O27 track issue - Odd

Lunch 2000,

   Your tack is pretty old, clean it with some CRC sprayed on a soft cloth, and I suggest you use a few more lock ons, with some brand new wiring, also clean your roller contacts on your engine, clean it with some CRC also and use a little Red & Tacky on her, clean the roller contacts on your other lighted rolling stock, like your Caboose, then give it a try again, make sure your transformer is working correctly, and that the wiring is new and connected properly.

Have fun!

PCRR/Dave

check the track pins, and where they go into the ends of the track, might be rusted.

Lunch2000:

 

Congrats on firing up that set to enjoy it with your kids!  Its a great idea.  That track should be easily reconditioned.  Heck, many of us are using tubular O gauge track that's 70 years old or older with no trouble.  There are many different ideas among us here regarding the best way to clean track.  I use rubbing alcohol, some use stronger isopropol alcohol.  On its podcasts, Lionel officially recommends "citrus-based" cleaners.  All agree never to use steel wool on track as loose particles can work their way into the locomotive & cause trouble.  Keep us posted... & maybe post some photos.   Most of all, ENJOY!!! 

Ditto - check the pins - as the train moves around the track, the stresses on the connections may change leading to inconsistent conductivity leading to the erratic performance of the locomotive and lighted rolling stock.

Ditto the track pins, make sure they're clean.  Also make sure they're not bent and loose; they should insert into the rail tubes good and tight, so the rail sections join together good and tight; not loose where there's noticeable wiggling in between the track sections.

I agree.  It's probably the pins.

 

When I was first starting out in three-rail O I bought a box of "no hope" O-31 track from under a table at a train show.  When I wanted to do a little trial setup the continuity was lousy so I used Caig DeoxIT D5 on the pins and inside the rails.  I had been using it for years on my electric guitar gear and pro sound equipment and it works just as well on my train stuff.  Pricey but well worth it.  I get it at Guitar Center.

 

Pete

 

 

Thanks for the quick replies, I will definitely check the pins as it was one of my suspicions. That being said I get the same issue if I'm on the section of the track that has the lock-on, so wouldn't that remove the pins from the equation somewhat?

Gentlemen,

   I took for granted he checked his pins and screwed his track down as he built his train layout, if he did not due this, pins and track movement could definitely be a major problem, especially with light 027 track.

PCRR/Dave

We are not at the layout stage yet, just running an oval on an old door, making sure it all works and getting any kinks in with the train or transformer worked out. Track is not tacked down at all. Transformer is the old Lionel dial type with a separate transformer (77 watts) I have plans to replace it later on once we start planning a more permanent layout.

I ran into this on my Christmas platform this year. I had to service a switch, and when I pulled it, the pins were rusty, but the track itself was clean. 

Then you need to check the rail base and the lockon for oxidation, along with the fahnstock clips of the lockon.  DeoxIT will help with that also, but best to clean first, then spray.

 

Pete

 

 

That's only a 40 watt output transformer.

I bought a pair of O27 track pliers on ebay that do a good job of re-crimping and reshaping the rail to hold the pins tight. It cost $16 and well worth it. As to power lockons, I am ditching them and soldering 18 gauge stranded wire directly to the bottom of my outside (neutral rail) and one to my center rail the carries the juice.

Ugh, I think we are into transformer issues....After spending about an hour cleaning a short section of track and cleaning the track pins, lock on, and power pickups I made 0 progress still really bad performance from the train and light up cars. I decided to test the transformer again by applying power from the wires directly to the power pickup wheels and the rollers. Now the train would run for a couple seconds and then stop, then start again for a few seconds and stop. When stopped the green light on the transformer would go out. I'm thinking a new transformer off ebay now..any thoughts? 

 

Lunch2000

I would buy a new Z-1000 transformer from a authorized dealer. It might be easier to buy all new Lionel fast truck with a power section.

Lunch:

All the focus so far has been on track or transformer but, you don't mention if you have actually serviced the engine.

If this engine has been packed away for 30 years, it should be disassembled and the motor, brushes and brush wells cleaned.  The bearings on the axles should also be oiled.

Curt

Correct focus has been on the track and transformer, and no the engine has not been serviced. Is this something that can be done at home? I'm a fairly hands on technical guy, can use a multi-meter, can solder , etc. Is there a service manual somewhere? I'm still leaning to the transformer however because I would expect the power/short indicator to stay lit if the train was crapping out, or is that wrong?

 

Thanks for all the advice people!

It may well turn out to be the transformer but, a dirty crudded up commutator face and dirty brushes and brush wells can cause an engine to run in fits and starts. 

After disassembly, use rubbing alcohol and a Q-tip for the initial cleaning of the commutator.  Use a toothpick to clean the gaps in the face and then a clean pencil eraser to polish the face.  Brushes should be removed and cleaned in rubbing alcohol and an alcohol soaked Q-tip used to clean the brush wells.

On the wheels, oil the axles at those wheels that don't have gears.

