NO WIRE TO TRACKS

I do think this is the future of the hobby, but it will be very very slow to adopt.  Even though we wouldn't have to tear our our wiring to use a battery operated radio controlled train, we all have a lot of money invested in the current technology.  Retro fitting our current locomotives might not even be possible, and what about our lighted passenger cars, we would have to plug them all in also every time we are done operating.  

 

I do plan to explore this more with G scaled in a few years when I plan and build my outdoor layout.

Interesting post John, for the sake of discussion, heres a couple of counterpoints that come to mind.

 

Did they happen to mention the cost of the battery,this would likely kill the idea.

 

Secondly, I think a battery large enough to operate an o guage steamer pulling a train would likely compromise most if not all of the space in the tender that is currently used for the sound systems. Obviously smoke units will further tax the battery.

Case in point!

Smoke, sound, lights along with the motor all will create a load on the battery, so not only is battery duration important, so is recharge time.  Well, the prototype has to refuel also, doesn't it? 

 

One thing for sure, you don't want your battery pooping out in the middle of a tunnel.

 

No doubt battery technology will continue to improve and battery R/C train control will eventually appear in most, if not all the scales.  I see these little R/C helicopters and they are nothing short of wizardry.  I can't imagine model railroading being immune to wide spread battery operation in the future.

 

Rusty

"I'd show you my trains but the batteries are dead", said no Lionel operator ever.  

I'm sure at some point that battery powered trains will be a reality, after all the inexpensive plastic G-scale stuff runs that way, and has a following, however small.

 

Having quite a bit of experience with Lithium battery technology, I can say with some degree of confidence that there's no way you're going to be running a typical O-gauge locomotive with a reasonable sized load of cars for 4-5 hours on any reasonably sized battery, even the latest generation LiIon technology.  For sure, you'd have to have something like Charlie's boxcar full of batteries to even have a stab at that kind of time.  I'm assuming you'd want the normal things we've come to expect in the O-gauge world, sound, smoke, lights, etc.  I'm not even considering any added load of stuff like passenger cars.

 

We haven't even addressed the safety issues of Lithium batteries.  Remember, Boeing spent millions of dollars on their development, and they still managed to screw it up.  Do you really think the train manufacturers are going to spend that kind of money to develop their battery systems?  I've worked as a consultant in recent years at two different Lithium battery manufacturers, and I've watched the demonstrations first hand of what happens when you have a short circuit on the battery or your charging circuit fails and over charges the battery.  Model rocketry comes to mind trying to describe what happens!  When Lithium burns, there is no putting it out until it burns out.  I don't know about others, but I'm not keen on having large Lithium batteries charging unattended in my house.  I've already seen a laptop battery overheat while I was using it, and I'm not alone.  I'm not to the point that I trust any of the model train companies to implement this technology properly at the present time.

Speaking of modeling. heck- even the real railroads have to stop for servicing (or crew change) a lot sooner than 5 hours. I think the steamers- even the latest big-boys with monstrous tender tanks and coal hoppers had to refresh after only 40 miles or so -if only for water. the modern diesels- even with the minimal maintenance requirement and fueling stops still has to stop for crew changes much sooner than 5 hours I would imagine. I think in the old days, fresh motive power was readied in advance and switched onto the train at various locations. -maybe allowing time for recharging - makes for realistic rail operations when running models I would think.

 

and about those lith-ion bats? yes they need special care but hey- statistically, the numbers of incidents compared to the numbers in use? - think about it. Boeing must design for zero-fault tolerance. the lith ions benefit in airplanes is the energy density to weight ratio (check out Tesla Motors). not as much a concern for model railroading I would think.

 

I agree, at some point in time the likelihood of alternate form of power being put into use is inevitable. Maybe each car would have its own small battery distributing the power though the whole train with tethers running through all cars - just like the real thing! after all, prototypical model rail operations is a niche but growing right?

Well, statistically, 50 airplanes flying, each with two LiIon batteries, and three incidents, including two fires.  I don't know about others, but those statistics stink!

 

Remember, there have been a lot of battery incidents with electric cars, but since you can normally stop and get out, it hasn't been that newsworthy.  The Chevy Volt comes to mind.  There have been a number of incidents with the Toyota Prius as well.  Also, Boeing isn't the only aircraft maker that has had issues with Lithium batteries, Cessna Aircraft has an on-ground fire in 2011 and the FAA grounded the whole fleet until they replaced the batteries with older technology NiMh batteries.

 

I agree that we'll move forward, and some battery technology, even if it's not LiIon, will emerge.  I just don't think we're there yet.

