Options for a PS-1 loco reset chips fails to reset???? FIXED!

I have found with some PS-1s that after it has been energized from the track and gone through its Check sequence, using the throttle by slowly decreasing to zero volts and then  raising it slowly will get it to move. I have done this rather than using the direction button to get the initial start. The direction button usually works fine after that initial start. Hope it works for you. Sounds like a nice loco. 

Dave,  first question when you try to take it out of "initial reset" mode do you keep voltage from 8V to something less than 10V?

Remember these PS systems start-up in initial reset not neutral.  Then they cycle forward-neutral-reverse-neutral-forward etc. etc. .

Also MTH techs have additional forcing chips than the one we can purchase in the kit.

Ron

I have  the same problem with one of my proto 1 engines. Can't wait to hear what the solution is.

Bob

Here are two things you can try:

First - turn the smoke switch OFF.  Turn on the transformer to between 10-12 volts.  This MAY cause the engine  to power up in neutral. 

Second -  If no luck - try and power up with track voltage of 7-8 volts, then interrupt the power.  Bring the power back up to 8-10 volts and interrupt power to go to forward.  This may work.

Try using a pure sine wave transformer, like the Z-4000 or older Lionel 1033 or ZW.  Original ProtoSound will only run on a pure sine wave power source.

bruce

PS1 can be frustrating but provides a lot of capability for a conventional system.  My procedure for repairs or locos I buy for resale is as follows:  First remove the battery and measure the terminal voltage.  If not at rated replace the battery.  Since you indicated you have installed a new battery for test you are probably O.K.   Next, as indicated in an earlier post use a sine wave transformer if possible.  This would be any of the postwar transformers like 1033, KW, or ZW.  Remember that the initial application of voltage brings the unit up in the reset mode not neutral.  Apply voltage to the track keeping the initial application to 10 volts or less.  You should hear two bells and the start-up procedure.  During this time the system is doing a self check to make certain all is functional.  This takes about 2.5 seconds and you should not interrupt power until it has completed.  Use the voltage control to decrease voltage to zero.  Then increase the voltage to start running.  If the unit does not run you can retry but let the transformer at zero volts until all sound stops.  Listen for a small chirp as the shutdown completes.  The rate you decrease the voltage coming out of reset can also be a factor so if the first attempt fails, decrease the voltage slowly on the next attempt.  Something else to consider is that the reversing unit can be locked in any of the modes I.E. forward, neutral or reverse.  There is a designated reset to remove the lock but I can't remember the number.  Since you indicated you have performed reset 18, this is probably not an issue.  I hope you can solve the problem without taking drastic measures.  Best Regards,

Phranzdan

I use the Z4000 and did the 18 reset with it. I also put another chip in from another loco and it worked and then put back in old chip with good results dont know if one of the prongs had corrosion or bad contact. I always recharge the battery on proto 1 before running or I just check the voltage with my cheap harbor freight volt meter and the voltage is around eight to 9 volts not 6 or 7. You can even use good rechargeable batteries I read on a post  some time ago.

Dave:

That loco is one of the locos on the MTH "Deselect" list.  If it's pre-1999 vintage and if it starts up normally, but will not move, it's likely that the chip must be replaced with a new one from MTH which corrects the problem.  Those chips are still available and I think the MSRP is $30.00.  A call to Midge will get what you need, be sure to have the product number ready.

I hope this helps.

The reset chip is for the 3 clanks of death ONLY.  Pat is correct.  At some point someone tried to power the engine with the old white battery.  A new chip is the only fix.  Did you put in a new 9V before or after you tried to first power the engine?  It has been talked about many times by MTH tech guys to not run any PS-1 locomotives if the old white battery is present.  That carries over to the PS-2 5 volt boards also.  

Pat Marinari posted:

Dave:

That loco is one of the locos on the MTH "Deselect" list.  If it's pre-1999 vintage and if it starts up normally, but will not move, it's likely that the chip must be replaced with a new one from MTH which corrects the problem.  Those chips are still available and I think the MSRP is $30.00.  A call to Midge will get what you need, be sure to have the product number ready.

I hope this helps.

While a PS-1 loco it is a 'MT' stock number unit making it a very early edition if I understand right.  So that may be the issue. I asked the seller if he ran it before selling and he claimed 'it ran fine without the 9v battery'....is this part of the issue??? I didn't think these ran w/o the battery w/o scrambling the board. Thanks all!!!

I hope you get it resolved.  I hear this same story every week from guys that purchase engines from fleabay.    I hope you purchased it from someone who will work with you.

AMEENTRAINGUY,  any MTH dealer should have the reset kit. Cheap?   They are very inexpensive.  Remember,  this kit is to be used for the 3 clanks of death and nothing else.  The kit has a chip, chip puller, and new green 8.4V battery.   

