Non MTH command boards and DCS

Oh, let me add that I've dropped the thought of DCC for the above engine roster since I have the full DCS remote system and don't want to replace that with something else.

Well, you have DCS (from MTH only), or ERR TMCC (from Lionel).  If you don't go that way, you are out of options, given that you want to control them from the DCS remote.

To control TMCC locomotives, you'll need at least a TMCC command base in addition the full DCS system.

John, I would add the Lionel adaptor to my MTH system if need be...if I went with TMCC boards of any type...I get the impression that the ERR boards are more Lionel based than MTH. I'm hoping someone chimes in who's got both the ERR boards and using MTH to control them and they're thoughts.

MTH proto2 boards are scarcer than hen's teeth, otherwise I'd be going that route...eveywhere I've looked it's "out of stock" and I'm sure there's a long line of folks already waiting to get theirs...still. 

I would recommend checking with GGG here on the boards. He is an MTH authorized tech and he had some PS-2 boards available. I had him install two boards...one in a PS-1 diesel and another in a PS-2 steamer that had gotten fried. He is very reasonable, does great work, and gets it done quickly. I highly recommend him.

Rick

I have the full DCS system and the Lionel base attached. The only TMCC engine I have so far is a Lionel alco with the electric railroad mini commander installed by me and it works great. I can control the alco and my PS2 engines on the same track with the same remote with no problems. 

Bob,

If you're looking for some PS2 steam kits, check here:

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com...it-p/mth-50-1901.htm

They usually have the diesel kits too, but are out at this time it seems.

You can always upgrade using the ERR Cruise Commander kit and they also sell a Railsounds 4 kit, no flywheel needed.  The sound kits seem to be hard to find right now, at least for the type of diesel I'm looking to upgrade (E7).

Model Train Stuff (MB Klein) also sells the ERR kits, search for "Electric RR".

ERR boards are clearly Lionel based, they use the Lionel R2LC TMCC receiver and the Lionel RailSounds boards for sound generation.  If you really want PS/2, MTH is the only game in town.

Join the MTH RR Club, and eventually you'll be able to get PS/2 kits for $150, it just takes time for them to stock them.

If you want ERR stuff, check with Boxcar Bill on the forum here, he has good prices.

I have MTH and Lionel running in command mode on my layout. TIU and command base. I did an upgrade on the lionel I bought from forum member boxcar Bill, his store is mttponline.com. Member GGG is a MTH dealer/Tech and can get you the PS2 boards and is a fantastic source of information. I like the MTH system better but you need flywheel motors in the lionel stuff to use the PS2 kits. Good Luck.

Dan

There's one fly in the ointment regarding ERR boards. In addition to the TMCC Command base and connecting cable, you'll need a CAB-1 controller at least once during each conversion--there is a configuration step before setting the engine ID number that determines whether the board is a steam or diesel board, and it can only be done with a CAB-1 button that is currently not emulated on a DCS controller.

Quoted from "Using DCS to Operate the Mini Commander" link on the Electric RR Co's 'Manuals' page:

"The Mini Commander series of products may be operated with the DCS remote system available from MTH electric Trains.  The "class", or address type, must be set to ENG, with the ID number between 1 and 99.  Furthermore, at this time the configuration of the Mini Commander must be done with the TMCC Cab-1 Remote.  This guide is applicable to version 2.0C firmware.  Previous to 2.0C, the throttle operation is restricted to 100 speed steps."

I was waiting for Lionel to release the CAB-1L before seeking out these upgrade boards, but got lucky and found a complete CAB-1 and Base combo at a recent show.

---PCJ

Did you have to use a lionel controller to program that board?

I have 3 MTH engines- 1 whistle only/2 proto1s, 1 lionel pulmore GP9, 1 K-line steamer, and 2 RMT Beefs and 1 Beep. I would like to see if I can "command control" all of these remotely on the same track using the DCS as the engine controller and have sound too.

Just curious as to why you bought a DCS system when none of your locomotives have DCS?  You cannot install a DCS conversion in the Lionel GP9 (not a DC can motor) or the RMT locos (no flywheels as far as I know). 

Currently, that is the case.  Hopefully, MTH will see fit to add the SET button to the DCS TMCC inventory in a future update.

Ah, found the ERR website and got it in faves, and yes, they do seem lionel biased as I've heard....great for the lionel guys..not so much for me.

PCJ, have you any of the ERR boards on your engines...are they all requiring the cab-1 for programming input or just the mini commander. From what I saw in the manuals section the sound commander has a sound board and commander board....I saw what you said about the mini commander board needing to be set by a cab-1, but there's no mention of that for the sound commander board except that the remote volume is controlled by a cab-1...they really don't mention too much for DCS compatitbility or adjustment...otherwise their instuctions are really well laid out...color me impressed by that alone!

