Alex, I am working on finding gears. No real luck at the three main suppliers, PIC design, WM Berg or Stock Drive Parts. I have found one that might work for the smaller 13 tooth gear but no match for the 19 tooth. I plan to check out the RC shops. I have a set of gears from Lima I will use to match up. I doubt there will be any exact replacements but at least hope to find match gear diameters and pitches. Then machine to fit. Not interested in paying 85 bucks each to have them custom cut. 

As for the U joint I am using one from Stock Drive parts but also have a pair of metal ones from eBay. Search on 4mm U joints and you will see them. Just use a piece of 4 mm rod to join them. I am busy now but can email more info later.

 More info here:

https://ogrforum.com/t...l-nyc-niagara-owners

https://ogrforum.com/t...40#41553382150830740

Pete

Alex,

Is that mine or Jeff's unit? Both of us blew the gearing pull lite consists. Great .pictures

Wow, that is ugly. Maybe I should hand over my other unit and have you do a rebuild before it breaks. Plastic - can't believe Lionel used without a major life cycle test - but plastic all to save a few bucks.

Hopefully, we can get it back on the tracks.

Alex,

I just ordered a few of the universal joints. Not sure when they will arrive, however, once I get them, I will give you them as I am going to ask you do upgrade my second unit once this get back on the rails.

I fixed one of these with the gears from Lima. I tried to buy better gears from North West Short Line, filled out the form for a quote but never got a reply. 

I ordered the Universal Stainless Steel RC Joint coupling 4mm

Thanks guys for all the great info, Kevin this is Jeff's engine. The 4mm drive shaft is a good idea but the bigger issue is the plastic gears in the gear box. Being they are plastic even if i replace them with new one's they can easily strip again. Like Chuck and Pete said above it's not easy to find Metal or brass gears. Pete is on the hunt for metal or brass gears, let's hope he can find them so we can repair these engine's the right way. Keep your fingers crossed.

Thanks,

Alex

I have four MTH Niagaras in my collection - glad I passed on the Lionel model.

Alex,

Read the OGR forum chain on these gears and drive shafts. I would suspect that my second engine will experience the same issue. Unfortunate that Lionel used plastic on a key piece. Crappy QA and I would be hard pressed to belief they did a life cycle test on the gear and shaft. Strong QA and testing would have identified this issue. Nylon gears could work if engineered properly. If I had to pay for them to be cut as suggested - I will just to have the engine functional. Would purchase a few sets just to have them and to reduce costs for all that need them

Hopefully Pete and Chuck are successful. 

Has anyone thought of contacting Sunset Limited to see if they have these items or something close?

Anyways, we will wait until you all get it settled.

Plastic does a real good job of disintegrating over time - especially when subjected to temperature variances.  

I can imagine if Lionel redoes this engine with Legacy (and I do say IF), they'll fix this problem and the replacement gears for that one will be metal or some other stronger material. Then, people can use those on the older CC models, too.

Mikado 4501 posted:

I can imagine if Lionel redoes this engine with Legacy (and I do say IF), they'll fix this problem and the replacement gears for that one will be metal or some other stronger material. Then, people can use those on the older CC models, too.

In this era of Lionel ordering their spare parts by buying extra complete units and then disassembling them stateside, what good will that do?  There quite likely won't be enough extras for people with the old engine to all buy a set.

-Dave

Also don't rule out a differently designed gearbox. A new gearbox may not use the idler gears, just the worm on a worm gear mounted on the axle. It may come to having to replace the complete gearbox if replacements cannot be had. I haven't ruled that out for my engine.

Pete

Mine has been self-benched due to a cherry switch failure.  Not thrilled to find out about a nylon drive gear problem that I didn't know I had to look forward to as well.

Kind of stupid meshing metal with nylon.  Had the same problem with my 71 Pontiac having nylon teeth on the timing gear.  Teeth started breaking, clogging the oil filter and pump, and loosening up the timing chain - made the car run funny.

It's the oil that causes the nylon to become brittle and fail.

Fred

I agree Fred about the oil. I plan to use teflon grease if I have to resort to using the nylon gears.

Pete

These CC-2 engines were supposed to be the latest and greatest from big-L at the time and we see the faults with them now!

Now the VisionLine is the latest and greatest,has anyone opened up a gearbox in one of them and see if Lionel is still using nylon gears? Even with Legacy electronics are they still not using the cherry switch or did they change to the hall effect sensor?  I do like Gunrunner Johns deal with his optical sensor and hope he gets it together and to market ,I just don't care for the reed switch and magnets,never had good luck with it.

