Postwar Originals vs Postwar Celebration Series

Being one of the younger heads in the hobby (age 20 currently), it sometimes depends on the specific piece, since I own both originals and Postwar reproductions. It also depends on how much better or worse the new version compares to the original.

In terms of the Texas Special, it's easy to see why the PWC version is now more desirable than the original. Not only was it made superbly and came with amazing sounds, but the equally attractive matching passenger cars (which Postwar Lionel didn't make) are equally as desirable and hard to find. Plus the fact the original 2245 is only single motored and is the third most common F-3 from the Postwar era.

The original 773 Hudson, on the other hand, is still quite scarce and valuable, hence why it holds up a higher premium better and longer. I own the Century 773 version, and I think it's much better looking than the original with more detail, though the only catalog illustration of it didn't really show it's true form well. The sounds are great and it runs much quieter than the original. Despite it's value depreciating as most modern Hudsons do (since they are some of the most frequently done engines by manufacturers in the Modern Era), it still commands a good premium and is harder to find than most of the other Lionel modern Hudsons, though I would say it's much more affordable than the original.

Continuing on with another side, the 6250 Seaboard NW-2 is relatively easy to find and not the most valuable Postwar loco. I picked up mine for about $200, in C6+ condition, with the rubber stamped wide space lettering. The reissue from 1998 is nice, but also relatively scarce and commanding more than an original in adequate condition, I decided it to opt for the original, which I upgraded with a DC whistle relay to give it Teledyne Uncoupling.

It seems that price, rarity, and overall features in a piece seems to determine what version is more appealing.

I think it depends on whether you are a collector or an operator. From a collectibility point of view, an original is an original and a reproduction is a copy. If you want to operate it, that's different. A really pristine original may be "too valuable to run" and there are plenty of folks who like to run postwar style trains but would just as soon do without the maintenance issues. I have some original PW on display shelves (including my trains from when I was a kid), and a couple of original operating accessories on the layout, but 90% of the "postwar" that I actually operate is PWC, Conventional Classics, or ordinary Lionel reissues like the 6464 boxcars. 

My thoughts echo John's above. I purchased (and admire) the original postwar 2373 CP passenger set simply because it is "the original". I also have the PWC version, and to me there is no question it looks and runs better than "the original". I suspect many owners (including myself) have now moved on from the 2002 PWC version, to the even better looking and running version released in 2010 with the Legacy-equipped engines and the "scale-sized" cars.

I am 37 and have been collecting Lionel for almost 30 years. I respect the postwar Era and have many items. I love the look and feel of postwar items and layouts,  Its what I was exposed to as a youngster, before all the days of O gauge Scale Realism. I prefer the "toy rail/toy look". I also grew up with Bachmann and Tyco HO trains as well as Lionel.

The PWC/Conventional Classic series is a chance to own a piece of Lionel History. Instead of paying some of the outrageous prices for postwar thats not always in great condition, you get a chance to own a brand new item, thats been updated with sounds,operation, decoration and control. I have collected just about the entire Lionel PWC and Conventional Classic Series, and I truly love them. I really would love for it to continue. I am both and operator and collector, and EVERYTHING I OWN, Postwar, Collector Line MPC, LTI, and the newer stuff all gets a good run on my temporary set up. There are a few more items I would like Lionel to resurrect under the PWC/Conventional Classic Series.

To me, the Postwar Celebration Series is more desirable,because it was made when I was "here" :-)

I'm about to do this to my Seaboard switcher.  Can you post a wiring diagram?  thanks

I don't really view the PWC as a series, just as traditional sets. If I like them, I buy them. If I come across an original at a reasonable price, I would rather have that though.

I like shiny and new, so it's the PWC and CC for me mostly.  Oddly enough I have both a postwar 6250 and the remake with TMCC.  The first Lionel loco I ever saw back in the 1950s it has nostalgic value to me.

Same here Mark - I was born (1958) at the tail end of the Postwar era so do have memories of originals my dad had and that my friends ran on their layouts. I do buy some Postwar stuff now, but also love being able to buy the remakes of these classics in "new" condition through the PWC and Classic Celebration series. By the way, I did purchase the 1999 Texas Special PWC AB set when it came out and it is still among my favorites. Lionel got those just right!

