Operating or Running???

It's true that the 3-rail crowd is probably grounded in more of the "running" mindset. Probably hardwired from the years of squarish trackplans and collecting. However, some of the members here do have layouts that support full operations. I visited a very large private layout and could immediately see how the sheer size supported the idea of full operations (true destinations separated by great distances, long passing sidings, yards, etc.). However, this guy was more of a runner and thus just had a double track main snaking through the room.

I'm intrigued by operations and have also incorporated support for it on our previous small layouts. However, as much as I'd like to be a full adopter, I find myself quickly getting bored with the tedious nature and slow pace of it. Maybe if it were in more of a group setting, on a large layout, with each person having specific tasks? 

Coupler operation is also a big factor. In the oversized coupler world, the newer Lionel couplers close with very little force. But earlier versions and most of those from other mfg's can require some real force to close. As soon as I have to start banging cars together by hand, I loose interest in attempting operations.

Mike

I'm trying to find that happy medium of both.  I don't have a whole basement , so I went multi level to add "distance" for my layout. 

I'm still rearranging track, trying to figure out sidings for industries I want to include, or scenery I want to have.

I do run my trains as I'm rearranging and whatnot!

Look up the Pennsylvania & Western.    That is a large operating 3 rail scale layout in the Cinci area.  

The 2 rail club in Cincinnati also operates as does teh detroit Model RR Club.   Both are O 2 rail.   

Ted Schneff in Chicago area (Rails Unlimited) has a very very large operating layout in 2 rail.

A friend of mine has a medium sized 3 rail layout based on the Western Maryland that is operating, not running.

My layout based on a Pennsy Branchline in the Pittsburgh area is 2 rail and operating. 

These are just the ones I have personally operated on.

There is absolutely nothing keeping O scale from operating and actually it operates better than HO because if well built, you can run slower, things stay on the track better, and the size is easier to see.  

As someone mentioned above, there seems to be a mind-set among many in Oscale especially 3 rail, that you shouldn't do anything that guys in HO do and your layout should be a loop with trains chasing their tail on a "table"

In reality any scale can does operate, including the 7 1/2 linch gauge outdoor layout north of here,   And one of the nicest operating home layouts locally is an N scale layout based on the MIlwaukee Road.

I'm building my layout for operations in the classic two rail style, however I have made provisions to be able do some display running as well. My feelings on just building a running layout is, after a while, you could lose interest, especially once the scenery is done.

If you've already been exposed to operations, and like it, it seems like a no brainer. I do so wish more 3 railers would catch the operations bug. That's what trains are made to do.

If you want to see my layout click "follow the progress" below.

for those who are not familiar with what "operating" means, here are some YouTube links to show how simple it is to " operate" even a 3 rail layout.

http://youtu.be/KA3azXm06d4

http://youtu.be/p_Sh48Zr_pM

http://youtu.be/P4_u-X-M2UE

David, that's a good example of a small to medium sized layout. It still has a loop for running, but he really likes to simulate some railroad action with his switches.

I built my 12x12 layout has an operating layout, but I do let them air out every now and then by running around the outer mainline, all 072 curves.  Here's the plan of my layout:

There's no fancy trackwork, tunnels, hidden areas, the only features are the swing down bridge at the throat of the Wye to gain access to the room and the Atlas turntable.  The layout is flat (or should be, there is a bit of a rise in a couple of areas).

I can run a train around the outer loop whiles switching the 4 industrial spurs on the inner track, and move engines back and forth around the TT and engine house.  The track going down the left side by the TT is "Offline" to points unknown (hopefully future expansion!).

David,

Thanks for the youtube links....exactly what I was looking for!!!!...thanks to everyone else who replied....would like to get some more feedback on this....Has OGR ever featured an operating layout?

Joeceleb posted:

David,

Thanks for the youtube links....exactly what I was looking for!!!!...thanks to everyone else who replied....would like to get some more feedback on this....Has OGR ever featured an operating layout?

 

My Pennsylvania & Western 3-rail operating layout was featured in the January 2016 issue of OGR magazine (the article follows one of the local freights) and also in the Great Layout Adventures Volume 11 DVD (available from the Web Store link at the top of this page).  The 52 minute video segment on the DVD describes the operating concept of the layout, how trains interact and shows some switching moves as well. 