Just my 2 cent's,Doug

Alex have you tried gears for radio control race cars? I found a brass drive shaft universal for my EM-1 this way.

Yes the plastic gears... heat, moisture and stress will disintegrate them all soon.  

J, The RC shops are my next stops. Its highly unlikely anyone makes a drop in replacement. I am hoping to find some gears with the correct profile that I can modify. If anyone else wants to help with the search the basic dimensions are as follows.

Small Gear, 13T, OD .410", width .132" with a .125" (1/8") center hole.

Large gear, 19T, OD .576", width .132" with a .125" center hole.

Number of teeth and OD are the most important. If its wider or has a smaller or no center hole then it could be machined to fit. Anodized aluminum or mild steel preferable, also delrin. Less desirable stainless steel or brass.

Don't ask me about pressure angles or mods. A real "gearhead" ME would help here.

Pete

This always upsets (well, you know...) me when it comes up. The Niagara is my second-favorite loco (guess #1) and I have a Lionel, an MTH and more-than-one Samhongsa (Williams) version. The Lionel is the best-looking, and has been a problem-child from day 1 - my gears are still fine, but the driveshaft split (fixed). 

I hope one of you guys comes up with a "kit" for this (gears and joint) - I'll buy at least one, maybe two. I would pay a decent price for it. (Wouldn't it be nice if someone - oh, say, Lionel, just to be crazy - did just that? Not for free; I'd pay.)

BTW, my MTH PS2 Niagara is an awful runner (surges) and, even at Factory Defaults, won't answer my DCS Remote Commander; it will get ERR one day. Lionel sound is better (this is not  new loco). MTH uses plastic in it's steam drive trains, also. Don't know about the gears, but a Premier Hudson that I ERR-installed this year has plastic driveshafts and u-joints. Saw them myself.

The Samhongsa brass Niagara (with ERR) seems to be a tank. Tracks better (sprung), too. A bit typically "brass-noisy".

What about trying this? They can fabricate anything you want. Just need a drawing.

http://www.emachineshop.com/

Alex, like many engines from that series, I would guess Lionel (that Lionel) was hoping people would put them under glass and not run them.  Lionel today would never put out something that poor.  Lionel today is the best ever.  I sold my Lionel Niagara and informed the buyer of what may happen.  I have worked on so many of those I can do them in my sleep.   I get the drive shaft from Lionel.

I would like to see that engine in Legacy with all the bells and whistles.  Ryan who is in charge of the high end locomotives would do it right.  He is aware of what was and he is the man that will bring us better locomotives.  

With all the problems that engine has, I have seen them drop big time in price.  They are very pretty but it is what it is.  At this time, I have my first MTH Niagara outfitted with a new PS-32 board.  It is great.  I will keep it until Lionel does one in Legacy.

Great topic guys.  My Niagara has been a shelf queen because of these problems.  Timko used to have all kinds of gears, wonder if he has worked anything out.

I email Frank, will let you know if he has a solution.

Hi Guys,

 Some very good information here, i will take all of this information and see what route to take to get this resolved and make this engine run right again.

Marty, I'm so hoping that Lionel comes out with a Legacy version of this engine, as I also sold my original Niagara. Keeping my fingers crossed

Thanks,

Alex

Some years ago Singer had the same problem-a plastic drive gear that was weakened by petroleum grease. In this case, someone made brass gears as a replacement.

Dumb question - has anyone asked Lima if the make the gear in brass or stainless steel? I would think that with all the traffic on the topic we might be able to get them to make a small lot. I would need at least two but would take 4 or 5. Why? I have 2 CCII Niagara's.

I have to believe we could get a minimum order. Heck, I am willing to pay up if enough folks want to.

K

I hope you guys can come up with something on the gears.  Much easier to replace than a gear box.

Protocraft sells gearboxes, as does NWSL (I believe).  As you know, not a simple swap from the Lionel one...

I just reworked a drive-it sucked.  Shimming of the drive to frame for proper fit, spacers (custom machined) for axle/drive wheel, and quartering (that really sucked).  There were other issues, but those come to my head quickly.  

Colorful language was said many times during the project....

NOT impossible-but not for the faint of heart to say the least.

I think the small gear is 14 teeth and not 13.  It is a little hard to see in the pictures.

I think you could buy a spur gear from Stock Drive and carefully file the teeth to mate with the worm.  

