Postwar Transformers

If you are running Post-War trains, which include in my mind, MPC era trains, then a ZW, KW or any of the more powerful transformers of that era will be your power source of choice.  A reconditioned ZW can be had for well under $200.00.  However, be sure of what you're buying if you pick one up at a train meet.  If the seller cannot be sure that it has been reconditioned, ask if you can have it checked out.  Some train meets have test tracks and there may be a knowledgable person at the test track with the correct equipment to do a test for you.  

There are members here more knowledgable than I on this subject and I'm sure one of them will chime in soon.  

On the eBay and this forum are TCA members that will stand behind reconditioned (is there any other kind?) KWs and ZWs.  That's how I got mine.  Decent prices and they have never failed.  The KW in 1998 and the ZW in 2012.  Highly recommended.

POTRZBE posted:

On the eBay and this forum are TCA members that will stand behind reconditioned (is there any other kind?) KWs and ZWs.  That's how I got mine.  Decent prices and they have never failed.  The KW in 1998 and the ZW in 2012.  Highly recommended.

The other kind would be not reconditioned.....LOL.....I couldn't resist.  

You said your local hobby store went through it.  around here  there are many available for $150 and do a good job. I use two plus a Z on my two layouts with tubular track.  You can add  circuit breakers but I haven't yet.

Personally, I prefer the new modern transformers, but I have command control only and mostly PS3 engines. I think the older transformers are fine (if they have been thoroughly checked out and properly repaired) for postwar stuff. If using the older ones with electronic engines I would make sure you got fast acting breakers for all the train outputs. From what I have read here on the forum the old ZW's only output slightly more than a PH-180, like 200-220 watts or so or about like 2 - Z1000s. They are supposed to be rated on input whereas the modern stuff is rated on output, so would a ZW be enough for you?

Around here the old ZWs are around $200-$225 so I got my 2 PH-180s for about $80-$85 each or less than a ZW. If one ZW would be enough power then a Z4000 would be about twice that of a ZW and also has 10 volt and 14 volt acc outputs which I am thinking might be like 3 amps each (or something like that?). I am also thinking they are selling for somewhere in the upper $300s? That may be a little low, could be low $400s by now, it's been a while since I last looked at any.

I would like a ZWL too, but it's too much for me. I understand the cost involved in getting one and that is why I don't have one. Fortunately I have DCS and run everything with a couple of PH-180s, but that won't work too well for conventional only. Well maybe it could, but the DCS system would be another $300 or so and last I heard there won't be any PH-180s until August. That would also be more than a Z4000. I probably really muddled things up for you here, sorry... was just throwing things out for some thought here.

Old reconditioned ZWs work great for accessory power. With the 4 adjustable outputs you can't beat them for accessory power.

I prefer PowerMaster/PowerHouse combo with a Cab1.  TMCC Conv.

Nothing like a classic pre/postwar transformer! I always go through mine before putting them in service, but they last and provide clean pure sine wave output.

  I've only used one MTH unit. I didn't like it strictly based on ergonomics of the small handle and small arc. I grabbed it in the center like a dial mostly. I think it might have been a chopped wave too, but what I ran didn't seem to mind.

You should use a power strip, or two, with a breaker in it, and check both the outlet amp rating, wire gauge to the outlet, and fuse/breaker box for the home.

   The old ZW is basically four throttles. Two long ones, two short ones. Most folks use the short ones for accessories, but that could get you in trouble if you only need say 5-6v for a circuit and someone slides that inner,short throttle to 100%. But you won't have lack of power, lol, it's a gem.

You could use your present unit and the ZW. (Two transformers must be phased. Easy, I did it as a kid. Lionel has a YouTube video on it, and watching it is a lesson you might want to take regardless. It won't put you to sleep, and Mike did a great job explaining ac waves.

   The long handle positioning is ideal for running in my opinion. It's perfect for reacting quickly to "danger". You can easily bat them down with a backhand, or elbow if needed.(the big 2 anyhow)

  The KW normally at about half the price of a ZW has accessory constant voltage posts and 2 throttles.(180w). The VW is the same 180w in a ZW case. The KW is pretty easy to handle too.

  For a fast visual check - Pop the top (easy, 4 screws, [& kw handles],now lift). Look that the contact arms aren't discolored from heat, they should be replaced. WATCH that the rollers roll WELL vs slide. Move them slow and fast, watch close. New rollers and rivets were about $3 for plenty enough to make a few mistakes the last I did one. Might be a little more now, but not much.

Along the rollers pathway going across the windings (wipers on small units), look for wear or sawing (from arms with broken rollers). Deep wear and damage on windings limits max output drastically. Pop your top every so often and check them. If you note a change in feel too; don't wait.