PS-1 is a very good system.  If the battery is recent and charged, they run great.  I broke into MTH repairs on PS-1 at school and have every note and document ever published.  Many folks do not realize that MTH still sells PS-1 boards and has them in stock and available.  I still get to work on many of those engines.  I tell people use a NEW green MTH battery or a recent production BCR.  Stay clear from the old pink BCR from the turn of the last century.

Anytime you come by a PS-1 engine, the FIRST thing to do is replace the battery before you do anything.   I see people who just have to try the newly acquired engine  out before doing the battery.  The rest is history.   In the last two years I have seen a lot of PS-1 engines for repair.   

Anyone use the Dallee #599 battery replacement in a PS-1 loco??? Looks like I may get a few if they work well. thanks

https://www.dallee.com/Battery...-for-MTH-systems-599

Dave, I am about to gut my PS1 GTEL, assuming this is the one you have.  Contact me vial email in my profile if interested in the boards.  Also have a BCR with it.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

PS-1 is a very good system.  If the battery is recent and charged, they run great.  I broke into MTH repairs on PS-1 at school and have every note and document ever published.  Many folks do not realize that MTH still sells PS-1 boards and has them in stock and available.  I still get to work on many of those engines.  I tell people use a NEW green MTH battery or a recent production BCR.  Stay clear from the old pink BCR from the turn of the last century.

Marty, the sounds are good and they run bullet proof flawlessly when following your advice!

Guys, the Dallee system is just what the doctor ordered.    Dallee products get top nod in my book.

Sounds like deselect as stated, so the best thing is to get a new chip from MTH.  I had to do this with one of my locomotives.  It showed up quick and I was back in action.  If you try to use the chip from a locomotive of the same era, like the one from the gutted one, you'll have the same issue as that chip still looks for the deselect code.  The new chips from MTH do not follow the deselect code and thus will work.

I found the cure!!!!!

The cure consisted of opening, installing and powering up my new Z-4000 transformer!!! 

I had given up last night and turned everything off, went to bed. Before I decided to order a new  chip or even boards I figured I'd hook up the Z-4000 and try a #18 reset one time. Well.....I never got that far. Once hooked up I put the turbine on the track, 10 volts for a full minute.....and she started working!!! I did nothing other than remove the Z-750 and install the 4000. Was that my issue??

I have a learning curve on this PS-x stuff I guess.  EVERY new MTH loco I bought when I entered O3r was Loco-sound (remember those??) And now I need to learn this 'new' way. Thanks to all!!!!

PS..even in my HO days I ran 100% conventional. Put a Athrean loco on the track...it ran....and cost $25. So that's part of why the learning curve is so steep for me!!!

That is one of the few quirks of PS-1, the MTH locos don't sometimes like the Z750 and Z 1000 transformers, but no hard and fast rule controls. But PS1 is reliable when using the right transformers, and will take a lot of punishment from young operators. One observation is that the PS-1 F-3 locos have possibly the best horn of any sound equipped loco.

The sawtooth waveform of electronically controlled transformers drives QSI and early PS/1 nuts, later PS/1 didn't have any issues with them.  You have used the Silver Bullet on the issue.

I DO like this Z-4000........

Just to add my two cents, the Z750 and Z1000 use thyristor control of the voltage output.  The pass element is a Triac with conduction angle control in much the same manner as the trigger speed control on a drill or the dimmer used for incandescent lighting.  The problem results from transient caused by the voltage across the main terminals of the Triac going from some high positive or negative value to the forward conduction drop of the Triac almost instantaneously.  If you have a scope and one of these transformers handy you can watch the changing conduction angle as you vary the voltage control knob.  The sudden change in voltage can cause all kinds of transients which gets into the circuitry and cause havoc.  Remember, the same voltage being applied to the track is also being used to power the circuitry.   There is no wave shaping just the partial sine wave applied prior to the Triac firing.  When viewed on a scope, it may resemble a sawtooth especially at high conduction angles i.e. when the Triac fires early and only a small segment of the sine wave is present.  In my early days in the applications development lab at RCA Solid State, we spent a lot of time mulling over how to "quiet" this type of circuit.  Hope this helps in understanding the problem.

I forgot to mention in the earlier post, that all of the information in this thread has given me a much better perspective on QSI/PS1.  I haven't had many problems but there were a few instances where the information would have helped considerably.  Thanks to all who have contributed.

Best Regards

Phranzdan 

I will not claim to fully understand all of what you said...but thankful for the explanation. 

So.....how about the plus and minus on some other transformers??? I have two others that I am a bit scarred to use now.....are you familiar with some of the others out there???  thx

 - I appreciated your comments on the Z-750 and Z-1000.  I have one of each, mainly to run small loops under the Christmas Tree or run trains at other locations and they simply can not run PS1, PS2 or PS3 locomotives.  Those locos power up but do not move.