Years ago, I made a spur gear for a 44 Ton GE loco.  Wasn't exactly precise, but it worked.  This was probably 40+ years ago.

It would help if you could make an estimate for the pitch diameter.  Gears are not specified by OD, but by pitch diameter.  Look it up on Internet.  It is likely that it is a metric gear even though it has a 0.125 bore.  The metric gears are specified by the tooth to tooth distance measured at the pitch diameter.

Once upon a time, in the far distant past, Stock Drive had pictures of gears in their catalogs.  You could take a gear and lay it on the picture and see if you could match the tooth profile.  You might ask SD if they have pictures?

servoguy posted:

I think the small gear is 14 teeth and not 13.  It is a little hard to see in the pictures.

I think you could buy a spur gear from Stock Drive and carefully file the teeth to mate with the worm.  

Years ago, I made a spur gear for a 44 Ton GE loco.  Wasn't exactly precise, but it worked.  This was probably 40+ years ago.

 

I think it's 13. You can count the stubs on the gear box I fixed. I ended up using the Lima gears.

servoguy posted:

I think the small gear is 14 teeth and not 13.  It is a little hard to see in the pictures.

I think you could buy a spur gear from Stock Drive and carefully file the teeth to mate with the worm.  

Years ago, I made a spur gear for a 44 Ton GE loco.  Wasn't exactly precise, but it worked.  This was probably 40+ years ago.

 

Like Chuck says its 13. I have a set of new ones I hope to match up with an actual replacement. Stock drive has a 13 tooth that might work but I haven't found a 19T there with a similar description. Before I start fabricating gears I will try and check all avenues for a ready made solution.

Pete

I think filing gears to mate will probably be an exercise in futility!  While I'm sure it can be done, that's bound to be a trial-and-error solution.  The best way would be brass gears, I doubt you'd want anything harder and brass should last a lot longer than plastic.

Just an update. I am fairly positive these gears are metric, .7 Modulus. The pitch diameter of the 13t gear is 9.1mm, the PD of the 19T gear is 13.3 mm. 

Stock Drive parts has these gears in acetal. I could not find any in metal that fit this description at SDP.

The search goes on. A trip to the hobby shop yielded a 13t 32 pitch gear which proved to be too big. Others like me new to this stuff, pitch is a term used in english measurement and modulus is used for metric gears. 

One other thing. These gears are clearly spur gears. The teeth are straight across. The 13t gear is used as a worm gear which compromises the contact area. Might be one of the reasons for the high failure rate.

Pete

Wow Alex,

Thanks for the heads up. It is really disappointing to learn that Lionel would allow a cheap gear system to be built into one of their top of the line Century Club engines. 

Question,

If I use a lubricant such as Red and Tacky in the lubricating holes under this engine will this cause deterioration of the non metal gears in this engine, or does applying lubricant in these areas only effect the axel bearings?

I have never opened up one of these engines, that is why I send them to you.

Merry Christmas and Best Wishes for a Happy New Yeay to you and the family.

Richard

Frank Timko indicated he might have some gears.  He said to send him the gears and he can look for a match.  My Niagara is not apart, so I don't have any around to send.  I suggest one of you who knows the specifics get in touch with him.  If he doesn't have them, he may be able to point you off to a source.

How about some of the idle gears from MTH diesels.  Not sure if it will fit the pin, but they are a stronger composite material and they have some small idle gears.  G

I wonder if with a complete sample if one of the post war parts vendors like Jeff Kane of The Train Tender would be able to identify it and get them.

Just a thought.

Mike

My order from Stock Drive Parts just arrived. I can tell you all for sure the Lionel gears are metric. Modulus .7, 3mm wide with a 3 mm diameter by 11 mm long center shaft. 13 and 19 teeth.

SDP only shows acetal AKA delrin gears in this size. Delrin is a much better material than nylon but I would preferred aluminum or mild steel. 

The SDP gears are not drop in replacements but will have to be reduced in width and sleeved.

I am only passing this information on. I have no interest in going into the gear replacement business.

Pete

Hello everyone 

I've decided to use the OEM parts from Lionel with the correct plastic safe grease. I'm sure the engines will perform very good this way. Once I install the parts and put the engines back together I will put them through a   Thorough test and post the results here. 

Thanks

Alex 

Interesting that Lio gave these parts up to Lima while retaining all the other parts for this engine.   Plastic is not necessarily bad in a drive shaft, but the material has to be correct.  Nylon is not a good choice for a gear though.  G