I also have quite a bit of operating info with photos on my website (link below).  I've hosted regular monthly operating sessions for  over 11 years and the fun factor just keeps increasing. 

Joeceleb,

your welcome.

it took me 40 yrs to discover "operating a railroad" -vs- running a train in loops and circles. The differance is night and day.

Ive had the privilege of operating on Bob Bartizeks railroad(previous post)a true gentlemen and awesome operations enthusiast. Use, and study the information on Bobs railroad. 

My first encounter is when I attended a local train show hosted by our local division of National Model Railroaders Association. I approached the Division Table that was hosting the show and after briefly explaining my 30 yrs in running O gauge trains in loops, I inquired how do I learn how to operate a model railroad. They introduced me to some wonderful guys who invited me to operate with them on their railroads(HO).

they stood by me to help me the first time, they were everything I could have asked for, polite, understanding, helpful. I continue to operate with them today.

 Operating sessions generally run 21/2-3 hours. Operations put a whole new purpose to having a "layout".

They don't refer to them as " layouts" but as " railroads". I have a deep appreciation for these guys and also for HO scale. 

im sure some are perfectly happy running loops.

i wish that everyone has the opportunity to expireance operations.

This is an interesting question. I have N, HO and O. Only the O is running now. The HO is supposed to be C&O in war time, pulling coal loads to the ports and factories, war material, passenger, troop trains, etc. I think I had more thought about operations with this one, but also just watching long coal drags and flats full of tanks seems cool, too. The original plan was quite elaborate but reality has taken a nasty turn. At one time I had a 40 x 40 space and was going to push it against the wall so I had easy reach. it included a military base and a port. Really over did it.

The N will never be "operational". just seems like to much of a hassle. I do have a John Allen track plan that seems good for that, Santa Fe, SP and UP at San Berdino and the Pass. There is some ability to work a yard or shuffle freight off scene to industries, but I just want to watch that one run. Especially the UP Kato E units and Concor passenger trains, ATSF 4-8-4s with heavyweights and F units also pulling Concor pass sets.

The O, not sure. Where I am now I have a 6 x10 in the living room. The ex was a real PITA about space. The new GF and I have sorta been looking at houses and she only shows me ones with big basements - all for me. May have to keep this one. She gushed over my Christmas layouts. And I volunteered to build one next Christmas at our church and she was a big cheerleader telling the person I was talking to how cool my layouts were. (Yeah dating is fun in your 50s when you have a train layout in your LIVING ROOM. It helps to weed out the potential pains quick, though.)

Kinda hoping for a long 20 to 40 feet straightaway with turns at the end, possibly 2 levels, lotsa running room for 50s era PRR coal drags, Tuscan passengers and local freight. I like the idea of having a what's the term a connection yard to another railroad (NYC and/or N&W) to bring things in from off scene and building trains for local deliveries. And bring them back to go off scene. Of course to do it right you need scenery, but I suspect I may have volunteers, GF and daughter (12 and still enthusiastic). Yards are expensive in real estate especially in O. But I'd like to keep a much on the layout as possible so sidings and a yard are a must.

Need to think this through carefully I guess.

Bob,

Thank you for pointing me to the Pennsylvania Western Railroad....enjoyed reading the article...and spent quite a bit of time on your web page...one AMAZING layout!!!!!....I also went an ordered the CD...

Dave,

You are a lucky guy to be able to operate on Bob's layout....must be a lot of fun.....I will be attending my fist HO operating session this Saturday with the new club I joined ....looking forward to mingling in with the HO crew.....

My current layout only stands at 6x8 and I am moving to 6x12....would like to know if anyone has any track plans about this size that show what switches and sidings they used to come up with an operating session....attached is what I have come up with using on 4 switches on the 6x8 table.....any ideas, thoughts, comments would be appreciated....design was done using SCARM...

Thanks everyone who responded....

Last attachment did not post correctly....I have done another update...the 6x8 is what I am currently putting together.....the 6x12 is my planned expansion......

I made a couple of changes to the 6x12 plan to increase operation potential (see the attached file).  First, I added an interchange track on the left side that will hold about 7 cars.  These cars have come in from another railroad and are to be switched into industries you have modeled.  Cars from your industries can be switched onto the interchange track to go to the other railroad.

