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Lionel CCII Niagara driveshaft

ChainsawCHARL1EChainsawCHARL1EOGR Forum Member

I own 2 Lionel CCII Niagaras. I was hoping to double-head them. They both experience recurring driveshaft failures because the set screws cannot be tightened enough to withstand the torque of the motor, even with a moderate consist. Lionel shop time is costing me a small fortune and I've heard horror stories about disassembling and reassembling these things at home. Is lock-tite the solution? Has anyone re-engineered this driveshaft to keep it from failing? I have many hours on one Niagara and a total of 10 feet on the second. Lionel has been extremely unhelpful. Thanks to anyone who can see me through this.

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N NortonOGR Forum Member

Check out this thread. 

 

https://ogrforum.com/t...l-nyc-niagara-owners

 

Since completing this I found an even less expensive solution.

 

 

I have purchased a pair of these and plan to couple them together. It should be closer to the original part in length and make a double U joint though the fix above works just fine and the plastic spider is replaced by metal.

 

Pete

Last edited by Norton
ChainsawCHARL1EChainsawCHARL1EOGR Forum Member

Thank-you for the advice, Pete. I ordered two U joints. I can't wait for them to arrive. Once I get the first Niagara fixed, I'll look for another pair for the second. 

 

Last month I chewed Lionel out for recommending that I replace the defective U joint with an identical part and told them they should show more interest in resolving issues with their flagship locomotives, especially those that are celebrating a century of the Lionel brand. I think that the Niagara is the best looking locomotive that Lionel ever made, minus the bad paint on the drivers. I've had the motherboards replaced on both units, but if they go again, they are getting replaced with ones from Crest (Aristocraft) Electronics and then I'll be running RC/Lithium-ion (goodbye TMCC, track power, and middle rail.)

 

Not only are these great looking locomotives, they also pull well, smoke heavily, and sound great. The speed is not where it should be for a dual purpose locomotive that should cruise at 90mph, but maybe the journals for drive axles could use roller bearings. Come to think of it, the pilot and trailing trucks and the centipede tender could use them as well.

 

I'll report back when I get this fixed.

texastraintexastrainOGR Forum Member

All,

 

  Thanks for the input on this problem, as I also have it with my Niagara and broken drive shaft.  Along with the driveshaft problem, and pitted paint on the drivers, mine also, front the start, has no sounds in forward, only reverse.  I have been told, on here, it is a faulty cherry switch.  I have not attempted a fix, yet, due to planning on correcting the driveshaft and faulty switch at same time.  One question I have, can the cherry switch be replaced with a common reed switch/magnet and function correctly?  I have search for schematics on the Niagara to perform these fixes (plus good to have on all motive power I have).  Any other difficulties operators have had with this Niagara.  I agree, it is a great looking engine, just needed better QC before released.

 

Take care, thanks and God bless..

 

Jesse

ChainsawCHARL1EChainsawCHARL1EOGR Forum Member

These U-joints can also be ordered from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ...00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

It looks like there's plenty to go around. Considering that one of the plastic Lionel U-joints broke when I first applied track power, I opted not to go with the solution in the other thread, which used an acytol U-joint. If I find a single piece stainless steel U-joint, I'll report back.

texastraintexastrainOGR Forum Member

Charlie,

 

Thanks a million.  As someone has said, us older fellas that always use to rebuild our car engines (darn I miss doing that!), and my own body, tranny/rearend work also, we can enjoy the efforts we do to "upgrade" our railroads where and whenever we can.  I have to admit, I am more comfortable getting my hands greasy and an occasional finger pinch between heavy metal, than I am doing searches in the realm of the Net.

 

Again, thanks lots and all the help everyone provides.

Take care and may God bless....

 

Jesse

ChainsawCHARL1EChainsawCHARL1EOGR Forum Member

U-joints from the Amazon source arrived today. They include 2 extra set screws per U-joint, but I was sent carbon steel set screws instead of the stainless steel set screws as pictured, so I asked the vendor so send me the proper set screws.

 

From what I can tell, the eBay vendor has only posted a tracking number, but has not mailed my other pair of U-joints. I will check the local hardware store for stainless set screws. I do not want to wait another 2 weeks to get started on this project because the drive train on my working Niagara failed again yesterday (this is the 3rd time) and now both Niagaras are down. I wish I had just bought a 3rd Rail, Williams, or MTH to begin with and never bothered with post-Chesterfield, Wellspring-Lionel LLC products. My LTI Mohawk is looks similar to the Niagara and is an amazing runner. Too bad Wellspring couldn't have followed in LTI's footsteps and produced a reliable Niagara with a Pullmor motor. The Pullmor is twice as powerful as the crappy Pitman!