   If your trains have plenty of power already, an extra 1032, 1033, or 1044 would give you up to 90w (60 or 70w for 1032) on constant 5v, 11v posts or u&a 5v-15v throttle or 0v-11v u&b.

Oh,  The LW is the post war "one throttle power house". Compact, cool lighted dial, and accessory posts.(110w I think). Considering the KW is 90w per throttle, the use of two LWs looks pretty good. But I also like the rollers of the KW for wear consideration over a wiper, and easy replacement too. Tough choice.

The LW always seemed a touch more brittle to me though.

Tandem Associates covers other options and lists the wattage and features pretty well including some prewar too (R,RS,S,T,V,Z are similar builds in older cases.)

Accessories posts aren't all protected by the internal breaker, so add one. Or use a fuse, which can allow a closer match to your amp use. Lamps and accessories don't derail either, so a fuse works well there.

As noted, there are various wattages that use the same cases. It's not totally unheard of for a 1032, 1043, or a VW to end up with a 1033, 1044, or ZW case. Buyer beware . An output test on amps would be needed to know for sure. Just running a big engine on the 60-90w units and you can guess pretty easy though, 60-70w might not cut it, let alone ever allow a rollover with a load.

Finally the TW. Not my favorite to run on. Kinda weak, two sets of smaller windings vs one hefty.  BUT for accessories only, I'd easily consider it. It does have a good selection of constant voltages.

My only objection to the LWs is that they're counterintuitive.  Chop the power like you would on a 1033, for example, and you're at full blast on a LW.  I've had equipment hit the floor because a tyro did just that...

Mitch

Take a look at "Z" transformers for accessory power. They have four adjustable outputs and plenty of power. I always used external circuit breakers in this application too.

There's nothing wrong with a properly reconditioned post war transformer, and I think a ZW or KW makes a great choice for accessory power.  I would recommend adding a thermal circuit breaker in the 5 to 7 amp range to each output for a cost effective solution for protection.  

For the absolute best bang for your buck, however there are two other options out there for accessory power.  First, if you need AC power you can use a landscaping lighting transformer.  These output a constant, nominal 12 VAC.  you can get a 300 watt, brand new, transformer for as little as a hundred bucks at your local home improvement store.  

For lighting, where DC is just as effective as AC, you can use computer power supplies.  A typical low end, $25 power supply will easily supply 12VDC at 20 amps or more. More expensive power supplies can provide over 60 Amps.  If you have an old desk top laying about somewhere, know someone that does, or want to put a little effort into asking around, you can often get a power supply for free as well.  

JGL

I'm biased because I have a PW-style toy train layout so naturally the classic ZW was for me. Runs two trains and LOTS of accessories and lighting. Nothing like a ZW. 

I got one right here on the forum.

What's the average cost of having a ZW transformer reconditioned? Or a KW or LW Transformer?

Is there still a OGR forum member that reconditions them? 

Sean

Jim Lawson reconditions them.

We sell our ZW, KW, TW, LW, RW & 1033 reconditioned transformers w/ a guarantee for 2 years.  Rebuild of a ZW is normally between $50-60, depending on needs. This would include line cord, rollers & pins, recalibrate circuit breaker or replace using a 'load' unit, bulbs, nuts and replacement 'studs' . All of these things where required. Also replace selenium rectifier w/ diodes and appropriate resistance wire.  RW & 1033 use our own 'quick blow, self resetting circuit breakers.  ZW's retail for $225.00, KW's $139.95.  I know there are a lot of bargains out there, but, "BE CAREFUL"  !!!   Harry

I replaced the rollers on my ZW and KW transformers last year.  Not the simplest job in the world but managed it successfully.  I did this without any instruction, but I'm sure there must be a standard method of doing the task that would have saved me some frustration during the process.  

I agree with C.W. for the best bang for the buck, it is hard to beat the "Z" 250 watts and 4 dials, if using for accessories(as the OP stated) the Z is a GREAT choice, not as Iconic as the ZW, but still a great looking Post War transformer. The "V" is the 150 watt version in the same housing.

 The LW, has great looks and 125 watts, I have never had one, but I have always liked the looks of the LW, I have been tempted though, my LTS has a nice looking LW for $59.00.

Doug

Yep a Z is kinda a  ZW with dials vs handles.. Rated the same.

You kinda lost me on the slang Mitch. But I think you mean how you set it up for drawing off the posts. The tap wire from the windings to posts for the LW are set up different from the 1033 family. The Tw too, at least.  The single lionel train transformers also usually have the common on posts on the opposite letters than a lionel multi train transformer does. That might come into play on certain accessories, I'm not too sure offhand. I guess it would depend on if it shared a common with the track or not.