I added one switch so that another spur fits into the top of the plan.  There might be 2 industries on this spur: Industry A is along the 20 inches of track before you get to the new switch I added and Industry B uses both tracks at the far right of that spur.  My thought is that the industry requires clean cars to be loaded.  Inbound cars get routed to the "cleanout track" which is the top track of the pair.  After cleaning, the cars get moved to the "loading track" which is the bottom track of the pair. 

Assume that 2 of the cars from the interchange track are bound for Industry B and that Industry A is still loading or unloading the cars spotted for it.  Your switching plan would need to move Industry A cars out of the way, pick up cars from Industry B loading track, move cars from Industry B cleanout track to loading track, deliver interchange cars to Industry B cleanout track and finally replace Industry A cars back at Industry A.

Multiple moves like that make for interesting switching.  If Industry A has 2 spots, one of them might be for a boxcar and the other for a tank car.  The cars must be spotted in the proper order, which also makes things more complicated and interesting.

All of this assumes that you have access from both the top and bottom of the plan for uncoupling cars.

Thank you for the input Bob....will certainly make things a lot more interesting and challenging at the same time...I added some labels in to make sure I got it all right.....at some point I need to name each location.......just got my video today in the mail...will be watching that tonight for sure......

Regards,

Joe

Strictly a runner here. I'm building my seventh layout in 45+ year. My previous layouts were designed for operation (single track mainline with passing sidings,branch lines,sidings and businesses) designed "by the book" for realistic operation. It was interesting - sort of,but never really exciting or satisfying. My new layout is designed to be exciting! - with lots of mainline action. There are four two-track mainlines and two large yards as well as locomotive shops. I will be able to have 16 trains running at once. 

Boomer, how big is your space?

Bluegill1 posted:

for those who are not familiar with what "operating" means, here are some YouTube links to show how simple it is to " operate" even a 3 rail layout.

http://youtu.be/KA3azXm06d4

http://youtu.be/p_Sh48Zr_pM

http://youtu.be/P4_u-X-M2UE

I've watched almost all of his videos.  For a smallish layout, it is very good, in terms of operation.  I think he has also done a fine job on buildings and scenery.

I really enjoyed all the input everyone gave on this topic and also the help from those who worked on my layout plan. One member asked if the layout could be accessed from all sides. And the answer to that question is yes. What I have in mind is more of a small city scene on one side and more rural/country on the other. Think of a train traveling from a small town in NJ up to the Catskill Mountains in NY. I don't now if any line ever ran this route so I might be putting something together that never really existed.

Getting back to the track plan what I am not sure about is what radius of switches I should be using. The way it exists now I have mixed in O54, O45 and O36. All done to either make it easy to connect inner/outer loops or trying to make the best of space. I would like narrow it down to either all O54 or O45 or maybe a combination of both. I currently own 1-O36 and 2-O54 switches. So before I spend any more money on switch tracks I was looking for some input from our more experienced OGR forum members. As always your input is greatly appreciated. I am attaching the latest SCARM track plan. 

Thanks folks.

Joe

I came to O gauge on the "Grandson Route" having previously been very heavily into HO scale operation and prototype modelling ("Prototype Paperwork for a Small Layout" in MR). An advantage that makes me prefer continuous running in the larger scale is better visibility and better sound: the larger scale, in my opinion, excels in "railfanning" scenes in a way HO does not. "Operation" is a key to making a small layout act bigger, because your attention is on minutiae. But in O the real estate required for adequately sized staging and sidings seems (to me) overwhelming. When I look at track plans for the "next" layout, I'm always taking out spurs and keeping only sidings that will let me keep an entire train on the layout without fiddling cars. My grandkids (now there are two) seem to find that at least two trains are necessary for "train ecstasy" and I'm inclined to agree, although for my own pleasure they don't have to actually run simultaneously. At least one needs sound.