Improved technology like high strength foam, brushless motors and Lipo. Lithium Polymer batteries have totally changed the Rc electric plane industry to the point that only very few "old timers" actually fly Gas and balsa/paper. Practically giving away the not to old Ni-Mh / geared brush Dc can technology. Radios have gone from 72Mh to 2.4GHz Add carbon fiber rods and they become practically indestructible, perform amazing in both stunt and scale flying. And nothing more dangerous than slamming a Li-PO battery into the ground. And for weight reasons they are encased in thin foil. If you crash hard, standard proceed is to quickly disconnect and drop in metal can and stay away. But it has not slowed down the acceptance because the improvements far outweigh the danger. One of my buddies has been running Brass G scale outdoors with remotes and packing them with Lead, Ni-Cad and thenNi-MH for years. Now he is converting them all to LI-PO and in trains you can protect them and yourself better. It is inevitable. Actually looking forward to the first few years when early adopters start unloading their "obsolete" stuff. Then it will get rare and hard to find and expensive again. Even real trains evolved, and may some day be obsolete and gone. Future archeologists/ scientists finding Lionel track will be debating for years whether or not real trains used the 3rd rail and then will need to rewrite their history books when they figure it out. There is no guarantee that digital records will actually survive. Look what happens to old magnetic tape, floppy discs etc. And something will replace Li-Po batteries. The real debate is will the next generations even consider playing/modeling with obsolete technology a worthwhile and enjoyable pursuit. I hope but will not be around to find out. Fred

When this all comes to pass we can all use our new ZW-Ls for charging transformers hooked to stub charging sidings. No charge port needed.  

Ron

NO WIRE TO TRACKS

 

 

Quick recharges. Durable for decades. Proven technology!

Unless they were using the 302 "plunge battery", 370 wet cell or 301 dry cells...

As usual, Ace has the perfect solution!

I bought a manual to convert a G scale MTH F-3 to battery power and with DCS remote control. Using a 5500 Ni-MH battery, gutting a TIU and installed everything in a boxcar. I did it and it runs for hours. This would never fit in a O scale boxcar till they make a smaller version of the TIU with a single channel and a smaller version of the battery but I can see this coming to be.

Dan

First, here is a video of the Tam Valley Depot DRS-1 components in use in HO scale:

 

 

Next: Here is my own DRS-1 install in a scratchbuilt brass N&W 4-8-0.

 

And, finally, here is a Red Caboose GP-9 with an S-CAB system installed. In all of these examples, there is no power on the rails. All power comes from a LiPo battery installed inside the locomotive.

 

If you are interested in RC/Battery operation drop by the OST Dead Rail Forum and join the conversations here: Dead Rail Society

When you add lights, sound, and smoke and 20-25 cars, how long will they run at that point?

All irrelevant points for my prototype, the Abingdon branch of the N&W circa 1958-1968. Two 4-8-0s or two GP-9s. Max of 6 car trains. No lights in freight cars. No smoke units in 2-rail trains. I've already run a 3-hour op session and did not deplete the batteries.

 

As for LiPo safety, it's how you use the battery that determines whether or not it is safe. I never discharge more than 1C even though I use a 25C battery. 

 

I will also mention that beside my own Dead Rail Forum at OST, there is a Tam Valley Yahoo group, and S-CAB Yahoo group and a full BBS called Free Rails. Check them all out for the latest info on RC/Batt/DCC ops.

Keep in mind this appears to be the power of choice in model airplanes. That whine of the small gasoline motor is gone.   There is a small group that flies often at the park where I bike. Interestingly there appears to be two power sources, one for control, and one for main propulsion.  Biggest issue seems to be weight distribution.  Most are recharging a second power source from their car battery as they fly. No 110v electric where they fly.   The group asked the county parks management for an asphalt landing strip.   I have stopped and talked a couple of times, very much a group like model railroads, with out the rails.   My foggy head would think a  model train on very good track would only be overcoming friction.  To watch these guys fly, there is some serious power consumption on steep climbs and some of the maneuvers.

 

Another issue, as with all the cordless tools we now own, is battery disposal.  IMO they should be properly recycled.

 

So if you seriously are going this way, the technology is there a couple of pages over in the hobby catalog/website.

Maybe it would be helpful if those in the know would post the electrical requirements of smoke units, sound boards and lights as a starting point for battery size.

 

Steve

Not to mention some real figures on battery capacity as well as the actual operating conditions for these hours long sessions.

If you only have one locomotive and one battery that could be a problem

There's also the costs associated with tossing my 40+ locomotives and replacing them with new stuff.

John here is a link to a high end battery.   appears to be a lot of power for quite some time.  More than likely this would fit in a box car.  I picked this from the Tower Hobby website because it was 18 volts DC.


2.5 amps @ 18.5 volts for 1 hr. ????

Dimensions: 5.43 x 1.85 x 1.18" (138 x 47 x 30mm) Most likely would fit a box car.

Somehow, I don't see a 47 watt battery running my trains for long enough to make me happy.  Sitting on the track not moving and no smoke, I see about .8 amps from the transformer, moving with smoke, sound, and 20 boxcars, I'm seeing a bit short of 3 amps.  Sounds like realistically, I might get an hour out of it.

