Old O gauge track and ZW post war transformer

You have to determine if the engine is the problem or the track is the problem.

Did you look closely at every insulator on the center rail?

Does the transformer breaker trip with nothing on the track?

The clip on device that allows you to connect the transformer wires to the track goes on asymmetrically - it connects to the center rail and only ONE outer rail. Many newbies try to put it on so it looks symmetrical, side to side. That causes a direct short circuit.

Check that the insulators on the ties are dry and/or not displaced.  See if it shorts out without anything on the track.

It could also be the engine itself.  I'm dealing with a Lionel 2020 from 1947 that is shorting out, probably at the armature itself but I don't have the time to chase down the problem.

@RoyBoy posted:

You have to determine if the engine is the problem or the track is the problem.

Did you look closely at every insulator on the center rail?

Does the transformer breaker trip with nothing on the track?

The clip on device that allows you to connect the transformer wires to the track goes on asymmetrically - it connects to the center rail and only ONE outer rail. Many newbies try to put it on so it looks symmetrical, side to side. That causes a direct short circuit.

Thanks RoyBoy. I have the pins in each piece of track and the engine works fine on my upstairs track. I even tried a different engine with the same results to make sure. Somehow I think it’s the 20 g wires. Not certain though.

@lionelflyer posted:

Check that the insulators on the ties are dry and/or not displaced.  See if it shorts out without anything on the track.

It could also be the engine itself.  I'm dealing with a Lionel 2020 from 1947 that is shorting out, probably at the armature itself but I don't have the time to chase down the problem.

Thanks @@Lionel flyer. The insulators are dry and in place. The transformer stays on when the track is empty. I checked the engine and tried another to be sure.  I think it may be the 20g wires. They get extremely hot. I’m gonna try 14 g which I see is recommended.

Sounds to me like it's a combination of one (or more) of your track pieces shorting out, plus the 20 gauge wires being too small to do the job.  I use a minimum of 16 ga. wires for your large loop, or 14 gauge would be even better.

@Mixed Freight posted:

Sounds to me like it's a combination of one (or more) of your track pieces shorting out, plus the 20 gauge wires being too small to do the job.  I use a minimum of 16 ga. wires for your large loop, or 14 gauge would be even better.

Thanks @Mixed Freight. I agree with the wire issue for sure. I cleaned the track today with GooGone then wiped it off with 91% Alcohol the. Sanded the tops with 220 grit sandpaper. It was filthy.  I’ll double check the track again. The only way I know it could short is not being connected correctly. Is their something I may have missed?

A bad insulator on any piece of track will cause a short.   Also that old track has a fiber type insulator for the center rail.    It that is still wet, it could be the short.    Remember each piece of track has 3 insulators on the center rail, one on each tie.    Any one  of those could be bad. 

You could test by taking the loop apart and taking the engine off the track.    Take the loop into halves,  and try the lockon on each half.   Find out if one is good and other bad.   If so, break that section in half and see if one of those halves shorts.    At that point you might be able to find which individual track section it is.

@lionelflyer posted:

Check that the insulators on the ties are dry and/or not displaced.  See if it shorts out without anything on the track.

It could take days for the cardboard insulators to dry out and hopefully that they will still be good and do the job as designed. You can put a meter across the middle rail and outside to see if that was your problem. IMHO 20 gauge wire may be to small a wire for a Post War locomotive.

I agree that 20 gauge wire it probably too light weight.   But the behavior implies dead short.   If the loco runs in other places, it is not the loco, so must be the track.    I think (note think) that even with the light wire, the loco would run if there were not short.   The wire would warm up and then get hot if it is overloaded, but it would not knock out the breaker immediately.

You need to check the track with an ohmmeter. Likely a short in the track. I think the wire that Lionel supplied with their sets was only about 24 AWG, not larger than 22 in any event.

Pete

I agree it's most likely one or more bad insulators.  I would never put track in a dishwasher.  Moisture and detergent don't help those old cardboard insulators.  If you sanded the track, you now have steel dust all over, which magne traction will pick up.  20 gauge wire is too small, and may get very hot, but will not cause the transformer to shut off.

Norton, I never saw any O gauge trains sets with 24 wire.

