Old Lionel ZW Transformer

Take a look at these. They are what I use, but others may have a different choice.  

8 Amp circuit breaker push to reset 

Depending on the vintage ZW you have, the circuit breakers are part #VW-22 or Z-22 for early models, or #ZW-232 for the newer model. These are direct replacement units available from online parts dealers such as The Train Tender.

Larry

Daviddp posted:

I am using an old Lionel ZW transformer to run my MTH trains.  The engines have either Proto sound 2 or 3.  I am concerned because there is no circuit breaker.  Is there any type of circuit breaker I could purchase to alleviate any possible overload?  DEP

David;

I use two old ZW's to run strictly Lionel Legacy/TMCC. Like Ted above, I use external circuit breakers (although I use the 10 amp version). When I was first building my layout a couple of years ago, I was looking to protect my modern engine's electronics, and found one of Jim Barrett's wonderful Backshop videos (#8) which included a section on building a circuit breaker box. It was very clearly laid out, even for this techno-peasant. The segment is now available as an OGR Video on Demand for 99 cents!!! Here is a link ===> http://ogaugerr.com/vod-backshop/

This box has saved my bacon on numerous occasions.

Would people recommend an 8 amp or 10 amp breaker (or something else) for running two 2-motor postwar trains simultaneously (e.g., a 2343 and a FM Train Master) from the same ZW tap on the same large loop?

I agree that the equipment needs to be protected, but I also wouldn't want the breaker to trip due to the higher load.

Thanks.

Steven J. Serenska

Serenska posted:

Would people recommend an 8 amp or 10 amp breaker (or something else) for running two 2-motor postwar trains simultaneously (e.g., a 2343 and a FM Train Master) from the same ZW tap on the same large loop?

I agree that the equipment needs to be protected, but I also wouldn't want the breaker to trip due to the higher load.

Thanks.

Steven J. Serenska

 

Any additional load, e.g. Incandescent lighted passenger cars, accessories that draw current, switches, etc., etc?  Need to include those in the calculation if powered off the same source.  Others will chime in but 10A on each power source would be adequate for most in my opinion

Ideally a breaker or fuse should be as small as you can get away with. Blowing fuses is one way to dial the amp draw if you have tons.

Measuring your juice hogs under load and adding an amp or two would work too.

 5 to 10a on each track output is what I'd expect I'd use if I added extra to a ZW..

When deciding on external power protect, I think you should consider trip time. The problem with many thermal circuit breakers is that they can take a long time to trip.
That is why I like electromagnetic breakers, they trip instantly.
I think people have posted about electronic breakers that trip quickly. I am not familiar with them.

I'm surprised it hasn't come up yet, but given that you're running PS2/P3 equipment, you should also have some form of "spike" protection, i.e. a TVS installed in each engine, or at least at the power connection points along your track. There are many threads that discuss this ... just do a SEARCH on this forum for "TVS".

Plus 1 on the TVS.  Again this is the one I use but others may choose something different.  Place at connections around layout as GeoPeg describes.  I installed these on the terminals of my old Z xfrmr.  Also installed at head end of terminal block, and, at track solder connection on each drop. Cheap insurance.

I use AGC fuses (automotive glass cartridge) fuses.  Fast acting and inexpensive (have a whole bunch of old  surplus) and you can see when they blow.   That  along with TVS diodes, which I learned about on this forum, which has been a fantastic resource.

TedW posted:

Serenska posted:

Would people recommend an 8 amp or 10 amp breaker (or something else) for running two 2-motor postwar trains simultaneously (e.g., a 2343 and a FM Train Master) from the same ZW tap on the same large loop?

I agree that the equipment needs to be protected, but I also wouldn't want the breaker to trip due to the higher load.

Thanks.

Steven J. Serenska

 

Any additional load, e.g. Incandescent lighted passenger cars, accessories that draw current, switches, etc., etc?  Need to include those in the calculation if powered off the same source.  Others will chime in but 10A on each power source would be adequate for most in my opinion

TedW:

Yes, one of the two trains I mentioned would be a passenger car consist, if not both at times.  So that would add approximately 20 light bulbs, assuming 2 bulbs per car.  All my switches and accessories are independently powered from a fixed source, so that would be it: 4 postwar motors and 20 light bulbs on a single ZW tap.  

My seat-of-the-pants engineering (i.e., I'm not an EE) tells me that a 10amp breaker would do it, but I would very much like to be corrected if that's wrong.

I like CWB's idea of going with Postwar #91 circuit breakers, but those go for $10 each (on a good day) on eBay. If 10amps is the right size, these ones from Mouser (which I found based on the one you posted above) look pretty good for an under-table solution.  

