock Lionel gears to NWSL to have made out of some sort of superior plastic. Just got an email from them stating that the gears were "too difficult" to make. Now I have to find someone else who can make the gears. I will find a solution to this Niagara gear problem.
How could those gears be too difficult to make for a company like that? Not cost effect I can buy. G
It might be due to the fact that these gears are Modulus 0.7. NWSL doesn't show any of that size in stock. Also checking numerous sources they are not common. SDP, has metal metric gears but they are shown as Modulus .75. Close does not count here.
PSU, good luck contacting them. I am still waiting for a reply to my email.
Pete
Just got word from NWSL that the gears I ordered were "too difficult" to make. Need to find another custom gear manufacturer that can make these gears as a direct/drop in replacement for my ailing Lionel Niagara.
What about contacting a place that sells 3d printers? I was at a maker fair last year and there are user groups that cater to these kind of projects. Might be a good way to get a good reference.
Thanks for the advice. Speculation on my part, but I'm thinking the degree of difficulty went up exponentially in proportion to the of bad press displayed here in reaction to $85.00 per gear production cost, no matter how many were ordered. Such is the price of honesty.
What makes me wonder about Lionel is this, several of the engines they have released in the past have drivetrain problems. They do sell a replacement shaft for the EM1, that is staked on both ends for $20.00. To this date, they have made no effort to resolve the drivetrain issues in the 6-28069 Niagara. That being the case, why would anyone go out and spend thousands of dollars on a new engine, when they know Lionel gives no customer support?
Norton posted:GGG posted:dukeofnuke posted:Sent a set of stock Lionel gears to NWSL to have made out of some sort of superior plastic. Just got an email from them stating that the gears were "too difficult" to make. Now I have to find someone else who can make the gears. I will find a solution to this Niagara gear problem.
How could those gears be too difficult to make for a company like that? Not cost effect I can buy. G
It might be due to the fact that these gears are Modulus 0.7. NWSL doesn't show any of that size in stock. Also checking numerous sources they are not common. SDP, has metal metric gears but they are shown as Modulus .75. Close does not count here.
PSU, good luck contacting them. I am still waiting for a reply to my email.
Pete
Why would that matter if they are making them. It is Module I believe. PCD/N. G
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Hi Larry,
The unique design of the mechanism in those engines makes them really difficult to re-do. There was an article in MODEL RAILROADING magazine (May/June 1986, pp52+)--not to be confused with Model RailrodER magazine-- where a guy took a stab at it. Sorry we can't be of more help.
Duke, some of us have been trying to contact North Lima to see if they can tell us what their gears are made of. Maybe the more people that call or email might return a response. There is a chance the gears they are now selling might be made of Delrin which is what NWSL was going to make them out of. If so this would be good news for everyone.
Not sure why Dave R is referring to a 1986 article or why these would be any more difficult to make other than the fact he might have to invest in a new cutting tool for which there would little or no other application.
Pete
I couldnt understand the relationship between a 1986 article and gears produced in 2000. Then again, I'm not a machinist. I am buying more gears from North Lima and sending them to someone else who can make them. When I got the first set, they appeared to be nylon. I will find a solution to this problem.
I have delrin gears. The material looks nearly identical to the North Lima gears.
If we don't hear back from North Lima I intend to have the analyzed but I will have to destroy one of the North Lima gears to do that. I am hoping to avoid that if possible.
Pete
Pete
I ordered two sets of the gears from North Lima, so I will have a spare set. Feel free to contact me.
You know fellas, one thing that might make this engine unique is the fact that it was built by Aijin. I was told at one time this was the only piece built by them for Lionel. Perhaps they chose a gearbox that isn't that commonly used. Maybe that's why NWSL is mentioning an old article and is reluctant to get involved. It sounds like this gearbox has been around a while.
I have one of these boxed up under the layout somewhere along with a full set of GGD cars for it. I may be in the market for a spare set of gears myself.
Perhaps I need to hear from someone that is running the "new" Lionel gears. The original gears I have didnt last one hour.
NWSL changed ownership. The original owner, Raoul Martin, was a machinist and very talented engineer. I suspect they now make only those things Raoul had made setups and jigs for.
The USH gearbox had an idler gear like that. Failed with regularity. Raoul produced replacements out of Celcon.
When I re-gear, I only use the Mod 0.6 without idler gears. If my Lionel FEF ever strips a gear, that is what will go in there. I still haven't made the driver tires, so I haven't operated it yet. I will yank a Japanese or Korean gearbox in a heartbeat and replace it with NWSL. For me. I work too slowly to do it professionally.