They do have some neat stuff there...looks like the railsound commander is a stand alone sound/control unit, but maybe I'm reading that wrong. $99 isn't bad at all if it can do engine control and sound...they even have an electric engine board as well as steam and diesel...nice!

Ok, got into the examples section at ERR and they show a mini EX connected to a "TA Studios railsounds motherboard"...are there other sound options out there..anyone have this and can comment?

I'm just about to send them a question of what all that they have is compaitible with DCS...I'm sure they've been asked that before...but hopefully I can get some more feedback on thier system{s} while I wait.

Thanks for the valued input so far guys!

The ERR stuff is clearly Lionel TMCC based, if you're really looking for DCS and not TMCC, ERR is not the place to look.

The RailSounds Commander volume works fine from the DCS controller, FWIW.

None of this is really "compatible" with DCS, other than the fact that if you have a TMCC or Legacy Command Base, you can control TMCC locomotives from your DCS remote.

I think you need to define more clearly what operating environment you want to have, it appears you would like to stay strictly with DCS.  If so, the PS/2 upgrade kits are your only option for upgrading older locomotives to DCS control.

Hmm, a good question. I found that the proto1 engines could be sound controlled and assumed...yup...that they could be command comtrolled as well- nope...only proto2 on.

You are correct about the pulmore lionels and RMTs...no flywheels on the RMTs and AC power normally on the pulmore- though said pulmore "can" and be ran on DC. That's when I started seeing comments on the forum about ERR's boards being able to control AC engines and non flywheel DC engines that my curiousity got peaked.   

John, Well, if I did have the needed lionel add on base, then they would be compatible...my question is how much...this could very well encompass a dedicated thread about the two entities...lionel and DCS... and how well they do or don't play well together, for all to compare, see or work out....this could also be a lucrative niche market for someone to drop in and make a solution for both parties...or mostly DCS followers. Had I the knowledge I'd try it for us all....

 To answer your last statement, yes, I would like to stay DCS controlled, at this moment in time, and try to find a workable solution for my engines. I,myself, can live without the doppler and other like extended features like engine hours and scale miles ran...I'm more into the simplistic multiple engine controll on one track and good sounds...I'd be happy with those two alone while using my DCS. Add I have no legacy engines now, and I don't readily ever see spending much more than $300 on a new engine with command control of any kind and full sounds{not just bell/horn/whistle}.

Simply out of curiousity, what controll system{s} do you run?

You probably already know all of this, but hopefully if not, this will clarify:

1) The Lionel System, either TMCC or Legacy, can only control Lionel TMCC or Legacy   boards and not any MTH boards.

2) TMCC is the older control system consisting of a Cab-1 Controller and a Command Base with cables. 

3) Legacy is the newer system with many additional advanced features. Lot of neat options out there (unfortunately, many out of my price range).

4) DCS is MTH's system that operates PS2 and PS3 boards on command. DCS can control Lionel Legacy, Lionel TMCC, and engines with TMCC upgraded (such as the ERR boards)

5) For DCS to do that, you also must have at the minimum the Lionel Cab-1 and the Command Base plus an additional cable to connect to the TIU.

6) Each upgrade (whether upgrading a proto sound 1 to proto sound 2 or upgrading using the ERR boards on non-MTH engines) will cost a couple of hundred dollars each. You can do your own install, but one had best know what they are doing since you can fry a board quickly and be out that money with no warranty). 

7) There use to be another company called TAS (Trains America Studios) that had boards available for non-fly wheel engines. I used those to make two post-war engines command ready through TMCC. They are no longer in business and the top person of that company is now in charge of the Lionel repair division, Mike Reagan.

8) My advice, for what is worth, since you already have the DCS system (which does run both command and conventional) is to stick with that and get a hold of GGG here on the boards (you can look his e-mail address on the search option here) and see if he has any boards available for your Protosound 1 engines to upgrade. Play around with that for awhile and then see if it is worth it to buy the other control system and the upgrade boards to do command with those. In the meantime, you might find other PS2 engines on the buy-sell forum here to add to your collection. No matter what, it will be an investment.

Hope this helps.

Rick

Sticking strictly with DCS control, you're pretty limited to the PS/2 upgrade kit.

One large downside of only DCS is MTH has no solution for really small operating units like speeders, or even the RMT BEEP.  The PS/2 upgrade kit simply doesn't fit, and/or many don't have flywheels.

Small engines that lack room are a hinderance, but if there's enough room on an engine, the can motor can be switched out for a dual shaft motor and a flywheel added...even a thin one at .125 thick{1/8"} "should" give enough read for the tape tach. To go proto2 on an RMT would require the use of a dummy engine for the board along with a tether...or a dedicated boxcar too as a stash source.