I bought a kW from Hennings about 7 years ago. Had a couple cw's die on me since then but the kW was used on the Christmas layout with 2 sets running plus a few accessories. No issues at all. I think the kW is the best bang for your buck.

Harry Henning posted:

We sell our ZW, KW, TW, LW, RW & 1033 reconditioned transformers w/ a guarantee for 2 years.  Rebuild of a ZW is normally between $50-60, depending on needs. This would include line cord, rollers & pins, recalibrate circuit breaker or replace using a 'load' unit, bulbs, nuts and replacement 'studs' . All of these things where required. Also replace selenium rectifier w/ diodes and appropriate resistance wire.  RW & 1033 use our own 'quick blow, self resetting circuit breakers.  ZW's retail for $225.00, KW's $139.95.  I know there are a lot of bargains out there, but, "BE CAREFUL"  !!!   Harry

The ZW pricing here is exactly the same at my LHS. I think the other prices are very close too, but I haven't followed those as closely at my LHS like I have the ZW's. They don't have a lot of inventory of those either, but do usually have a couple of ZWs.

I certainly agree with 'buyer beware' on the bargain units.

If I were foolish enough to want to buy a ZW from an unknown entity at a train meet, I would not rely on testing it there.  It should be opened up to visually check the internal wiring, the general condition of the windings, and whether the rollers have worn to the point that the winding are damaged.  Damaged windings cannot be repaired.

I have a couple, plus a KW, which I use with external breakers.  Since they feed TIUs, the handles rarely get moved.  In one way they are better than Z4000s---they have 4 outputs capable of (IN THE AGGREGATE) providing full power, whereas the accessory terminals on the Z4000 are limited in amperage and voltage.

Adriatic posted:

You kinda lost me on the slang Mitch. But I think you mean how you set it up for drawing off the posts.

No, I mean how the handles on 'em operate.  The LW accelerates counterclockwise (simulating an actual diesel throttle), whereas most transformers accelerate clockwise... 

Mitch

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

The LW accelerates counterclockwise (simulating an actual diesel throttle), whereas most transformers accelerate clockwise...  

Mitch

Simple fix - just mount the LW on it's side so the handle works just like the left "D" handle of the ZW.

I believe that the unique arrangement of the top binding posts in a transformer this size indicates that Lionel may have considered this mounting option for the LW, although never referenced anywhere. The direction & whistle buttons also were placed strategically for easy operation in this position.

I have seen KWs mounted sideways, like the right side of a ZW, with both handles now operating like the  ZW "A" & "B". I Think it was on Ralph Johnson's layout.

Never thought about mounting them on their sides. Cool idea !!

I use a post war ZW and KW transformers. I have found that some of my engines won't run on the newer transformers(Z-1000), they just sit there and buzz, the one that does this is a Weaver U33C with a QSI circuit board in it.

Also added better circuit protection for each output on my post war ZW, added in a 7 amp circuit breaker at each output; A to D. And for my modern engines I added a Transient Voltage Suppressor.

In my opinion use a post war transformer for a post war engines and a new transformer for a new engine. Some times the new transformers don't put out the proper sign wave for the older engines to run with and can confuse the whistle motors in some of the post war steam tenders.

I am not 100% sure what is going on with some of the newer Lionel transformers, the new ZW-C & ZW-L, as I have been reading some really bad experiences on this forum and one other forum that the newer Lionel transformers are falling apart(handles falling off) or sending voltage(A terminal sent to D terminal) out whatever terminal they choose to. Just from following the posts of the forums I read I would never buy a newer or higher watt transformer then the MTH Z-1000.

Lee Fritz

Everything here but my KW and Z has seen side mounting.

Which reminds me that accessories  don't need the horn circuit so other brands might work out too.

The ZW pricing here is exactly the same at my LHS.

Train show pricing for clean, as-is ZW transformers is around $100 in my area.

We don't have any very exciting train shows around here, mostly the smaller scales, HO & N. I haven't been in a while, but don't recall ever seeing much in the way of transformers at any I have been to. Not a lot of O gauge either. Most of it looked like parts donors with mint pricing.

phillyreading posted:

I am not 100% sure what is going on with some of the newer Lionel transformers, the new ZW-C & ZW-L, as I have been reading some really bad experiences on this forum and one other forum that the newer Lionel transformers are falling apart(handles falling off) or sending voltage(A terminal sent to D terminal) out whatever terminal they choose to. Just from following the posts of the forums I read I would never buy a newer or higher watt transformer then the MTH Z-1000.

Well, I can speak from personal experience that using a portable generator will fry a CW-80, while postwar transformers take it in stride...

