Pet peeve

Very interesting and good to know.

Thank you.  Your information is useful and quite interesting, particularly all the details about the canvas seats and all.  Ddin't know that.  

But I think a lot of us who did not serve in the military knew some of this, at least qualitatively.  I certainly knew about not shipping with guns, etc., and some of the other, having read a good deal of books.  

But despite that knowledge, my "war train" (roughly WWII era) bristles with guns mounted on fully outfitted tanks, half tracks, armored cars and battlefield jeeps, etc., ready to drive off the flatcars and straight into battle.    More egregious that this is the make up of the train: two dozen flats cars with armor, artillery, rockets, etc.., not boxcars for supplies, etc., and just one - count 'em, one - deuce and a half supply truck, along with three jeeps, and one staff car. .  I know enough to understand war is really about logistics and supplies, but armor and big cannons on flat cars is far, far cooler to look at on a layout.

It's just more fun that way.  Certainly no one is picking on the miltary.  I, and many other modelers, put shiny new cars on flatcars for transport: No wrappers, no protection as in the real world to hide the beauty.  Worse, I have a set of cars carrying models of early space exploration rockets: Explorer one is being shipped with the upper stages attached, and the satellite.  Shepard's rocket has the Mercury capsule attached, Titan-Gemini the Gemini capsule attached.  Totally silly, but fun.

Still, I do appreciate all the information.  It is very interesting and could be quite useful in the future.

Thanks, gents.

I may have mis-titled this post because this is not truly a peeve.

I personally love the look of armaments in or on everything from battlefield scenes to kindergarten picnics.

I just thought I'd put the info out for folks who wanted it.

I'll be building my layout based around late pre-war and early post-war Marx tin and Plasticville structures.  Realism be ****ed, I want to play with toy trains and will put whatever I want wherever I want it.

There is modeling for a "look", a "sense", and there is rivet-counting modeling.  The

rivet counter can print out your instructions for future reference. I have only thought

about military loads on railroads, wondering when they ramped up.  With GB at war

in 1939, were train loads of military armor and equipt. rolling in quantity, or did that

not take off until Pearl Harbor,  late 1941,  and the U.S. was in it?

 Realism be ****ed, I want to play with toy trains and will put whatever I want wherever I want it.

Good one!

E Co 2/5  67 68

Larry

Not being born until 3/42 I can't answer that question, but I can pose it on another site and see what turns up.

We lived in Woodland, Washington until the war ended and Mom has told me about my fascination with trains.  She said she's hold me on the kitchen table and I watch the trains headed up and down on the rails a quarter mile from the house.  Sometimes she'd take me down closer and I wave at the train crews and troops and they'd all wave back.  (I think they were waving at Mom.  She was quite a looker.)

 I have some beat up oversized Pyro military toys and I straddle the wheels right over my flatcars. And I've been known to yell "wide load" as I blow the whistle three times and pray I don't clip the pulp paper tunnel

 You'd be proud to know, the muzzles are all wrapped up tight and there are crates for each when I'm real serious about my playing.

I run a WW2 Train and I appreciate the input. I may not follow all of it and I knew some of it.

I recently chained down all the Tanks and the trucks and jeeps.

I do want to add crates on the flatcars with the dismounted machine guns and such.

I have a few logistics cars, One Flatbed 18 wheel truck, one gondola with Army crates (could use more), one Tank car for Fuel (really needs some more of these). one boxcar (needs more) and a pair of Pullman heavyweights in troop transport mode at the end. I have been known to spread some armed troops on the cars for security as well.

One glaring omission: The Sherman tank barrels are not on the lock down supports because those are glued to the hulls flat by the maker, I can't move them without risking damage.

I will be adding at least a painted on cover for the barrel ends now.

Covers for all the glass is a good point and I'll consider them.

I understand where your coming from but I would say at least 50% of train operators are not into the exact details that your discussing, now with that said I understand where your coming from ( I did 17 in the Navy) and have some real good friends that did 10 - 20 in the Marines and listen to them talk and could see them trying to model but anyway the honest way I look at a layout/collection is how that person wants to represent it. If he ask for my opinion I normally say it's yours but I might do this or that but bottom line is its what you want/can do ( I'm not that good on detail either) I'm more into a fair layout and operating it. 

Forty Rod, thanks for the input. I do not have a military train but did look into it when I was still interested in freight.

However, you can do one thing to help your point, add some images that either show and support your points and maybe even show some images that that are done wrong.

The one thing that kept me from moving forward on this type of train was the lack of armor loads for the cars...at a reasonable price for my budget. I had no interest in only doing a few flat cars so I dropped the idea.