I think continuous running can be just as serious and sophisticated as Timetable/Train Order or Switchlist operation. More importantly, it can be more aesthetically pleasing, since in general when in an operating session you are either consumed by your own train or stuck in a "lounge"--you're not trainwatching. Of course,  the decision to continuously run tinplate or scale trains is still yours to make, even if your layout is designed solely for continuous running. I came to the decision that the varied proportions of tinplate were okay for the Christmas train but that for my everyday pleasure I wanted to look at scale cars in appropriately organized trains: my current choices are a mail-and-express train and a mixed train in the Lucius Beebe fashion. I could have saved some money if I'd seen that coming, but I don't mind paying for education.

For the time being (until the basement room becomes available) I'm very happy continuously running those trains on small table railroads in the garage with only one or two ovals (there are three currently, small so I can give them away easily later). The project for the basement is still modest: the layout posted by ACE on 2/15/13, a10' by 10' dogbone I'll take the spurs out of and fill with trees for non-holiday running and with my wife's Dept 56 for Christmas. A fifty-foot mainline run in a ten-by-ten room is nothing to scoff at, but building the layout for prototype operation as well as continuous running would compromise, for me at least, some of the dogbone's inherent benefits. For instance, needing the siding for runaround during switching would prevent its use as staging for the second train, at least requiring the fiddling which I'm trying to avoid. The aisle end of the layout will be open all the way across, so there will be many angles for open-house trainwatching.

My two previous, much smaller layouts, where running oriented with multiple loops and only a few siding to holds trains waiting their turn to be run.  I enjoyed running while I worked on other parts of the layout, but at the same time it did get old after awhile.  I redid some of the sidings on my last layout for some industries and switching operations and I found I also enjoyed that.

My in-progress layout is much bigger and still has three loops for running.  But it also has some industries, a power station-coal mine companion setup, ice track, passenger station with tracks to pickup/drop off diners/RPOs, and a usable yard with a yard lead track.  It also has a hidden storage yard.

I guess I need to get this up and running and see which type of operation I like best.

Some time back my older son and I built a classic HO shelf switching layout from one of the Atlas layout books. At the time, Atlas sold kits with all the track needed. It was fun building it, but it never got much use. Neither my son nor I found it to be enjoyable.

I guess I like my trains to go around in circles.
But I am mostly a collector and an tinkerer.
The more I had to do to rescue or revive a train, the better I like using it.

My older son developed some serious skills in model building and making scenery. But he doesn't have time or space for trains right now.

five dead end branch lines, many industries on three levels,  TTs to turn the steam engines at each town, several fingers/peninsulas to walk in and around.  Although it is for operating, with 100' to 140' between stops there is a fair degree of running.

Both, operating and running, my wife likes to watch the trains running  whereas I prefer operating,  to compensate for these two operating aspects, I have double track mains for most of the train layout one designated East the other West, with Weaver crossover switches from the West and East yards across both mains and one long  passing siding between the East and West Mains and accessable on both ends by each main,industry sidings also located off each main track. Layout is basically looped and not point to point , layout is still a work in progress and not complete.  

true operating is an art in my opinion. but running is just plain fun.

Bob C.

I'm in the final stages of designing my first O Gauge basement layout.  The layout we have right now is on a shelf around our kitchen and dining area.  It is a single track and, except for a siding where I store 7-8 engines it only runs.  Today, as I've sat working at the kitchen computer, a passenger train has run 70 scale miles.

After seeing and trying a friends HO scale operating layout, I've incorporated as much operating into the basement layout as I can fit.  Trains will "run" simulating mainline traffic, while local industry switching will provide "operations" supporting both the local area modeled and the mainline where interchange of cars will occur.

Rick

You can set up basic "operating" on almost any layout that you incorporate a few sidings and at least one run-around into. There were tinplate clockwork layouts years ago that ran on timetable schedules, express passenger trains, the whole nine yards.

I've found that a card or tab system is pretty easy-going with no stress. Have a few markers that correspond to different locations on the layout, shake them up in a cup, and put them on a few cars here and there. Now gather the cars together, make up a trains to pick them up and deliver them to their destinations. Colored thumb-tacks have been used too. It's about as close as I like to get to high-stress dispatching.

I'm strictly a runner and pretty much agree with everything RDM said, especially since I'm space-deprived. I love watching trains run and enjoy switching between inside/outside mains and reversing. The only car switching I'll be doing is running into a yard, dropping off the consist and picking a new one to run with.