This is also where I got in the habit of bringing backup transformers to displays and such...

Mitch

SJC,

   There is a gentlemen right here on our OGR Forum, his name is Jim Lawson, he reconditions and sells ZW and KW transforms, I purchased both a reconditioned ZW & KW from him, he does great work, and does not over charge for his Transformers, he is the man I recommend when a member is wanting to acquire a good  ZW or KW Transformer.  IMO Jim Lawson is the man to see.

PCRR/Dave

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

phillyreading posted:

I am not 100% sure what is going on with some of the newer Lionel transformers, the new ZW-C & ZW-L, as I have been reading some really bad experiences on this forum and one other forum that the newer Lionel transformers are falling apart(handles falling off) or sending voltage(A terminal sent to D terminal) out whatever terminal they choose to. Just from following the posts of the forums I read I would never buy a newer or higher watt transformer then the MTH Z-1000.

Well, I can speak from personal experience that using a portable generator will fry a CW-80, while postwar transformers take it in stride...

This is also where I got in the habit of bringing backup transformers to displays and such...

Mitch

That's a new one on me about the CW-80! Never heard about frying one with a generator, so a new strike against the CW-80, a.k.a. "can't work 80!"

Lee Fritz

I don't know why a portable generator would fry a transformer, since they output a sine wave.  Now if you're using an inverter, that's a different story.  I fried a Dell laptop power supply using a so-called sine wave inverter.

RJR posted:

I don't know why a portable generator would fry a transformer, since they output a sine wave.  Now if you're using an inverter, that's a different story.  I fried a Dell laptop power supply using a so-called sine wave inverter.

As I recall, something about the voltage variations fried the electronics in the CW-80.  The postwar transformer I used, OTOH, took it all in stride. 

Mitch

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

RJR posted:

I don't know why a portable generator would fry a transformer, since they output a sine wave.  Now if you're using an inverter, that's a different story.  I fried a Dell laptop power supply using a so-called sine wave inverter.

As I recall, something about the voltage variations fried the electronics in the CW-80.  The postwar transformer I used, OTOH, took it all in stride. 

Mitch

FYI; the CW-80 was most likely made in China!

So the old tried & true post war transformers hold up once again.

Also have read about the MTH Z-4000 having some problems too. So I am going to stay with the lower watt or older transformers. Just add a little circuit protection, 7 amp circuit breakers and TVS units, to the older transformers and they work great with the new stuff.

Lee Fritz

I fully agree, Lee.  No way will I part with my ZWs and KW, even though at this time I only have one ZW operational on the layout.  The Z4000 has one advantage, in that the now-hard-to-find Z4000 receiver permits remote control of its output voltage.

I do not know what is inside the Lionel 180-watt Powerhouse.  Theoretically, it should be nothing more than a regular transformer with a high quality circuit breaker, and little if any electronics.  If someone is familiar with the innards, I'd appreciate comments.  If this is correct, it should be as good as, or better, than the ancient but durable ZW.

I would note that Lionel has changed to another Chinese manufacturer, so there is no telling what the quality will be in the future.

phillyreading posted:

FYI; the CW-80 was most likely made in China!

Absolutely made in China. All of them.

A small generator at a train show is most likely a variable load/speed inverter type as they are much quieter & more efficient, so it would not have been a pure sine wave that toasted the CW-80 electronic power supply(which happens to be powered by a transformer inside the case/housing). The transformer portion of that failed CW is probably still good.

RJR,

I had no idea that Lionel went with another Chinese company. I just know that the prices for new high watt transformers are way out of reach for most people. The Lionel ZW-L I have seen listed for $800.00 or more. The MTH Z-400 I have seen listed for close to $400.00.

In my opinion you would need to be slightly rich to afford the new transformers. Case in point or example; you buy a new MTH T-1 steam engine for $1350.00 and sink another $400.00 for a transformer(Z-4000) and then sink another $300.00 for the DCS command control unit, so you have spent over $2000.00 for an engine and power source and command control. Lionel is even higher; a new T-1 is around $1450.00 plus new ZW-L  is $800.00 and Legacy system around $300.00 (maybe more)or a total of $2550.00 or more.

Lee Fritz

Lee, the Powerhouse 180-watt has been selling for under $100, but it outputs a fixed 18VAC, so one needs a TIU or other controller.  No way in Hades would I spend the kilobux for a ZW-L.

The producer switch is one reason why the PH-180's have been unavailable for so long.  One can only guess as to the reason for the delay.  The ones currently available (if you can find them) are excellent.  I use one to replace a KW feeding 2 TIU variable channels.  It's a long story about how I came to acquire the PH180, but once having it, it made sense to use it.