 

I will post gory photos of the U-joint installation as it progresses. Please note that additional eBay vendors are selling these U-joints:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291410...e=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT .

 

I hope everyone is having fun at York. I'm not going.

 

-Charlie

texastraintexastrainOGR Forum Member

Charl1e,   well, I have decided to bite the bullet and ordered 4 of the 22mm length U-joints from the vendor on e-bay, per the link you posted on your comments today.

linking two of these together should be just right to connect the motor and gearing.

I have to agree with you, the Mohawk is a fine engine, the CCII engines I have are nice (exclude the Niagara) but do not hold up when compared to the CCI engines I have run.  My original CCI engines are shelf queens, do run the second hand purchased examples.  Plan on going through my Niagara with the cherry switch I purchased and the new u-joints when they arrive.  As with yourself, I too will post some pics of the installation upgrades.

 

Yep, I have never been to York, would love to go, but other obligations (work) seem to have precedence........

 

Jesse

N NortonOGR Forum Member
john Tomaselli posted:

I have a Niagara brand new in the box never run

question is:  does anyone have one of these that is problem free?

I think most ran fine out of the box. Some had flakey paint on the wheels. The engine deck will break if your track is uneven as it has support the weight of the engine if the front of the tender rises up. Use the deck for display but keep it down when running. The gears and driveshaft will probably last if you pull light loads, like less than 5 18" passenger cars. 

The problem occurs with heavy loads, then the gears can strip and the driveshaft break.

Pete

Last edited by Norton
P PSU1980OGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4,

Alex and I worked with Mike R for 1 year to get these gears built. I pulled mine out of the box, never used before that, added the milk car set and the gears completely failed.

Lionel used my second Niagara's for the test unit to design, develop and test the new gears. They are rock solid but you also need to change the drive shaft to get the best operation.

I had Alex change out the gears, replace the drive shaft which need modification as the one we use is too long. Alex has the tools for this. Their is a long thread on this that I started in November December of 2015.

Bottom line, if you plan to run the Niagara, change the gears and the drive shaft, you will be much happier.

Here is the link that started the conversation

https://ogrforum.com/t...d-drive-shaft?page=1

Kevin 

Last edited by PSU1980
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

"Bite your tongue" as my Uncle used to say Surfliner. Nah, I would never sell it, especially when I can improve it. Also, this engine has sentimental value to me. It was one of the last engines I had delivered to my local train store back in the day that I had actually bought my first O Scale engine as well, 18009 L3a Mohowk(which I will be upgrading this month, hopefully). 

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
RickO posted:

Alex M is your guy. He's done several niagaras. Driveshaft, gears, 4 chuffs as well as the superchuffer smoke upgrade:

https://ogrforum.com/t...ra-pulls-very-strong

Hey RickO, is there a video of any 4 chuffs around on here? I just popped a look on YouTube but all I could find was real life Shay's doing 3 and 6 chuffs. Guessing the Niagra is normally just 2 chuff?

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Wow Pete, that is awesome. I am definitely going to have to get that taken care of too. First I have to heal up. Sort of strained myself at the gym a few weeks back and am on light duty. Waiting to get another appointment with the doctor's office to see what they can tell me(again). Until I get cleared, not much heavy lifting I can do. Really bothersome for me(as I suppose anyone would be as well), but at least no hernia. After I'm cleared I guess I'll chat with Alex to get this sorted, see what all else can be put in there(cruise sounds good too, eh), smoking too. 

I am curious as to if Lionel will be popping out a new model of this engine as Ryan Kunkle(did I spell that right, hope so) was asked via live broadcast at Train World in March about NYC Hudson's, his reply was no Hudson's, but some NYC stuff coming not so far down the road. I guess see what comes.

N NortonOGR Forum Member

Dave, I would be surprised if Lionel did a Niagara, at least like the old one. Its much more complicated than most of the other diecast and even brass engines. If you haven't run yours already, you should. The Odyssey works. Mine does not lurch. I know a few folks who have them still with the plastic gears. They plan to wait until it breaks if it ever does.

Pete

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Unfortunately, mine has been sitting in storage. At the time my layout did not allow for O-72 so there was no where to run it. When that layout got dismantled, I sort of got stuck in other things and haven't been able to get anything to pen, then to wood. I am hoping that I can get some sort of temporary layout somewhere within this year or the next. Most likely there won't be time depending on settling my mom's estate and moving. See how long things take. I am a very patient person, but push is going to come to shove eventually like most things do.