This is a bit of an over simplification but, it is a good start. 

Curt

Lunch2000,

You did not state your engine type. By your doing so,one or more members can "walk" you through the proper service techniques. Just as Curt has started to do.

 

God Bless,

"Pappy"

Thanks, As I started to poke around the web I realized that was missing from the thread. It's an 8662 steamer , transverse mounted motor.

 

 

John

 

Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't think the motor is mounted on the trucks. It's in the middle of the body, although it does look to be a can.  Transformer output (which came with the set) says it's AC. Am I missing something?

 

That's interesting; the only Lionel 8662 I know of is a GP9 with truck-mounted can motors that's part of the 6-1652 B&O freight set.

John

 

After some digging it appears you are correct, it is a DC motor. I got the model numbers mixed up its an 8633, DC motor with a rectifier mounted in the body (e unit). 

 

Lunch2000

That's it Rob, although the one I have has an air whistle tender. Which is odd, since nearly all the service manuals show an electronic unit.

One thing you also need to make sure to clean the drivers on the loco. crude buildup on the drivers will do this to.

 

Another thing to check is if the traction tire is still on the left rear driver. If it is missing, it will cause it to squat down on this driver not allowing the other drivers to make full contact to the rails. I had a MSS engine that ran erratic due to this. It is very similar to this engine.

"On the wheels, oil the axles at those wheels that don't have gears."

 

I don't understand this.  I would recommend oiling all of the axle bearings.  Pony truck, drivers, and trailing truck.  Also the tender and the cars.  Use motor oil.  Works well, cheap, and lasts forever.  If it rotates or slides, oil it.

 

Here is the easy way to get the track sections to stay together and to make good contacts.  Splay the pins so there is contact force between the pins and the inside of the joining rail.  Hold a section of track with the pins pointing away from you.  Where the pins are installed, bend the right rail to the right and the center rail to the left.  Bend the rail, not the pin.  Grab the rail with a pair of ordinary slip joint pliers and bend the rail so that the end of the pin is displaced about half of its diameter.  When you grab the rail, do not grab the last 1/8" of the rail with the pliers.  

 

Easiest way to clean the track is run the train.  I haven't used a ScotchBrite pad or wire wheel in the last many years.  You may have to set the E unit so the loco is in forward only mode until the track cleans up some.  I have cleaned some pretty bad looking track this way and in a few hours there is a very shiny stripe on the very top of the rails.  

 

Soldering wires to the rails is a good way to make sure the connections are good.  I recommend Marx lockons as they make better connections than the Lionel lockons, particularly of the track is corroded.  The Marx lockons are riveted together, so I recommend soldering the rivets to make a good connection.  Solder both the top and bottom of the rivet.  

Did you clean the wheels well?  I looked above but saw nothing that says so.  Wheels get as dirty as rollers and cleaning those and not the wheels leaves things unacceptably dirty. 

There are two types of stuff that need to be cleaned off of the track and loco wheels:  Grease and oil and rust and corrosion.  Oil and grease are cleaned off with a solvent like isopropyl alcohol, and rust and corrosion is best cleaned off by running the train as I have already explained.  To clean grease and oil off of the track, I use about 3 paper towels folded up to make a pad which I attach to a gondola with rubber bands.  I then put some alcohol on the paper towels and run the car behind the loco.  Arrange the paper towels and so the rubber bands do not touch the rails.  Frequently change the towels to bring a clean area in contact with the rails.  The big advantage of this method is you get to run the train.  For me, this is a big plus.  No crawling around on the floor wiping the rails with a paper towel.  

If it's a transformer, I highly recommend buying a new and modern one.  And that's coming from a guy that's using old postwar transformers only. 

 

The newer ones have many things built in to use and protect modern electronics that if you want to go forward with the hobby you'll already have.  Maybe a little overkill upfront but will pay dividends down the road.

 

 

Gee, this sounds elaborate for a guy who likely has just the oval of track that came with the set.  I think wiping the track with alcohol-soaked paper towels is the easiest thing for the poster... even if it is on his hands & knees. Hopefully though, he has solved his problem & is enjoying the train with his kids... & maybe has even gone to his closest train/hobby store for more track & rolling stock!

So on the advice of many I cleaned and lubricated the engine. I also removed the front truck and using a Dremel mounted with soft brush cleaned all the wheels. I also disassembled and cleaned the gear box and applied fresh lubricant. You could immediately feel the difference in how it moved. However on the track it made no practical difference, fits and jerks the whole time, however I think we are down to the transformer. When the train is cutting in and out, the green power indicator is also flickering. Not the regular flash of a short indicator, but flickering in and out with the movement of the engine. I think the power supply might be bad and I'm getting the overload cut out? Would that make sense?

 

We are looking to do a layout using this train and some fresh track. I built a layout with this train when I was kid, and the kids want to build a layout and see this train run.

 

Thanks again for all the great advice.

 

Lunch2000