Thanks.

Steven J. Serenska

I think ten dollars for a Postwar Lionel #91 breaker would be a bargain!

Serenska posted:

TedW posted:

Serenska posted:

Would people recommend an 8 amp or 10 amp breaker (or something else) for running two 2-motor postwar trains simultaneously (e.g., a 2343 and a FM Train Master) from the same ZW tap on the same large loop?

I agree that the equipment needs to be protected, but I also wouldn't want the breaker to trip due to the higher load.

Thanks.

Steven J. Serenska

 

Any additional load, e.g. Incandescent lighted passenger cars, accessories that draw current, switches, etc., etc?  Need to include those in the calculation if powered off the same source.  Others will chime in but 10A on each power source would be adequate for most in my opinion

TedW:

Yes, one of the two trains I mentioned would be a passenger car consist, if not both at times.  So that would add approximately 20 light bulbs, assuming 2 bulbs per car.  All my switches and accessories are independently powered from a fixed source, so that would be it: 4 postwar motors and 20 light bulbs on a single ZW tap.  

My seat-of-the-pants engineering (i.e., I'm not an EE) tells me that a 10amp breaker would do it, but I would very much like to be corrected if that's wrong.

I like CWB's idea of going with Postwar #91 circuit breakers, but those go for $10 each (on a good day) on eBay. If 10amps is the right size, these ones from Mouser (which I found based on the one you posted above) look pretty good for an under-table solution.  

Thanks.

Steven J. Serenska

Do you have a multi meter with which to check the amperage draw when both trains are running the passenger consists?  I hope others would chime in, but you could be pushing the 10 amps at peak with that setup.  I'm just not sure.  TW

Steve:

Unlike the original poster it sounds like you're only running post-war equipment so you shouldn't be worried about damaging any sensitive electronics.  However, lightning or power company voltage spikes can still present a problem and your ZW's original internal breaker may someday fail so an external breaker would still be prudent. 

According to page 23 in the attached 1965 Lionel Operating Manual your ZW was designed to supply a total load of 12 amps continuously without overheating.  And that means the total load from all 4 circuits combined and not a load of 12 amps on each circuit individually.  That page also says that each 2-motor diesel with 2 headlights draws 2.9 amps so with two of them you are almost up to 5 amps before you add any additional loads that are connected to any of the other terminals of the ZW.  It also says that a 5-car passenger consist with two lights per car will draw 2 amps which means that ONE 5-car passenger train pulled by a double-motor diesel with 2 headlights will draw almost 5 amps.  When you are running two of them at once you are almost at 10 amps.

You say you have no other loads connected to that transformer so if your total normal max load is 9.8 amps there would probably be times under certain operating conditions (i.e. higher speeds) that you may possibly draw more than 10 amps which would trip a 10-amp breaker and shut down your track unnecessarily.  So you should be safe with a 12-amp breaker as that was what your transformer was designed for.

Bill (an old EE)

WftTrains posted:

Steve:

Unlike the original poster it sounds like you're only running post-war equipment so you shouldn't be worried about damaging any sensitive electronics.  However, lightning or power company voltage spikes can still present a problem and your ZW's original internal breaker may someday fail so an external breaker would still be prudent. 

According to page 23 in the attached 1965 Lionel Operating Manual your ZW was designed to supply a total load of 12 amps continuously without overheating.  And that means the total load from all 4 circuits combined and not a load of 12 amps on each circuit individually.  That page also says that each 2-motor diesel with 2 headlights draws 2.9 amps so with two of them you are almost up to 5 amps before you add any additional loads that are connected to any of the other terminals of the ZW.  It also says that a 5-car passenger consist with two lights per car will draw 2 amps which means that ONE 5-car passenger train pulled by a double-motor diesel with 2 headlights will draw almost 5 amps.  When you are running two of them at once you are almost at 10 amps.

You say you have no other loads connected to that transformer so if your total normal max load is 9.8 amps there would probably be times under certain operating conditions (i.e. higher speeds) that you may possibly draw more than 10 amps which would trip a 10-amp breaker and shut down your track unnecessarily.  So you should be safe with a 12-amp breaker as that was what your transformer was designed for.

Bill (an old EE)

Bill:

Thanks very much for this.  I often operate my postwar "growlers" at higher speeds, so your info is quite helpful.

While I would have just gone with a 12-amp breaker and been done with it, it seems that Mouser's offerings go from a 10-amp breaker directly to a 15-amp unit with nothing in between.