 

Here is a warning link about Li-Po batteries.  Interesting issue added to the mix. 

Well, the costs associated with changing to the technology haven't really been mentioned.  If I need two $100+ batteries, not to mention totally new electronics and control systems, suddenly this is not looking all that attractive.

 

Anyone that has been following the commercial aircraft usage of these batteries should be well aware that they're not your Grandpa's D-cell batteries!  This is a whole new breed of battery, and has to be handled in a different manner.

Thinking along the same line, nothing is ever simple.  The Boeing 787 Dreamliner has serious battery issues and there have been hybrid/electric issues, most noted, with the Chevy Volt and it's battery.  I'm assuming Li-Po batteries because of weight and size are involved in a lot of this technology.  Not always as simple as is sounds.  The warning link above needs to be read.  My foggy head remembers Lithium demonstrations, that were done commonly as part of High School Chemistry class.

Li-Po Batteries warning   Thank you, John 

Mike CT

I only wish that the displays I've seen were something that I could publish, it would cast a whole new light on the Lithium battery discussion.  When these things go, they really GO!  You have to see it to understand the kind of problems you can have mishandling this technology!  The test videos I've watched are awe-inspiring, the potential for destruction is immense.

 

However, I'm still not convinced that it makes sense for most train buffs to suddenly consider battery powered trains anyway.

gunrunner,

   I agree 100%, the problem with having a battery operated train, even with remote

control is the very limited running time.  Now if they ever invent a real photo cell that delivers immediate useful enery, that will change everything, until then however our train hobby will not change much, transformers will not got out of use any time soom, remote control however will continue to develop.

PCRR/Dave

 

This thread is kind of funny.  We have all been through this cycle before.  Many of my tools are 18 volt lithium ion.  They are durable and powerful, but it took me a while to change over because I owned alot of Ni-Cad batteries. Of course no one is going to want to throw away a bunch of expensive locomotives.  How did all of the members of clubs feel when their years of careful wiring were more or less made unnecessary by digital control? Comparing the Boeing problems to a model railroad application is a little strange to me though.  I think the fact that R/C planes are doing well with them is more to the point.  I could easily see a system where locomotives had removable and interchangeable rechargeable batteries, perhaps with a second battery in the first car for accessories.  Why fight it?  It's all optional.

Filmcarp,

   I believe you are taking this wrong, nobody is actually fighting it, it would need to be more fully developed and function properly for actual usage, to be accepted on a wider basis, nobody is fighting technology, it's actual usage that is stopping battery operated trains from becoming more popular.  However having a charging station, like the tools do, with 6 or 8 quickly rechargable batteries, with powerful long lasting batteries, small enough to quickly inter change in say a tender would actually be a big leap in technology and would definitely be a sellable commodity,

especially with remote control.

PCRR/Dave

 

We worked on project where the LI-PO batteries were being considered as power supply, after a close review of failure rates caused by possible consumer misuse, an alternate supply was used. Remember deep down inside model trains are a child's toy, designed and marketed to children (even full scale stuff says 14+), thus the rules for consumer protection are different than say for power tools, and the underwriters at whomever is providing the liability coverage are also going to give these a good long look before pricing out the 10's of millions in coverage needed for this product line.

 

John is spot on, when these go bad they really go bad. There is a huge energy release in a very short period of time, think bad to high school chemistry class, that is generally not a good thing. Those that are using these without consideration for the power they contain my find themselves in serious trouble. I would not want them charging unattended in the house, and sure as heck would not let my kids play with a toy powered by them.

 

Good luck to RC guys, reads like they are asking for someone to get hurt.

 

Once a billion dollar company as worked out the bugs we will see them in trains, but it might be a long wait.

 

 

 

 

I'm all for the concept, it's the current state of the art that I question.  Having been involved for years first hand with Lithium battery technology, I don't think it's ready for this market.  I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but I doubt I'll be trading in my Legacy and DCS locomotives any time soon on battery powered models.

 

I agree with Dave, I don't view this as "fighting" the idea, simply reporting the current state of the technology.  In a year or two, the landscape could change, battery technology is one of the hottest research areas right now.

 

Let me propose a little experiment for you folks that are advocates of the current Lithium battery technology.  Simply short the outputs of the fully charged battery and see what happens.  I suggest you stand back...

 

Additional information. Li-Po (Lithium Polymer) I believe to be different from Lithium Ion.  Some of the applications are Cell phone, cameras, and laptop computers. 

Not to play devils advicate but battery operations for model RR does have a place in the G scale world where track connectivity is a problem. I still wouldn't use Li-Po, I am using Ni-Mh because of the dangers. I won't be changing my O stuff over for the cost reasons.

I was a radio operator in the corp when the Lithium tech became available and the demonstration of the destuctive power of a 24v unit was most impressive.