I'm not against MTH, don't get me wrong, but I really feel they've dropped the ball for those of us who want to swap into the more advanced 2 board....shows me they don't care enough about they're old clients to keep those in regular demand, and I feel it would be a decent sized market for them too to suport the money to do that...what do I know though....I'm just looking for a solution that's actually "there"...know what I mean?   

Rick, wow, that was very informative...I knew MTH could control Lionel, but didn't know it wasn't the other way around...nice to know I have the more adaptive system!

Thank you for the needed input!

Just so everyone knows, I sent off an email to ERR and asked what they had that was usable with a "DCS only" system...I await a favorable responce - or something. Either way, I'll report back to here with what they say..if all else fails I and my thread can be a learnig tool for future DCS adaptability questions thru current reading or a future search.

I am getting the feeling that you are just getting back into the hobby much as I did about 7 years ago. To understand the history between the two companies opens a can of worms that still festers in many much the same way that the carry-overs from the Civil War still exist in some parts today. Many folks will have Lionel only because of it, others MTH only. It helps also to understand why there is no standardized system in O-Gauge. And, I don't think there will be.

To solve that problem, many on the forum have both systems. They can both run on the same tracks simultaneously since they are controlled in different manners. I chose the DCS/TMCC Cab-1-Command Base as it was what I could afford. I was happy at that time since I could put TAS electronics in my Lionel post-war 682, 736, and a Lionel Dockside switcher. I also have a Lionmaster Challenger. I can run them with my Cab-1 or hook it up to allow my DCS remote to control the engines. All of my other engines are MTH. So, DCS boards are available through some of the authorized techs. To get your PS1 engines up and running on command, contact one of them. 

Most on these boards deal with ERR for some of their TMCC-like upgrades (again it seems like they are the "only game in town" for that), but again as John said, they will do nothing for you with the MTH DCS system only. 

Rick

I'm not against MTH, don't get me wrong, but I really feel they've dropped the ball for those of us who want to swap into the more advanced 2 board....shows me they don't care enough about they're old clients to keep those in regular demand, and I feel it would be a decent sized market for them too to suport the money to do that...what do I know though....I'm just looking for a solution that's actually "there"...know what I mean?   

A lot of the problem, as it was with the TMCC CAB-1, is that some of the crucial electronic components that go into them go out of production and no replacements are available. While disappointing (especially in the case of the CAB-1), I have a hard time labeling it negligence when their electronics supplier tells you out of the blue "Part X is being EOL'ed (end-of-life) by the manufacturer", and no equivalent/compatible components are left on the market.

---PCJ 

This is how it works:

(ignore the card below the TIU--it refers to the cord connecting a Z-1000 to the TIU)

TMCC's control codes were made public, which allowed MTH to design it's TIU to send those codes through its serial port to a connected Command Base. TMCC/Legacy has no such capability, and even if they did, it would be a moot point as MTH's control codes are proprietary (as are Legacy's).

With the arrangement in the above photo, you can control TMCC locomotives (and Legacy--but only at the TMCC level) using a DCS system.

---PCJ

Well, I think you overstate the case.   You still have to have the Lionel system, the one thing you have is the capability to control TMCC locomotives through the DCS remote if you have the Lionel TMCC system.

As previously stated, the reason that is possible is the TMCC commands are documented and in the public domain, while MTH has kept it's command structure proprietary.  Lionel has also kept the Legacy commands proprietary, so the DCS remote has no capability to access Legacy specific features.

I can save you the wait, nothing.

Ok, "only" was a bad term and I should have known better....adding a lionel base unit to the equasion is the start of it all...then the issue with engine control. Sorry.

Ok, that's a bit different.

Other than initial initialization, you can run ERR stuff that is addressed and an engine, but not the accessory modules that are addressed as accessories.

Ok, 2nd reply back from ken at ERR...nice guy!

1st was that nothing was DCS only and that I'd need a lionel base added.

2nd was the answer to my question of whether the railsound commander was a stand alone unit as I had read into it...saw in the installation guide that it had a sound unit and command unit, and wondered if those came as the whole sound/control package for $100- Nope. I guess it can be added to an existing TMCC engine that already has control but no sound...for me I'd need control and sound for my non command engines. He also went on to state that nothing they had could be added to the MTH board{knew that} for command or sound. 

So, I'd need an AC, DC or cruise commander control board, then the sound addition board as well. Not too shabby for $170ish for both.

The plus for the ERR is that no tach tape is needed, but overall options thru the DCS would be less than from a proto2 boards capability{I could live with that}

The plus for new proto2 boards is all the bells and whistles, but would have to add flywheels/tach tape.

Everything seems to be a trade off of some kind isn't it?

Both cost roughly the same, though the proto2 boards could be had for less, that could be offset by the possible addition of needed flywheels and motor with shafts to accomodate them.

I'll start hunting around for a lionel base unit and cable...then pick a willing candidate engine to play with..the Beep is too confined as I recall, but the Beefs are a possible entry since they lack flywheels...

