Phasing 2 Z4000s with a 180 Brick question

First, you cannot connect a 180 watt brick in parallel with the output of anything other than another 180 watt brick. The reason is the 180 watt bricks, besides having the same output charistics, have a suffisticated current monitoring breaker system that is much faster than the normal breaker. It is quite possible that you may have damaged the Z-4000 or the 180 watt brick. When phasing transformers the idea is to connect only one side of the transformers together, the other side of each transformer is used to power different circuits that MAY have a TEMPORARY and momentary connection together.

Second, to my knowledge only one manufacturer has ever recomended connecting two transformers together and that was Lionel and only with the 180 watt bricks when used with the TPC 400. It is not a good practice as any imbalance in the transformers can result in large short circuit currents. There is also a hazard that if for some reason one transformer stops putting out, gets unpluged, the other will back feed and you will end up with 110 volts at the open plug end. It is much like trying to couple two gas engines together, one will try to pull the other if not tuned together. One should never attempt to connect two transformers together if one or both of them has a variable output. You will never get them tunned to each other.

Al

You probably should invest in a O gauge wiring handbook, transformer phasing is usually covered, as well as other useful 3-rail layout electrical wiring information.

To phase transformers the plug is switched at the outlet. With three wire outlets, this may require replacing the plug on the transformer electrical cord.

Reversing the plug at the outlet will reverse the phase of all the output terminals. Many train transformers had more than one output and reversing the plug reverses the phase and still keeps the common terminal common. In addition if you have a keyed plug or one with a ground pin and do not wish to modify the plug obtain a two to three prong adaptor. Modify the adaptor and plug the transformer into the adaptor. You can then turn the adaptor around without damaging the transformer plug.

Al

Matthew:    While it was not mentioned here yet, I'll note it for you. You did not state when your  Lionel  180  "Brick" was produced.  Some earlier units were made with the  110/120 line voltage  wiring reversed at the factory where they were made. Off hand I do not remember the date code on the bottom of the  180 brick that was used to indicate the suspect units. Perhaps others can recall that bit of info for you.  Lionel did issue an adapter plug for the 18V output wire/plug that corrected this. You seem to have bypassed the plug end and are just using the bare wiring for connections to the track.

          When phasing transformers,  ONLY  the ground (-) sides of the transformers are connected together to be phased; as was stated, you  DO NOT   connect the hot (+) terminals together unless you are using one of the  TPC's and follow it's directions.

          As a few words of caution, your isolated/insulated railyard will have a ful 18V on the track and hopefully your are only running Command Control Locomotives, as any conventional units that enter that yard will make a mad dash for the end of rail bumpers, since you will not have any voltage control  from the  180 brick to the rails.  Hope this helps. Dennis M.

Swapping the AC plug is a universal solution.  If you open your "brick" and there are NO electronics and you're just looking at a coil wound AC transformer, you could just swap low voltage wires. 

Here is a safe method for phasing modern transformers and "bricks".  http://www.slsprr.net/technical/phasing.htm

For some bricks you would need a test plug with tails on it to plug into low voltage power from brick.

From the Lionel web site:

Any 180W Powerhouse with a date code of 2000 48 or lower is out-of-phase with other transformers.

Since you are using two manufacturers power supplies I would still check that they are in phase as others described above.

Matt, you are suffering from misinformation and incorrect application. I and others have never suggested that both terminals of the transformers, Common and Hot, be connected together to check for phasing. This may work in some cases but in most cases will result in failure as is the case with you. As I said before, one should Never, NEVER, let me repete that, Never! connect a fixed transformer like a brick to a variable transformer like the Z-4000. You will never get them to work together in parallel properly.

The easiest and safestest way to check transformer phasing is to connect the common terminals together. Now connect a light bulb, almost any will do except a LED. One that has a voltage of 20 to 28 volt is best but others will work. Connect the light bulb between the hot terminals of both transformers. Turn on both transformers and set them both to the same or approximately the same voltage. If the transformers are in phase the light will be out or very dim in brightness. Changing the voltage of either transformer will cause the light to get brighter. If one of the transformers is a brick such as the 180 then set the z-4000 to 18 volts and the light should be out. Please bare in mind that if you use a lamp that has a low voltage rating you could easily burn it out as the voltage could reach 40 volts with some transformers. If the light is very bright then the transformers are out of phase. Simply turn over one of the plugs and try again.

It is a simple process and should cause little trouble.

Al

Using a light bulb to check phasing is a neet little circus trick because as you raise the voltage on one transformer the light actually gets dimmer instead of brighter.

Al

One - two - three ----- nine - ten! Sorry, I tried counting but it dosen't seem to work.

Dear SnowmanJohn,

I will try to remain calm lest I upset others and outlive my welcome. Do you not read? We just cleared up some miss information for an indivual that does not understand all the in's and out's of transformer power. And now here you come and tell him that it is perfectly fine to connect Z4000's in parallel. If you have done this at home I will pray for you but please don't confuse people by passing on incorrect information. The laws of electronics are firm. You cannot connect a 12 volt source in parallel with a 16 volt source and expect to draw power from both. The lower voltage one will attempt to draw power from the higher voltage one. Only when both have the same voltage can power be drawn from each. The fact that you have not gone up in smoke only attest to the excellent design of the Z-4000 and its ability to protect you from your folly.

Please, just because something seems to work for you does not mean that you are correct and that it will work for everyone else. All it takes is someone to ASSUME something else and we will have a member with burned and damaged equipment or worse.

Thank you and sorry for the rant.

Al Werder

OGR Magazine Run255, Backshop article, answered this question.

Where is your magazine?