Ditto on shiny and new. If it hasn't been remade then I'll buy it and restore it to shiny and new. 

Pete

I have postwar equipment from my dad and love it all.  It has a worth far beyond its value in dollar terms.  That being said, if buying trains that do not have a family history attached to them, I generally balk at the cost of quality condition original postwar and will buy the PWC item.  Now, as far as CC goes, I am not as big a fan -- too many problems relative to the PWC equipment I own.  But that is a different discussion.

This is also found on TM's website www.toytrainrevue.com under Layout Tips, Bill~

I run PWC engines with my original rolling stock. Since I have an all command DCS/TMCC layout I like running postwar in a command environment. (sounds/couplers) I also feel that the CC line did a better job on the rolling stock. I like the bar end trucks on the CC rather than the what they did with the PWC did with the sprung trucks.  I am working on using CC to fill in PW gaps and will remove PWC rolling stock.  I my opinion, I feel that to get the true PW feel, you need the PWC engines matched with the CC cars and stop selling them in sets. Sell them all as single items.

Here's a fact some PW fans never seem to get straight.

Discounting the silly argument Lionel is not the same Lionel, it is a "reissue" not a reproduction and not a copy when it is made again by the same company (Lionel) that produced the original issue.

One could make a good argument PW issues made after 2001 are produced by Chinese subcontractors and not by Lionel so they can be described as a reproduction.  

The reissued Texas Special has alot going for it. Its a better product then the first issue and was produced here in America by Lionel.

Probably the single best reason (common sense) the set has become more valuable then the original. 

Joe

I'm 39 and I really like the ones I have had.  This includes most of the sets, including the Congressional and 13150 773 set, and all the PWC F3's.  I'm also going to include some of the more recent LCCA offerings such as the NH Alco set.

I liked them for 3 reasons:

1.)  Very little to no chance of getting a forgery on rare items

2.)  New paint and modern decals vs. 60 year old originals that are very fragile

3.)  Ability to get true MIB condition and run it without paying a premium or loss of

      investment

That being said, I also think the inclusion of TMCC/Legacy and railsounds is a bad idea on these.  IMO - the direction of the Conventional Classics series was a better idea and execution of the concept.

I like the PWC series even though I also love original vintage Lionel trains.

The reason I prefer the PWC series over vintage is the fact that I feel the PWC series is safer, and more energy efficient, as well as not requiring as much maintenance, or over priced parts hunting.

I do take my vintage trains out once in awhile, but many such as the early lionel Alcos suffer from warping due to heat on the body tops.

I would rather use the PWC as prime runners and just take the older trains out for special occassions.

ok c.sam, I am MAD at you!

I thought I had shook the Lionel Post War addiction, and had made what I thought was a firm decision to only buy Long Island Railroad and/or MTH trains....no.......because of your post I am now surfing the web trying to find PWC trains!

Between your post and my new job, I can see the boxes arriving from UPS very soon!

And when my wife yells at me, I am going to have her contact you!

I need intervention!

Here is my return shot to you :

http://nassauhobby.com/Postwar...-A-and-DMY-A-B-2356/

Take that!

quote:

Here's a fact some PW fans never seem to get straight.

Discounting the silly argument Lionel is not the same Lionel, it is a "reissue" not a reproduction and not a copy when it is made again by the same company (Lionel) that produced the original issue.

I'll hazard a guess, and state that most postwar collectors don't see much difference between a reissue and a reproduction, they want the original.

Well-stated. 

Sorry 'bout that Chip - please don't give my number to your wife!!!

Also don't buy that No 2356 PWC Southern for north of $700 either. These come up for bid/sale from time to time at much lower prices. I was looking for a set several years ago and saw them go for as low as $325 and usually for less than $400. 

The Williams "Golden Memories" versions of the iconic PW F3's can be a good choice for conventional operators too. The paint is beautiful on most of them and they are easy to find...