You can easily put a MiniCommander in a BEEP, but cramming the RailSounds Commander in might be a trick.  I have a BANG that I might be able to get the MiniCommander and RailSounds Commander into.

The plus with ERR is they have small boards for little stuff.  I've put them into the little Speeder, the Track Inspection Truck, and the Tie-Jector, it's fun having stuff like that command controlled.

John, I just came back from the ERR site and could use some clarification.

What's the difference between the commander and the cruise? I get the AC and DC versions and the mini, but I don't read any difference between the cruise and reg commander.

The huge difference is cruise control.  I don't use anything but the Cruise Commander in anything that it'll fit in that has a DC motor.  When you have multiple trains running, having them run at a constant speed is a huge plus.  FWIW, MTH PS2/3 and Lionel Legacy include cruise control as a standard feature, except the few Legacy models with AC motors.

The Commander is their generic term for the control boards with the other designations specifying the particular product. I have done a few of the ERR upgrades and they are pretty slick, fairly straight forward and simple and not a whole lot to them. If you want sound you need to add the Railsound commander to your motor control commander.

As for control, you can control Lionel with DCS and it works but you still need the Lionel system. I use them both and have several complete systems for each on the workbench, test layout and the big layout. They both have their pros and cons. For me the DCS, once it is set up, it is very simple to use but  keep in mind that it can be quite complicated to set u, especially on a large layout. My biggest con for DCS is that it spits back error codes on a regular basis and it drives me crazy. I even had an ocassion where the loco was not getting signals at all and I did not realize that it was 30 on the speed dial, then suddenly and without warning, the loco, which was sitting on the turntable bridge, took off like a bat outa ****. Nothing like having a $1400 challenger going full steam for the floor to get you moving like a bat outa ****. PS-2 upgrades are a life sentence to install. I have yet to have one take less than 5 hours and then you are pretty much limited to MTH locos, it is possible to isntall them in other locos with flywheel motors but the issue I have had is the gear ratios are different for the non MTH locos and it is so hard to get a chuff rate to match the sound and I still have one that i did that has been nothing but trouble from the the start and I still cant get it working right.( I am an MTH certified repair tech so i have a little knowledge on these). One nice thing about DCS is, if you wire your layout for block control you can use a variable channel to control conventional trains right out of the box, works pretty slick but you have to be able to isolate the trains from the one track that you are controlling voltage to.

The Lionel ERR upgrades (ERR is actually a division of Lionel) are pretty slick and there are a lot of options for them. I have installed a few and they take 1 to 2 hours just to put in the commander and there is not a lot extra nonsense to wire through the loco like MTH has with all the marker lights and number boards and such, add on to that that you can get some of the upgrades for around half the price without sound and you cant beat it. I dont need sound in all of my engines but I do need to have command in them being that my layout is not setup to run conventional locos. so cutting the time and the money out makes the ERR upgrades much more attractive. There are options from ERR that you can pretty much add command to any accessory or locomotive you chose

The Lionel Legacy systems works very well and installation is quick and painless just one wire to the outside rails on the layout and youre good to go. It is not as simple and intuitive to use as the DCS is and you have to know either the locos address or dial them in by road number to get command of the engine but it works flawlessly every time.

You cant pigeon hole yourself into one system or the other unless you only intend to run one manufacturers locos. feel free to email me and pick my brain about any of the command stuff

FYI, the Sound Commander has been out of the lineup for several years, the only sound option from ERR now the RailSounds Commander.  I wish they'd bring back a smaller sound option, I'd like to add sound to some smaller locomotives.

Matt, mine spits back mutliple "track error" too and I was only running an oval of 0-36 with 1 10" straight each side. Track was cleaned and still got that alot....my 0-8-0 did th same thing...sat there and then suddenly didn't!- flew right off the 1st curve onto the carpet!

You provided me a major epiphony...I never thought about "other brands" and gearing when adding a proto2. I suppose a read wheel could be set up though or magnets on the driver.

John, from what I can tell, the cruise adds slow smooth running to the list...I'd like that!

I'm hunting on ebay for base and cab1 combos...we'll try this on the cheap so I've got more for the engines-lol.

I just did a Williams class J that took me like 5 hours and when I got done I could not get the chuff rate quite right. It just has an odd sound because they don't sync up exactly the way they should despite playing with all the chuff rates. Just kinda weird. Not the biggest issue ive had but still bugs me. Now I avoid any locos that do not have command from the factory. Ive got enough on my plate with customer repairs and my layout, i don't particularly want to spend the time and money on upgrading if i can just buy ti that way. Not that im made of money but I can honestly say i have much more important things that need doing

Look in the for-sale forum, there's one listed there right now!

You can print up a custom tape for DCS and get the speed and chuff rate adjusted to your liking.