Since I don't currently have any sensitive electronics and since the most likely risk I'm trying to guard against is a derailment or other equivalent short circuit, would the 15-amp unit be ok?  Or is that pushing it risk-wise?

Also, if I did someday embrace change and I purchased a loco manufactured in this millenium, would using a 15-amp breaker imperil the circuitry?

Thanks again for your help.

Steven J. Serenska

C W Burfle posted:

I think ten dollars for a Postwar Lionel #91 breaker would be a bargain!

Prices on eBay are all over the map, of course, but here's one example of a #91 going for $10 and here's another.  Both of these auctions ended within the past 30 days.

Even if I could find them for $10 apiece, I'm going to need 20 in total, so the Mouser option at $2.63 per unit is what I'll head toward.

SJS

Serenska posted:

WftTrains posted:

Steve:

Unlike the original poster it sounds like you're only running post-war equipment so you shouldn't be worried about damaging any sensitive electronics.  However, lightning or power company voltage spikes can still present a problem and your ZW's original internal breaker may someday fail so an external breaker would still be prudent. 

According to page 23 in the attached 1965 Lionel Operating Manual your ZW was designed to supply a total load of 12 amps continuously without overheating.  And that means the total load from all 4 circuits combined and not a load of 12 amps on each circuit individually.  That page also says that each 2-motor diesel with 2 headlights draws 2.9 amps so with two of them you are almost up to 5 amps before you add any additional loads that are connected to any of the other terminals of the ZW.  It also says that a 5-car passenger consist with two lights per car will draw 2 amps which means that ONE 5-car passenger train pulled by a double-motor diesel with 2 headlights will draw almost 5 amps.  When you are running two of them at once you are almost at 10 amps.

You say you have no other loads connected to that transformer so if your total normal max load is 9.8 amps there would probably be times under certain operating conditions (i.e. higher speeds) that you may possibly draw more than 10 amps which would trip a 10-amp breaker and shut down your track unnecessarily.  So you should be safe with a 12-amp breaker as that was what your transformer was designed for.

Bill (an old EE)

Bill:

Thanks very much for this.  I often operate my postwar "growlers" at higher speeds, so your info is quite helpful.

While I would have just gone with a 12-amp breaker and been done with it, it seems that Mouser's offerings go from a 10-amp breaker directly to a 15-amp unit with nothing in between.

Since I don't currently have any sensitive electronics and since the most likely risk I'm trying to guard against is a derailment or other equivalent short circuit, would the 15-amp unit be ok?  Or is that pushing it risk-wise?

Also, if I did someday embrace change and I purchased a loco manufactured in this millenium, would using a 15-amp breaker imperil the circuitry?

Thanks again for your help.

Steven J. Serenska

 

The indexing of comparable breakers doesn't follow properly. These were on a different page.   12 Amp breaker Push to reset.  TW

Edit:  I'd get more than I need of course.  Extras and faulty ones.

SJS said:  "Also, if I did someday embrace change and I purchased a loco manufactured in this millenium, would using a 15-amp breaker imperil the circuitry?"

This is when you may want to go lower, and, use the TVS diodes, if you make the jump to command controlled engines.  Another big savings in amp draw(among other reasons) would be to convert your passenger consists to led lighting. You can buy kits that include parts for a couple cars, or, roll your own if you are so inclined.  Go from +|- 2 amps on a 5 car consist to perhaps 0.5-0.75 amps per 5 cars.  YMMV 

Serenska posted:

WftTrains posted:

Steve:

Unlike the original poster it sounds like you're only running post-war equipment so you shouldn't be worried about damaging any sensitive electronics.  However, lightning or power company voltage spikes can still present a problem and your ZW's original internal breaker may someday fail so an external breaker would still be prudent. 

According to page 23 in the attached 1965 Lionel Operating Manual your ZW was designed to supply a total load of 12 amps continuously without overheating.  And that means the total load from all 4 circuits combined and not a load of 12 amps on each circuit individually.  That page also says that each 2-motor diesel with 2 headlights draws 2.9 amps so with two of them you are almost up to 5 amps before you add any additional loads that are connected to any of the other terminals of the ZW.  It also says that a 5-car passenger consist with two lights per car will draw 2 amps which means that ONE 5-car passenger train pulled by a double-motor diesel with 2 headlights will draw almost 5 amps.  When you are running two of them at once you are almost at 10 amps.

You say you have no other loads connected to that transformer so if your total normal max load is 9.8 amps there would probably be times under certain operating conditions (i.e. higher speeds) that you may possibly draw more than 10 amps which would trip a 10-amp breaker and shut down your track unnecessarily.  So you should be safe with a 12-amp breaker as that was what your transformer was designed for.