I have an original #671, but that's it for anything postwar or PWC. It was my first loco. I got it 4 years ago for my 8th birthday.

It runs like a champ!!!

I agree c.sam, in fact those Williams locos look just as good, if not better, and cost so much less.

I have 2 Williams scale GG-1's that I paid peanuts for, and they dont make me cringe when I look at them, unlike other locos, that I cannot believe I purchased at a given price.

I do have the Lionel PWC series powered A Unit, and I am waiting to find a good price on the Superbass B unit.

Being younger than most glaciers and mountain ranges, I qualify as a "younger collector/operator." When I was even younger and starting out in the hobby, I quickly shied away from Postwar, because most of it seemed pretty beat up, and often a bit dull. I gravitated toward the new, more colorful MPC stuff. 

Today, I like the PWC items, because while it's reminiscent of the PW pieces, it looks even better than they looked when new, given modern paint processes, etc. Plus they have important modern amenities like TMCC and R/S, which are mandatory for me. 

I have a few Postwar pieces, which I do like because they were made when I was a kid and remind me of those days, and it's neat to handle something made that long ago, but other than that the traditional engines I have are all PWC.

Split all the semantic hairs you like, the central truth remains: either it's an original or it isn't. Reissue, reproduction, copy - if you're a collector, it's not an original. 

"Split all the semantic hairs you like, the central truth remains: either it's an original or it isn't. Reissue, reproduction, copy - if you're a collector, it's not an original."

All well and good, and I agree it's mostly semantics.  If originals turn you on, have at it. 

Personally, I refuse to sing the Star Spangled Banner unless I have Francis Scott Key's original manuscript nearby.  No hand written copies, xeroxes or photoshopped wannabe texts for me . 

Easy to find amusement in the obsessions of others that one doesn't share.  When I hear that Lionel isn't the real Lionel, I'm inclined to think that even the Constitution has been amended, so it's probably not the "real Constitution" of our founding fathers. Steve Jobs is dead, but my iPhone works fine. Each to his own .

"The Lionel Corporation no longer exists as an entity."

Neither do my great-grandparents.  Does that mean that I'm not connected to them in various profound and meaningful ways,  or that they are irrelevant to their descendants?  Corporations, owners, stockholders all pass from the scene.  It's the natural order.  That doesn't mean there aren't deeply profound and meaningful (to those who wish to see what is there) connections between what has passed and what now is.   Everything is dust in the end.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist or world class philosopher to understand why some people in the industry or hobby want to label Lionel as "dead," and the present company as some sort of illegitimate offspring.   It suits their needs and belief structures.  I  think that those whose needs and belief structures see the relationship of the current Lionel to the various previous incarnations (regardless of bankruptcies, transfers of ownership and location of business) are well founded in fact,  and pragmatic views of how values and property are passed from generation to generation.  Change is not only a good idea, it's the law of nature.

Throughout the decades,  the owners and workers at Lionel, whatever its corporate organization, have emphasized the importance of the stewardship of a 100+ year old enterprise as being important to them.  It's puzzling why some in the hobby don't accept that simple equation.  Originals are originals, and contemporary products are not originals.  But a close to perfect or even better (less damaged) copy of a Vermeer is still beautiful and meaningful, albeit worth much less on the open market.

Wow Neil, I'll have to write this on my calendar as a red-letter day, as this is one of those rare occasions since almost when this forum was started where I actually agree with you!

I think these newer sets are a great idea.  What the train is worth to me has nothing to do with its market value, just whether I like it and it looks good and runs well, so I'd rather have a new one and leave the few originals out there for those who treasure them (and are willing to pay the price!).

Well said...

You'd think after years of decline in the TCA, a museum run amuck and the transformation of York into a  boring twice yearly new product clearance center, the remaining Lionel PW era collectors would get the hint something is amiss with their narrow thought processes.   

Joe

Not really such a big deal. Everybody likes Vermeers.

I'm 43, so don't know if I'm old or young.