That being said, which plastic would be the best to use in producing these gears? Already been told that brass is a poor choice when used with a brass worm gear, the result would be brass dust. Going to order seven sets of gears, six other Niagara owners will benefit.
I talked to Mike and he will get back with an answer.
Marty,
Excellent news - Thanks for the effort
Marty Fitzhenry posted:I talked to Mike and he will get back with an answer.
I don't have a Niagara anymore, but I hope there is a solution out there for those that do!
Kudos Marty!
After some research on the subject: delrin, celcom, acetal, ramtal, duracon, kepital, and hostaform are all the same plastic. All of which can either be machined or formed. But much stronger than nylon. I have contacted a machinist who can produce the gears I need, plus six other sets. Hopefully I'm on to something.
Duke, look back on this thread for my posts. You can buy the correct profile delrin gears at Stock Drive Parts. The part numbers are listed. Your machinist can modify these easily to work. The cost will be a fraction of making gears from scratch.
Pete
And a brass gear will fail even if driven by Celcon. Bronze is the best metal for worm gears, and steel is good for worms. I believe Celcon is better than bronze, but not sure.
What is the gear ratio of this drive mechanism? How many motor rotations to get one Driver wheel rotation?
Hey guys,
Looks like you've all done a great job of coming up with some possible solutions, albeit some being more painful than others! I have a suggestion for an even easier fix. Can someone with one of these FUBAR'd gearboxes, who has it extracted from the loco send me the complete gearbox (with the messed up gear). Marty Fitzhenry and I have exchanged some emails about this late last week, I advised Marty that I personally rebuilt/modified one of these Niagara's last year but for the life of me I cannot remember what parts I used from inventory. If someone is willing to throw me a gear box I am willing to do the reaearch to figure out what I used and advise how we can all fix this debacle (read into this statement "easily"). In addition, we have a new CNC lathe coming in March which "may" give us the ability to cut our own custom gears in house (it will be a nice addition to our 3D printer and CNC 3-axis mill!)
If someone is willing to send me their "extracted" gearbox please shoot me an email offline at mreagan@lionel.com
Thanks & Happy New Year,
Mike
Lionel
Very classy Mike, I hope you're able to solve this vexing issue. I've only encountered it once and I just put the same old plastic gears back in. 
New Delrin gears would be nice! 
Guys, what are your thoughts of Lionel maybe using the same gear box configuration with good gears on the Northern locomotives made today? I am talking the Niagara gearbox design on say an 844 or ATSFE 3751 Northern. I will call Big Mike and get his thoughts on this.
Marty and Bob2: As Norm mentioned, the 28069 Niagara is fairly unique in that it even HAS a separately removable gearbox. This is a GOOD thing, because if the gearbox were built into the chassis (as on most 3-rail locos), it would be difficult or impossible to replace the gear and/or adjust the mesh.
In the case of the CCII Niagara, unfortunately the materials/design of the gearbox were substandard. I would say replacing the whole gearbox with an NWSL 0.6 mod unit would be an effective repair. YES at least one old gear would have to be removed, and the new worm wheel would have to be pressed onto the Lionel axle. This is a common procedure for 2-railers who repower old mechanisms, difficult but a lot of folks have experience and can do it easily with the right tools.
Bob in the case of recently-produced Lionel Northerns such as the FEF or 3751, there is no easy way to replace the gears because the gearbox is cast into the chassis. Installing a NWSL gearbox in one of these locos would require milling out a lot of the chassis, a real chore, if it's even possible.
Bottom line, what we SHOULD be asking Lionel for, are replaceable gearboxes like the CCII Niagara has on ALL of their premium steam locos. Just hopefully ones made with sturdier internals! Good thread.
Ted, you seem to minimize the effort to replace the axle gear. How many people have the equipment to remove a wheel, press on a new gear then re quarter the driver? OTOH replacing the existing gears with ones of better material would be possible by anyone who can turn a screwdriver....................and some patience. Did I mention working on one of these engines require some patience?
Kudos to Mike for this offer. If I didn't already have a few sets of Delrin gears mine would be on its way already.
Pete
Interesting post about the replaceable gear box. I was thinking negative because of the 10 million screws that one removes to get to it. I guess there is always a silver lining.
I replaced the gears in one about a year ago. I got the gears from Lima. I need to ask how it's doing. I'm somewhat afraid to ask since I thought I would never want to see it again. I never charge for anything so it keeps the number of requests down. The owner could not find the gear box cover and the front pilot (he started the disassembly at his home)...so it may not have any miles on it yet. It did run great though when I had it back together with what I had.
Really glad to see Mike R come in. That gives me more hope if I ever see this engine come back again.