Bill (an old EE)

Bill:

Thanks very much for this.  I often operate my postwar "growlers" at higher speeds, so your info is quite helpful.

While I would have just gone with a 12-amp breaker and been done with it, it seems that Mouser's offerings go from a 10-amp breaker directly to a 15-amp unit with nothing in between.

Since I don't currently have any sensitive electronics and since the most likely risk I'm trying to guard against is a derailment or other equivalent short circuit, would the 15-amp unit be ok?  Or is that pushing it risk-wise?

Also, if I did someday embrace change and I purchased a loco manufactured in this millenium, would using a 15-amp breaker imperil the circuitry?

Thanks again for your help.

Steven J. Serenska

 

Steve: It sounds like Ted answered your question by finding a source for 12 amp external breakers.  Before seeing his response, I was going to recommended against the 15 amp external breaker and advise you to buy a new replacement internal 12 amp breaker from a Lionel parts dealer and install it.

Regards,

Bill 

Circuit breakers will only protect the transformer and its wiring to the layout - not your trains' electronics.  Electronic components will fry in a split second - far quicker than any circuit breaker can hope to trip.

A TVS in line with the power feed to your layout will protect the electronics.

Larry

The best amp protoctection for a circuit is the lowest you can manage in comparison to the expected draw. If a 10amp breaker  isnt tripping DONT raise the value. Consider lowering it. That is what I ment by dialing in the value with fuses. They are a cheap sacrificial tool here. A meter works too.

Your loco will more likely draw most at start up as it fights its way out of a stall condition, not at speed.

The TVS is a VOLTAGE spike protectant.

Actually that needs clarifying overall.

The thermal units vs magnetic vs electronic.....

Thermal will ignore peaks, and trip on an averaged draw.

The magnetic and electronic should trip on peaks too. They are sensitive. Electronics fastest because it relies on no mechanical action.

At start up, on a meter, immediate full throttle, heavy loco load, will give you an amp peak. The constant draw will vary, but often the constants peak will be higher speed.

The constants peak amps will usually be lower than the peak amps...thats what I'm missing! 

Thanks for everyone's help on this topic.  A few final questions:

1. After a TVS successfully provides protection from a spike, does it stop functioning and need to be replaced (like a blown fuse) or is it a permanent solution?
   
   
2. Also, when mounting a TVS on an engine, is it correct that 1) you simply wire it from the roller pickup wire to any ground on the engine, as though 2) you were seemingly using the TVS to short the circuit between the engine's roller pickup and ground, and that 3) the polarity doesn't matter on an A/C circuit so either pole of the TVC can be connected to the roller pickup and ground?

My plan is to use the 12-amp breaker suggested by TedW along with the TVC's also suggested by TedW on both the posts of my ZW and within the locomotive itself (to protect when running on someone else's layout).

Thanks for helping this complete EE neophyte.  This has all been incredibly valuable assistance.

Steven J. Serenska

@Serenska, TVS diodes are not one time use like fuses. However, they do eventually wear out - sometimes silently, other times as a dead short. Just like surge protectors in your home, you should replace them every so often. It cannot hurt to have more than one TVS in a circuit.

When installing in an engine (or anywhere), the TVS has one lead on the "HOT" side, and the other lead on the "Ground/Common". The TVS recommend (1.5KE36CA) is not polarized and can be installed either way.

They "wear out" just like a surge protector on power strips, .sometimes fast, sometimes slow.

Yes, Roller to frame ground, (equivalent to transformer posts)

AC is bi polar, flip a coin and mount it

Was the ten amp tripping? 

This is sort of a case of "do as I say, not as I do" ,Lol..

  I use the stock breakers without worry because I'm pretty attentive to issues and use mostly conventional. If I was being paid to do it, I would pretty much insist on a non tripping lower breaker. You already have a 12 amp breaker internally right? So lets say the internal one is 1/100th more sensitive than your new 12a on the outside. Over time the internal one trips first, therefore dies first...

You can even place a spst switch across the 10a blades to bypass the 10amp for rare occasions and have the 12a do the work alone at that time.

It all boils down to" is the 10amp tripping?"

Fyi, I think Napa catalogs an automotive thermal self reseting breaker at 11a. It will be one of those "silver things" you used to see in your old cars fuse boxes 60s-90s, for your power seats or power windows.

hey , mention of the vw breaker made me recall you can effectivly lower the 12a breaker by wrapping the wire lead around the case. The wire warms and adds to the thermal build up tripping it sooner.