I find myself wondering if the weight of an engine causes an intermittent short on one or more of those insulators to become the problem point.

The dishwasher thing made me say "Huh!?!" as well.

-Dave

Good thought, Dave.  An insulator could get a crack that only allows contact when pressed down.

@RJR posted:

I agree it's most likely one or more bad insulators.  I would never put track in a dishwasher.  Moisture and detergent don't help those old cardboard insulators.  If you sanded the track, you now have steel dust all over, which magne traction will pick up.  20 gauge wire is too small, and may get very hot, but will not cause the transformer to shut off.

Norton, I never saw any O gauge trains sets with 24 wire.

Jeff Kane’s replacement wire list shows only 22 and 24 gauge wire. Original wire from a post war set measures .025” = 22 AWG. FWIW 20 and 22 AWG is rated for 11 and 7 amps respectively. That is over short distances in open air.  Imagine a kid in 1950 trying to push a 16 gauge wire into a fahnestock clip.

That said its not what you would want to wire a layout with.

Pete

Pete, I'm trying to recall the wire from the trains that were given to me before WWII.  I recall the wire was solid, with a rubber insulation, and I can't picture it as 24.   Yes, I remember the fahnestock clips.

Are you sure 20 is rated for 11?  14 (which is the smallest that I use for trains) is rated at 15 amps.  I'm thinking 18 was rated for 10 or 12.

Don't ever sand the track. Sanding will take off the tin plating, leaving bare steel that will rust. Clean dirt and gunk with Naphtha, not alcohol. Alcohol absorbs moisture from the air, and when it evaporates on your track, it will leave a very fine coat of moisture that will promote more rust.

Once the dirt is off the track, you may want to polish the rails with a Briteboy.

Larry

@Tim Ethier posted:

Hey Guys,

I bought some old O Gauge track from a local hobby store.  Before doing anything I cleaned it by running through the Dishwasher as suggested. Dried it thoroughly before use. Put together a large loop around my living room.  Put my ZW Post War transformer to the track using 20 gauge wire. Got a buzz of sorts on the engine I’m testing with but no running or even lights. Wires got really hot and the transformer tripped off. This happened over and over. I cleaned the track section I was using to see if that was the problem. No go. It’s connected all around but not secured yet. I’m sort of thinking it’s the wires but not sure. Any suggestions?  Thanks guys, I  appreciate the input.

Tim

Hey guys,

Thank you all for your replies. I checked all the track and there were three pieces of uninsulated track in the bunch of used track. The best advice I could have gotten.  

I also appreciate the info on cleaning track and what to and not to use in doing so.

thanks again, I finally have it running and can start to use it for the holidays.

Tim

Tim glad you got this annoying problem solved and can concentrate on running trains. Just a tip is to check each track section prior to assembly with an ohmmeter from the outside to middle rail to ensure there is no continuity. Even if they have been in storage for years.

Glad you got it figured out.  Old track can be a bargain, but there's work involved. 

Think twice before taking any further advice from whoever suggested putting it in the dishwasher.

Will do. I actually got that off this forum.

@Tim Ethier posted:

Will do. I actually got that off this forum.

...and don't take marital advice from him either!   Anyone who puts train items in the dishwasher or oven should have a divorce lawyer on speed dial.

I can't believe what i read here from Tim, washing steel track in a dishwasher!

reminds me when I was in the tv radio and electronic repair business when i was much younger, I got a tv chassis in that a guy brought into our shop and asked us to recondition, and repair whatever was needed ! so I repaired the RCA  chassis, and then called him to come pick it up, chassis was a solid state and tube older chassis. he came and picked it up with a happy smile on his face and left! a few days later he brought it back and said It would not work! so i asked him what had he done to it, he said i took the chassis to the car wash and washer the entire chassis!

needless to say i asked him why he had done that and he wanted  very clean before installing in his tv set! the set chassis was ruined !

I  was shocked  and walked away!

NEVER put water or any conductive liquid on ANYTHING ELECTRICAL!!!

Alan Mancus

I have been washing contaminated electronic boards in soap and water for years.

Blow it off with compressed air and let it dry for a couple of days. Saved a lot of expensive instruments that way.

Pete