Ted Sowirka posted:Guys, what are your thoughts of Lionel maybe using the same gear box configuration with good gears on the Northern locomotives made today? I am talking the Niagara gearbox design on say an 844 or ATSFE 3751 Northern. I will call Big Mike and get his thoughts on this.
Marty and Bob2: As Norm mentioned, the 28069 Niagara is fairly unique in that it even HAS a separately removable gearbox. This is a GOOD thing, because if the gearbox were built into the chassis (as on most 3-rail locos), it would be difficult or impossible to replace the gear and/or adjust the mesh.
In the case of the CCII Niagara, unfortunately the materials/design of the gearbox were substandard. I would say replacing the whole gearbox with an NWSL 0.6 mod unit would be an effective repair. YES at least one old gear would have to be removed, and the new worm wheel would have to be pressed onto the Lionel axle. This is a common procedure for 2-railers who repower old mechanisms, difficult but a lot of folks have experience and can do it easily with the right tools.
Bob in the case of recently-produced Lionel Northerns such as the FEF or 3751, there is no easy way to replace the gears because the gearbox is cast into the chassis. Installing a NWSL gearbox in one of these locos would require milling out a lot of the chassis, a real chore, if it's even possible.
Bottom line, what we SHOULD be asking Lionel for, are replaceable gearboxes like the CCII Niagara has on ALL of their premium steam locos. Just hopefully ones made with sturdier internals! Good thread.
Theres no epimdemic of failed gears on any other Lionel scale steamer. Every other Lionel scale steamer from 2000 to the present ( and prior as well) has steel gears that should outlast the owner of the loco provided they are greased.
Lionel would do better adjusting the tooling so that the boiler would mount on the FEF/ATSF chassis and add legacy to a future re- release. At the same time addressing the driver pitting and tires falling off as well as the breaking driveshaft. All of which are standard failures exclusive to this loco, with the exception of the driveshaft issue that it shares with the EM1 of the same period.
Lionel had a reliable gearbox figured out before the niagara was made, and still uses it today, albiet with a secondary reduction gear recently added which was taken from K Line gearbox design.
Rick I'm sorry but I disagree... the first time one of your locos takes a dive from the table you'll wish the wheels, gears, axles, etc., could be replaced with the turn of a screwdriver. A replaceable gearbox is always better.
Historically Lionels have been reliable because they are geared tall and turn fairly slowly. Before the advent of electronic speed control, many locos had unrealistically high top speeds, and sacrificed a lot of slow-speed performance in trade. Most O-gaugers simply didn't know better. All high-end brass models, American Models S-gauge and HO scale steamers are made with replaceable gearboxes, wheels, and axles. There are plenty of bronze and steel KTM-style gearboxes which have given reliable service since the 1950s and 60s; this design was also used on later-production Williams Crown Edition and Weaver brass locos, with good results.
Gears DO wear from heavy use, lack of lubrication, and especially improper mesh. When the gearbox/motor mount is built into the frame there's no good way to adjust the mesh. We hope it's right from the factory; if it's wrong you'll find out in a couple of years ;-) Then it will be difficult to replace the gear on the driving axle, and unless it's exactly the same size and lead angle as the original, you've got yourself a $1500 shelf queen. I know that Mike R. and company are trying very hard, but compared to the Postwar era, modern production runs are short and parts availability can get spotty. Being able to replace individual parts or the whole gearbox is a much better option than trying to source an exact replacement for the original. It also makes it easier to lower the gear ratio, substitute a steel-tired wheelset (two wheels and bearings already mounted on the axle) for one with rubber tires, correct wheels that are out of gauge, or convert to 2-rail.
Please don't get me started on the K-Line design. The secondary reduction gear isn't a bad thing, but the motor belongs in the firebox where it can be as large as possible. The worm gear should NOT be affixed to the motor shaft, for the same reasons as cited above: when the motor or worm wears out, you will have to source an exact replacement motor with the worm already installed. Also this precludes use of ball thrust bearings, so the thrust load is borne by the motor bearings--not good for longevity!
When MTH started manufacturing HO scale steam locos, they didn't dare try to pitch their 3-rail "toy train" mechanical designs to that crowd. Especially with today's prices, it's time for O gaugers to expect more. Lionel has used separate gearboxes in a few of their high-end locos (JLC series Y-6b, Vision Line CC2, etc.) I'm glad you're content with the current design and there are plenty available for sale. But I would like to see Lionel AND MTH adopt a separate gearbox and two-piece chassis in all of their newly-tooled offerings.
Fascinating.
First, really nice that Mike Reagan is going to fix this the easy way.