Thanks again for the insight.

Charlie

 On the cheap, but I painted tissue paper, or maybe a paper towel, with a wash so the color just soaked in, and then used yellow bread tie to tie it, clipping the excess. 

 The paper weave resembles a canvas cover pretty well. But I wish I would have trimmed the width before I twisted  

Hi Tom • Thank-you for your service.

Look forward to getting up dates on the new layout.

Gary • Cheers from Michigan

I was in Germany in the US Army(in the late 1970's) for about three and a half years, when ever the unit(the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment) went to Graffenwohr for tank gunnery training we had to have all small weapons removed from the vehicles. No 50 caliber machine guns or 7.72 millimeter co-axial weapons allowed on transported M-60's, the main gun had to be sealed with a rubber boot. The ammo and small weapons had to sent by 5 ton cargo truck via the autobahn, NO tank rounds allowed on the train.

If we drove the tanks in military convoy to Wildflicken(a.k.a. Wild Chicken) we could have the small weapons mounted but NO ammo in any vehicle as it was piece time. Why we nick named it Wild Chicken was because the weather could turn on you very quickly, 60 degrees during the day and snow by nightfall if it waited that long.

Lee Fritz

From my brother, who was actually involved with moving tanks.

Reminds me of the fun days. 

The 12 foot wide M60A1 tank was wider than the RR car by a track width (the tank tread), so you drove it really carefully onto the car with the middle of each track hanging over the sides. 

In US, we shoved wooden wedges in front and back of the tank and nailed them down.  We also placed blocks between some (not all) of the roadwheels and nailed boards across underneath the hull.  And chained the hulls down. 

In Germany, they had metal chock blocks with “teeth” so you just drove up and crunched it into place.  Then a surge to climb forward and toss the ones behind the rear and back it down, crunching those into place.  No nailing and no interwheel blocks and boards.  Then chained and done. 

Chet

The rules for handling vehicles on trains has changed a lot between the 1940s and today. I, too, handled lots of rail movement as I was a Ordnance Officer in the Army mostly in heavy mechanized units.

I've also spend several years researching US Army RR operations during WW2.

Rod, the last time I pointed any of that out here on this forum, I got a lot of, "I'll do it the way I want" responses and I generally don't even bother anymore.

Very few people in model railroading do things that are correct. I've seen:

• OD green steam locomotives (few things make me roll me eyes harder)
• Vehicles with all the crew-served weapons still mounted on them
• "Army camp" representations showing soldiers doing one of every different kind of task there is, all within a very tight area (movies do this a lot, too) when in real life, generally, soldiers are doing the same kinds of things at the same time
• LOTS of markings on stateside vehicles that are actually from the European combat theater
• Loads incorrectly blocked and secured, if at all

I could go on...

This has been a good topic.  I have the Lionel WWII troop train.  There is no authenticity intended or implied.  It is on the layout to honor the countless thousands who won the war on the American side including my dear ole dad who was at D Day.  After the war and he and mom got married and had me, he gave me a Lionel set in 1948 which I still have.

I think if more vehicles were available in transportation mode, you would see more accurate models.  Not too many people what a tank model on their desk as you describe.  I am always fascinated by loads being shipped and saw the M1A1's going though NJ on their way to the Gulf War.

 At some point you draw the line. No squirrels in the trees, no dogs in the yard, no railroad police...

Here a link to securing military equipment.

http://www.hulcher.com/feature...ie_down_military.asp

Of course i couldn't leave without some humor... My favorite secured load:

I remember Wild chicken well. My Battalion 3/77 Ar was one of the last units to use the ranges before it was returned to the Germans in early 94. Rumor had it. That the range Meisters at Wildflicken transferred the weather machine to Graf. You could have all four seasons in one day. Speaking of weird weather, I remember doing a July rotation at CMTC(Hohenfels) and waking up to 5 inches of wet snow sitting below Old Baldie in the Alpha bowel. 

There have been times when I'd have sold one of my kids if someone had been available to do that kind of scientific tie-down for our loads.  We had one old Master Sergeant who had been an "expert" during the Korean mess, and he admitted he was out of his element.  We read the manuals and made lots of calls, but we probably got out cargos to the destination unscathed more by luck than skill.

Thanks for the update.  Looks all kinds of cool and efficient.

Heck, one the back 40 at Ft Lewis, we did a 'circle the wagons' 7-day FTX and in a 4-hour period, we had snow, hail, rain, and bright sunshine. I'll never forget when some wise-apple at the ECP and manning the Ma Duce called up the Batt net on his brick, saying, "Uh, I got this old guy in long robes, holding a stick, saying we need to 'let his people go' or he'll hit us with a plague of locusts next..." You could hear the ripple of laughter all through the BSA among the NCOs and officers who caught the Moses joke. Never did find out who that was.