Is there anything we can add to the outputs, like light bulbs?  to quiet the transients?

bruce

That is all part of my frustration with MTH PS-X locos. MTH manufactured transformers Z-500-750-1000 do not operate their own equipment!!! Wrongly I assumed that a MTH transformer will operate a MTH loco.....I know I have gutted more than one PS-1 loco because my Z-750 would not operate it and I figured it was dead....maybe it was....but now I wonder!!!

Dave,

MTH manufactured transformers Z-500-750-1000 do not operate their own equipment!!!

That's a somewhat gross exaggeration.

All MTH transformers operate all PS2 and PS3 engines just fine. The only difficulty is with some early PS1 engines, and those with even earlier electronics, that have issues with some MTH transformers.

Since the affected engines were all manufactured prior to 2000 (18 years ago), I'd say this issue has been resolved and any discussion of it is moot.

Further, I believe that all of the stated transformers were introduced after the affected engines were pretty much out of production.

I stand corrected PS-2,3 then.......STILL.......can you see the frustration in a MTH transformer does not operate a MTH product???? 

Say I buy a Ford truck......I get in and try and drive it home. It does not start. I ask why??? I am told my Ford made key does not start my Ford truck.....but if I want to buy a much more expensive key all will be fine. 

Oh....and by the way if you buy a expensive key from another manufacture...it will nor work either.  In fact it may damage my truck. 

I am a conventional runner. EVERY MTH loco I bought new (until I bought a PS-3 loco recently) was Loco-sound and were rock solid and ran no matter what I used to run them.  When I wanted to go scale I had no choice but get into the PS-X world. Suddenly MTH product will not run with MTH  controls. And transformers considered good and higher end may or may not damage MTH locos but run scale Lionel, WbB, Weaver etc fine. More frustration.....Add to it the prior 25 years  in HO scale trains....every transformer ran every loco every time I powered it up.  Why did these $50 locos run but suddenly these $300-400 locos NOT run??? See the frustration??? And see my logic???

Thanks all....

I've never had any problems operating my few remaining PS1 engines with my old Z750 transformer & controller. They work very well along with all of my other conventional engines with the Z750.

I do have problems with my Z750 on a test track with a couple of my early PS2 (5v) engines making a terrible buzzing noise and the bell continuously ringing. I suspect this is caused by not having any other load on the track other than the engine. I really didn't test it much as I prefer to use a classic copper wound transfer (Williams 80 watt) on my test bench.

AMCDave posted:

I stand corrected PS-2,3 then.......STILL.......can you see the frustration in a MTH transformer does not operate a MTH product???? 

Say I buy a Ford truck......I get in and try and drive it home. It does not start. I ask why??? I am told my Ford made key does not start my Ford truck.....but if I want to buy a much more expensive key all will be fine. 

Oh....and by the way if you buy a expensive key from another manufacture...it will nor work either.  In fact it may damage my truck. 

I am a conventional runner. EVERY MTH loco I bought new (until I bought a PS-3 loco recently) was Loco-sound and were rock solid and ran no matter what I used to run them.  When I wanted to go scale I had no choice but get into the PS-X world. Suddenly MTH product will not run with MTH  controls. And transformers considered good and higher end may or may not damage MTH locos but run scale Lionel, WbB, Weaver etc fine. More frustration.....Add to it the prior 25 years  in HO scale trains....every transformer ran every loco every time I powered it up.  Why did these $50 locos run but suddenly these $300-400 locos NOT run??? See the frustration??? And see my logic???

Thanks all....

RIGHT!   Ive heard about these issues and it really doesn't make any sense.   But then again my CW80 will not work the horn on my Wabash FF engine/tender OR it sticks because of the transformer (Lionel notes this in the CW80 paperwork) ..     Things change I know.  I was considering buying a  BIG GUN transformer myself.  But which one I cant decide.  A ZW that will run 4 trains for 8 bills or a Z4000 that will operate 2 for 4 bills.   Will each of them run all trains?  

Jim

Dave,

If you wanted to get into scale and more detailed engines as a conventional operator, then you should have done your homework before investing invery old technology.

I suspect that you bought PS1 engines at a deep discount simply because they were so cheap, without asking why they were so cheap. If you had asked around, you would have learned about any incompatibilities or other issues relating to PS1 and other conventional engines, and could have made more informed buying decisions. If you bought these engines as used then you knew that they came without a warrantee. If you bought them as "new-old-stock", then a simple question of the dealer would also have yielded the knowledge that there also was no warrantee.

I consider MTH PS2 and PS3 engines as my first choice due to my personal fondness for DCS. If I were, instead, a conventional operator on a budget, I would most likely consider other options, as well.

It really isn't fair for you to criticize MTH for your uninformed purchasing decisions relating to products that MTH hasn't manufactured in the past 20 years.