Second, it is true that it takes some skill to remove a worm gear from a locomotive driver axle and get a different one back on. Everybody knows that Joe Foehrkolb does this kind of work? I do it too, but only for myself.
I never charge for anything so it keeps the number of requests down. The owner could not find the gear box. . . .
Man - I charge fifty bucks an hour including coffee breaks. That keeps the number of requests down, but unfortunately not zero. I am boosting that to seventy five, just to make sure!
Final comment: some gearboxes really do last forever. The Lionel 700e comes to mind, as well as the center driver Scale Craft gears. But yes - tinplate O Scale is moving so close to 2-rail that it is inevitable - - you will have sprung, removable drivers, clevised side rods, and gearboxes, and probably soon - just like your 2-rail friends have had since 1938.
Thanks to all of you for the wealth of information you have provided here regarding the Lionel Niagara. I have this engine, and the only work that has been done on it was when Alex performed one of his up grades on it a coupe of years ago.
Does anyone know the failure rate for the gears? My Niagara does not see a lot of running, but I guess it is over 10 years old by now and the gears could fail. Do I need to consider a preemptive replacement of the gears? I really like this engine and I want to keep it running.
Thanks,
Richard
Hi Richard
Some advice I can pass along is the two Niagara's I have here now were pulling a large amount of freight cars. I was told it was over 30 cars, which puts a lot of stress on old gears. It would be a good idea to open your gear box check inside, if the teeth on the gears are all okay then I would give a good cleaning to all the gears then apply a plastic / nylon safe grease.
Alex
Pete,
I left a message today. Hoping to hear back.
Kevin
Mike,
I have two Niagara's One Alex has, the other I have at home. Both need upgrades / repairs. The one Alex has is the worst of the two. The one I have here at home is doing the exact same thing prior to the gears going south. In forward and reverse the unit jumps / hiccups before it runs smooth. Like is is missing a step, almost like when your learning how to drive a stick shift, you miss a few gears before you get it right = no pun intended
Be more than happy to send both if it helps. I will call and leave you a message
Lauren Morris has my information or feel free to email me. Everything is in my profile.
Kevin
I spoke to Mike this morning and I am sending him a Niagara.
Kevin
Ok Guys, I hope this is good news. I just got the results back from one of my chemistry colleagues and it appears the gears currently being sold by North Lima are in fact Delrin. Using material from one of the SDP gears I purchased which was listed as Acetal (Delrin) we got a spectrum. When we ran a spectrum on material from the North Lima gear it was nearly identical. More importantly both match the spectrum listed in the chemistry literature for Delrin. For any other chemists/scientists out there it was run on a Shimadzu Prestige 21 FTIR. I have attached some pdfs of the results. Until I extract the original gears and test them in the same way we won't know for sure if they are delrin or nylon. All along most of us have assumed they were nylon. So for those who plan to replace your gears with delrin, look no further than North Lima. For those who hope Mike R comes up with a better alternative, you can sit tight.
Pete
Attachments
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Thanks Alex,
I have never opened up my Niagara. I understand it is a difficult engine to take apart. I will see what I can do.
I only pull 12 to 15 freight cars, and no more the 10 heavy weight passenger cars with my Niagara. With the number of engines I have my Niagara only sees run time a couple times a year.
Richard
Richard Gonzales posted:Thanks Alex,
I have never opened up my Niagara. I understand it is a difficult engine to take apart. I will see what I can do.
I only pull 12 to 15 freight cars, and no more the 10 heavy weight passenger cars with my Niagara. With the number of engines I have my Niagara only sees run time a couple times a year.
Richard
Take pictures with your phone as you go.
PSU1980 posted:Mike,
I have two Niagara's One Alex has, the other I have at home. Both need upgrades / repairs. The one Alex has is the worst of the two. The one I have here at home is doing the exact same thing prior to the gears going south. In forward and reverse the unit jumps / hiccups before it runs smooth. Like is is missing a step, almost like when your learning how to drive a stick shift, you miss a few gears before you get it right = no pun intended
Be more than happy to send both if it helps. I will call and leave you a message
Lauren Morris has my information or feel free to email me. Everything is in my profile.
Kevin
I will share my experience as mine also would hesitate before moving as listed above. My plastic drive shaft stripped and I had to go in for surgery. What I found during the repair effort was the cam that drives the cherry switch was rubbing hard up against the switch assembly. A simple bend of the mounting arm removed the jump at start up. I inspected the gears which looked okay, drilled and pinned the center shaft to the 'U' joint at both ends and put her back together. I've put about 25 hours at moderate to heavy loads since with no problems, '(knocking on wood). I did buy a set of stainless 4mm 'U' joints and replacement gears to have on hand.