I lean towards original postwar Lionel, if the price is right. I try and find the best condition for the best price. When that isn't possible, I opt for the new stuff. I've got the CC GG1 set that everyone hates (mine runs great), because I can't afford an original with the stripes intact. On the other hand, I have a pretty nice 2344 AA set, that I wouldn't replace with a new shiny one. Same goes for postwar steamers. They are pretty easy to find in good condition, and run well. Sometimes the new shine just doesn't look right.

They're all good. I like them all.

That's what I like to see -- inclusiveness and respect for others in the hobby.

The PWC Texas Special, as pretty as it is, has very little in common with the F3 produced in the 1950's. The Texas Special from the 1950's had the horizontal drive (single motor) and completely different chassis, truck and truck blocks from that of the PWC. Other than the plastic shell, the PWC Texas Special (and 2343's, WP, Southern, NYC 2344's) are completely different production, both cosmetically and mechanically, and share practically nothing from the PW production runs.   

All that one needs to do is take a ruler and measure the spacing between the wheels on the truck block. On the horizontal drive the spacing measures to be a scale 9 feet (2 and 1/4 inches) where as on the PWC the wheel spacing is a scale 8 feet 6 inches (2 and 1/8 inches). In 1955 Lionel began to drastically change the F3 to incorporate the vertical 2028 motor. All subsequent F3's are based upon the 1955/1956 design change. 

Just a note here Chip to clear something up. I mentioned the Williams versions of the PW F3s for CONVENTIONAL (only) operators. To be clear - they are indeed very nice, almost bulletproof for operators, but if you are considering upgrading them to command, it can become cost prohibitive.

Consider paying $150 (used) to $225 or so for their typical F3 AA pair. Add ERR w/cruise for $85 - $100 and then add sound for $100 and you have $335 - $425 which is often more than what you can find the PWC ABAs for. This is performing the installations yourself. Ditto for a RK Scale F3 ABA and with the MTH you get smoke too.

Too many choices....

Here's our RK scale Texas Special that I bought for $300. Beautiful locomotive with smoke, cruise, & sound. Visually similar to the Lionel PWC Texas Special but has smoke and cruise as a bonus at much less $$$. Hard to beat that...

Personally, I'd like to eventually have the full-scale F3s in the several PW schemes like the Lionel scale 2343, 2373, and the MTH Premiere Texas Special

Sorry if i'm late to this topic, but I do consider myself a young postwar operator/collector so i wanted to throw in my 2 cents.  I'm now 24, but I recieved my first postwar set probably when I was 8 (even had original boxes!).   All the trains have been in boxes for the past 6 years, but I still pick up some good deals when I can find them (dreaming of when I can build a layout again).   I have a few PWC pieces I picked up with gift cards/as gifts, they are relieable, and blend with my PW stuff (except they don't have as much dust!).  As a teenager money was always the first thought when I was looking for new items, so I taught myself how to repair PW and started buying up older items that needed maintenance.  I didn't mind the labor as it was/is all part of the experience to me.  I've built a pretty good collection on short money this way so although the PWC is nice, I still find the better value in the original PW.

I would agree with the better value in the original PW. Besides don't mind getting my hands dirty.

Thanks c.sam!

Yep, I recently bought that Lionel PWC Southern ABA set for $400.

I liked it so much, I bought the PWC "FatBoy Speaker" B-Unit for it as well.

But, as you say...do not buy at above certain price points.

I have found it very hard to find good deals on PWC Engines and/or sets.

So hard in fact, that I actually prefer at this point to just buy the Legacy AAs as they cost the same or less than most of those PWC's.

I cancelled my Neil Young Texas Special set for the 2nd time now..Nassau Hobby announced the new MTH LIRR C-Liners and those were more of a must have than my beloved Lionel Neil Young TxSpec set.

That will just have to wait.

The CC 613 Union Pacific switcher has dropped in price, but the chassis runs so much better than the true PW. I've got three of four of the new 613's, but I've switched shells with some of my original PW shells to get the better runner on my layout. I've also got a 2328 (I think is the number?) Burlington GP7 shell running on my true PW chassis, only because I wanted that nice clean silver, without the premium price tag.