Yep.....I got into scale by buying dead MTH locos KNOWING they were dead and gutting them and adding a Dallee board. (and that Dallee board worked with every brand transformer I owned....all 4 brands and multiple models)  No issue with that....I knew what I was doing. I stand by my frustration with MTH changing boats mid river.  I am a model railroader for well North of 50 years.....a retired Sr System Analyst....but  still there is a dirty secret that I did not know even after being on this forum for many many years. I can't see these issues being helpful to any new comer or helpful in growing the hobby.  Thanks for the input.....but I am not swayed at all....

btw- I have 100+ MTH and less than 20 Lionel.......but I don't see this type issue with the Lion.....why??? Or WbB?? hmmmmmmm

Dave,

I got into scale by buying dead MTH locos KNOWING they were dead and gutting them and adding a Dallee board.

So, are you complaining about buying dead engines and having to fix them? If your Dalee board conversions worked, what are you complaining about? If you conversions didn't work, how are you blaming MTH for your Frankenstein engine being incompatible with their later production transformers? 

What am I not "getting"?

I knew what I was doing.

That's obviously not the case, by your own admission:

"but  still there is a dirty secret that I did not know even after being on this forum for many many years"

So, what's the "dirty secret"? That MTH improved their engine design to be more compatible with transformers that didn't exist when PS1 engines were manufactured? Really?

As for:

"I stand by my frustration with MTH changing boats mid river."

That particular river dried up 20 years ago. Maybe it's time to move on...

 AMCDave posted:

That is all part of my frustration with MTH PS-X locos. MTH manufactured transformers Z-500-750-1000 do not operate their own equipment!!! Wrongly I assumed that a MTH transformer will operate a MTH loco.....I know I have gutted more than one PS-1 loco because my Z-750 would not operate it and I figured it was dead....maybe it was....but now I wonder!!!

What is more interesting, the first original Z4000's rated at 165VA also would not always operate "Protosound" engines.  

Been there, done it, and got the Tee shirt.  At that time had a lengthly conversation with MTH Tech when he revealed the inaccurate design assumption that those units were based upon then.

Based on "some" we should trash all are "Protosouns" and PS-2 5V systems and PS-2 3V systems for PS-3!!!!!  Like PS-3 has had NO problems and from what see here (Forum) some still do.

By the way I AM a BIG MTH fan (over ninety engines and hundreds pieces of rolling stock)  but the facts are the facts and the truth is the truth.   

PRRronbh posted:

What is more interesting, the first original Z4000's rated at 165VA also would not always operate "Protosound" engines.  

I have that same vintage of Z4000 transformer indicated by the first four digits in the Serial Number "0398". Back when I had quite a number of PS1 engines that original Z4000 performed flawlessly with all of them. Of my remaining PS1 engines, one is 1995 - 1996  vintage which I ran last week on that same z4000, again without any trouble.

While I do question the quality of the power coming from some of the early small Z-series controllers (and definitely the Lionel  CW80), Z4000's have always been solid and reliable performers.

Buying a dead loco when the seller presents it as dead....no issue. 

When a seller says a MTH loco  works perfect and then it fails when I hook it up to a MTH transformer is still an issue. I'll get over it as fast as you will see the frustration....which is never.  I'll just advise anyone that asks....buy a Lionel for starters.....

Dave,

I’ll get over it as fast as fast as you will see the frustration...which is never

Frustration is valuable so be sure to hang on to it. Remember, sometimes you may even get what you pay for.

H1000 posted:

PRRronbh posted:

What is more interesting, the first original Z4000's rated at 165VA also would not always operate "Protosound" engines.  

I have that same vintage of Z4000 transformer indicated by the first four digits in the Serial Number "0398". Back when I had quite a number of PS1 engines that original Z4000 performed flawlessly with all of them. Of my remaining PS1 engines, one is 1995 - 1996  vintage which I ran last week on that same z4000, again without any trouble.

While I do question the quality of the power coming from some of the early small Z-series controllers (and definitely the Lionel  CW80), Z4000's have always been solid and reliable performers.

Then why did MTH replace this 165VA unit with a new 180VA unit on the spot?????????

PRRronbh posted:

Then why did MTH replace this 165VA unit with a new 180VA unit on the spot?????????

IDK, call and ask them! I didn't replace mine and it (still) works great. I can still easily find many of these first run 165va Z4000s online that obviously haven't been replaced. If you have one with problems, MTH service can be reached at (401) 381-2580.

Some of the early Z4000 transformers would not go to 0.00 volts when you tried to cycle through a startup. I found that if you put a lighted caboose or passenger car behind the engine that would not cycle it freed up the reverse board and allowed the engine to run. Try this because it's easy to do and may solve your problem. Check the gauges on the transformer (Z4000) and see if there is any residual voltage even when the handles are at the supposed zero volt setting.