 We never had a lot of trouble with rail loads, I suppose because we did it so often. I was with 3BDE, 2ID at Ft Lewis during the initial transition between Heavy Mech and what later became Stykers.

Ok As a Unit Movement officer I rail heading was part of the training. Even thought My specialty was Airfield operations. Having been stationed in Germany for most of my career Rail heads, Convoys and Airfield operations( My Last 8 yrs in Stuttgart) I became some what of an expert. MTH and Lionel will put M1A1s on TTX flat cars. Not in real life. You might see M113s or M577s on TTX cars and to a lesser extent M2/M3 Bradleys, but not Tanks, M109,etc. State side and in Germany DOD had rail cars for tracked vehicles especially for the M60A1 and the M1A1. Durring WW2 Shermans would fit on standard flat cars, Starting with the Pershing which was wider. DOD started ordering purpose built cars that were wider. With the advent of the M48s that's when the tanks were too wide to fit and you would have overhang. I am attaching a current unclass US Army TEA PAM 55-19

 To end the nit picking. During WW2 Unit markings were removed for security(OPSEC) so all you would see were the Star and US Army and USA Number. Same rule applies now. But not always followed especially units heading to NTC or JRTC in the states and in Germany to CMTC.    

Section X. Loading and Tiedown Checklist

For Vehicles on Chain Tiedown Flatcars

NOTE: Copies of this page should be distributed to loading teams.

Make certain all hood latches are secured (to avoid wind damage).

Leave at least 10 inches between vehicles.

Check for proper brake wheel clearance (see fig 1, p. 2).

Do not cross the chains.

Use symmetrical tiedown patterns (multiples of 4).

Secure tiedowns at approximately 45 degree angles.

Seat and lock chain anchor or winch.

Secure shackle in tiedown provision with wire tie or cotter pin.

Pull chain tight and attach hook above the compression unit.

Tighten chain.

Use appropriate tools.

Make sure chain is not kinked or binding.

Secure hooks with wire or nylon tie straps.

Make sure turnbuckles are wired or locked.

Tighten jamnuts with two wrenches. Lower locking sleeves.

Do not secure chains to axles or springs unless figure shows to.

Make certain turrets and guns, radiator doors, side skirts, outriggers, crane

booms, expansible van bodies, movable parts, and secondary loads are secured

from extending up or out over the side of the flatcar during transport.

 When I was in D 2/63AR, If Moses showed up and started talking about bring on the locusts next. My CO would have said bring it on. Then would have ordered a warning shot to make his point. Tankers you got to love them!!

I have been to Graf 3 times with the 11th ACR, B troop twice and once with HHT 1/11 ACR(our nick name from one of the cooks was '11th animated cartoon review'). One of our sergeants forgot to lock the castle nut on a 5 ton cargo truck's axle assembly, a couple hours later he had to go down to range 79 with a 5 ton wrecker to recover the truck as it threw an axle(brake hub & both duals, also instant service brake loss[parking brake still worked]) into the snow.

Another place I was at was Vilseck for TVM (track vehicle mechanic) refresher course, TDy as they called it. Got to go by train by myself twice while in Fulda Germany.

Lee Fritz

As an army guy, if I saw a train go by somewhere here in Georgia with real armament or machine guns loaded out in the open I would probably get peeved.  But if I see some army jeeps with mounted 105 howitzers on railcars running around a toy train layout I just smile (and conjure up some old memories).

While I can see the appeal of the protypical side of things, I am of the school where trains are simply toys, and toys are fantasy and fun.  Heck, I still think my original Cape Canaveral rocket launcher is still more exciting than when the Mets won the series in '69.

Ed

Does this look ok sorry just had to take some military pictures. National guard rolling into Baltimore to take the city back. 

Actually, that's not at all true for WW2. I have countless photos of CONUS rail movements during WW2 where you can see the markings. Where they got covered, if at all, was in the darkroom if photos were published to the press at the time. If you know where to look, it's easy to see where it was done after the shot was taken. Sometimes, the signal corps unit would add their own unit marking to a shot of vehicle bumpers, so they'd get credit for the shot itself, but those were usually in the combat theaters where it occurred.

These days, it's easy to see them as well in the states. I recently saw my own Humvee on a train about 2 years ago, coming back from NTC. Not one marking was covered. I work today across from the yard at Dupont, WA and see unit equipment on DOD flats all the time and their unit markings are never covered.

Thanks, Lee!

I also just visited your excellent website. Great job on that and your modeling!