In the real world my favorite railfan activity is to watch different mainline trains go by - not to observe locals switching cars at trackside industries, which certain of the hobby magazines seem to be preoccupied with.

I have a good friend who was a train dispatcher for nearly his entire railroad career. On a few privileged occasions I got to watch him dispatch multiple through trains on mainline CTC territory, sometimes for hours at a time. 

I've developed a system of operation for my larger HO and O layouts which combines dispatcher operations and railfanning. Basically, it involves running a sequence of different trains over the territory. The layout features which I value most are ample mainline mileage, a long double-ended yard, a passing siding, junctions with alternate routing possibilities, challenging grades, and hidden layover track. I manage to do this on layouts of moderate size, not real huge as often featured in hobby magazines.

Even on my O27 layout I can run about eight different trains in sequence, but they have to back into yard tracks. My goal is to keep all the traffic moving regularly, and to maintain all the mechanical elements for reliable operation.

The first HO layout I built for myself as a teenager was a switching layout, because a hobby magazine touted switching layouts as "great for limited space". But I got bored with it. Follow your own interests to create a model railroad that is fun and entertaining for yourself.

I operate my trains using ShipIT.  You enter the towns, the industries, the products both the maker of the product and the consumer of the product and the appropriate railcar to transport the product.  It then creates sessions to move the various products around my layout.  Very fun.

  In my mind, achieving a fully functional railroad in miniature is next to impossible.  Unless you have a large enough building or perhaps a stadium to house the layout, you are never going to achieve nirvana in the miniature world.  You may reach what you think is the be-all and end-all of layouts, but inevitably it will not satisfy you for various reasons.  I am one of those who cannot think too deeply in the abstract.  I cannot run electric locomotives under an imaginary catenary, for instance.  I cannot imagine long distances between stations when, in reality,  there is only a few feet, if that.    

What I have come to realize is that switching or traction layouts are most likely the closest we will ever come to prototypical operation.  Modeling a freight yard or a group of industries in close proximity to one another or a section of a city with trolley wires strung throughout one can achieve a near actual life-like world in miniature.  Most of us cannot bring ourselves to limit our layouts.  Probably due to our tin-plate roots.  It takes a certain kind of modeler, like a person that builds dioramas, to be satisfied with a layout that does not have large mainline locomotives pulling long freight or passenger trains.

It has taken me over forty years in the hobby to come to these conclusions, which are my own and in no way to be taken as everyone else's way of thinking.

Joe,

I'm not sure anyone has answered your question about the three different radii of switches your current plan proposes to use.  Just like curves at the edge of a table, the smallest switch radius (or angle) you choose to use will govern the size of equipment you can run through a switch.  The only exception might be placing switches in separable areas that only smaller equipment is intended to operate.

For example, an 80 foot long passenger car probably will not run through the curved part of an O36 switch without derailing.  Similarly, a short diesel switcher and a 40 foot car will easily go through that same O36 switch, but that same switcher pushing an 89 foot auto carrier car will not make it through the same O36 switch. 

Layout design is always about "givens and druthers."  Longer cars and engines may require O72 or #6 switches, while only the shortest cars and engines will safely navigate O36 switches, in most cases.  Think about (givens) the type of equipment you plan to run and make your choices (druthers) accordingly.

Chuck

Chuck, I don't see where Joe asked about switch track radii.  Isn't his question more about what type of layout to build, "Operating" or simply "Turn 'em on and watch 'em run".  

In my mind an operating layout in "O" scale/gauge can be one of two things.  It can be the type that mimics reality or the type that I am building with Lionel's operating accessories.  

A running layout is just that, one where you turn the power on and the trains run around a circuit, be it a simple oval or an elaborate configuration of track.

My original post was intended to get feed back on operating or running. Once I made up my mind I designed a track plan that would pretty much satisfy both....but I would use it mostly for switching.....I posted that layout in this forum but what I should have done (and most likely will) is start on new post on just the layout design......It was still interesting reading all the responses to the questions or operating or running...but Chuck was the only one who addressed my question on the layout design and the number of different switches I am using....So I will be posting on new topic on the layout design....but if anyone else wants to add their input on operating or running please feel free to....to me it's always an interesting topic especially for those in O gauge who do not have much space to work with....