Richard GonzalesRichard GonzalesOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

Chainsawchal1e,

Let Alex M. take care of your Niagaras. I have sent my Niagara to him twice. A few years ago he upgrade it to 4 chuffs  and improved the sound system in the tender. This year he replaced the gears ( I did not want to wait for them to fail), installed the metal U joint and  installed the Super chuffer. The gear replacement is not a job for the faint at heart. Alex sent me pictures of the replacement of the gears. He had to take the engine down to the bare frame and it looks as if the only thing that remained on the frame was the drivers.  As mentioned above the Niagara is one of the most difficult steam engines to take apart that Lionel made.

Here is a picture Alex took of my Niagara after it had been taken apart in order to replace the gears and U joint

NG Repair 1 all apart

Thanks,

Richard

 

 

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N NortonOGR Forum Member
SURFLINER posted:

I must be missing something here - but, why don't you guys bypass the Lionel problem(s) and buy an MTH model

Most everyone interested in this fix already have the engine. A new MTH Niagara is north of 1000 bucks, discounts can still be had. The parts needed to make the repair are around 10 bucks. 6 bucks for the gears and 2 x 2 bucks for the U joints. If you can do it yourself then its a no brainer. Many can and do. If you have to pay for someones labor than its a bit more but it still doesn't add up to 1000 bucks.

Pete

RickORickOOGR Forum Member
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:
SURFLINER posted:

I must be missing something here - but, why don't you guys bypass the Lionel problem(s) and buy an MTH model

Well, I said why I don't, can't speak for anyone else. Maybe we all like the model and just don't mind fixing it(or having it fixed). Who can say.

It's that whistle! IMO, one of Lionels best. It deserves a legacy incarnation.

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Norton posted:
SURFLINER posted:

I must be missing something here - but, why don't you guys bypass the Lionel problem(s) and buy an MTH model

Most everyone interested in this fix already have the engine. A new MTH Niagara is north of 1000 bucks, discounts can still be had. The parts needed to make the repair are around 10 bucks. 6 bucks for the gears and 2 x 2 bucks for the U joints. If you can do it yourself then its a no brainer. Many can and do. If you have to pay for someones labor than its a bit more but it still doesn't add up to 1000 bucks.

Pete

I would fix it myself if I was sure I could. But knowing that I can't even cut a straight line with a saw I will definitely have someone who knows what they are doing and has the respect of most everyone here.

I have no problem with MTH, but as Norton(Pete) said, we are fixing what we already have.

I also agree with RickO, definitely does deserves a Legacy incarnation. Will they make it, that is yet to be seen. There is a ton load of NYC possibilities to be built, but I think that there is a good possibility we will see a Niagra within a year or two.

Richard GonzalesRichard GonzalesOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

Yep Ricko, It's the whistle. The chuffing sounds were pretty good at 2 per rev, but when upgraded to 4 per rev the chuffing sounds are very realistic.

As far as appearance and leval of detail the two engines are essentially identical.

The MTH Niagara beats the as delivered smoke output of the Lionel Niagara hands down.

As for the whistle and chuffing sounds of the MTH Niagara they're MTH's "garden variety sounds."

Just my opinion.

Richard

 

 

N NortonOGR Forum Member
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I would fix it myself if I was sure I could. But knowing that I can't even cut a straight line with a saw I will definitely have someone who knows what they are doing and has the respect of most everyone here.

 

Dave, No problem. Its pretty daunting even for folks who fix trains professionally. I haven't spoken to any other repair guys that look forward to working on these engines.

Pete

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Norton posted:
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I would fix it myself if I was sure I could. But knowing that I can't even cut a straight line with a saw I will definitely have someone who knows what they are doing and has the respect of most everyone here.

 

Dave, No problem. Its pretty daunting even for folks who fix trains professionally. I haven't spoken to any other repair guys that look forward to working on these engines.

Pete

My late brother-in-law was a great tinkerer. He would have been able to take the engine apart, fix all the stuff, put it back together and then explain to me how easy/hard it was but he managed to get it to work. 

I really am thoroughly enjoying this topic even though I will have to wait to get mine fixed. I'm still waiting for my doctor's office to call me back on me still stuck on light duty and needing blood work or not.

I wonder how busy Alex M is and what the timetable would be for fixing? Of course, I guess it wouldn't hurt to ask him, but I would prefer if I was in okay condition before asking.

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