Power a TIU with Z500, Z750 & Z1000 vs Lionel Power House

Not a guru, but I'll give it a try... First, there are 2 ways to power a TIU, the Aux power port or the Fixed 1 input. I would recommend using the Aux port to power the TIU and separate power supplies for each TIU channel you plan to use. A Z-500 is more than adequate for TIU Aux power and the rest would be over kill, although I think there are some folks around here that may be using a Z750 or Z1000 for TIU Aux power? I wouldn't use a PH 180 (unless powering the TIU from the Fixed 1 input). I think it's about 1 amp needed for the TIU Aux port and possibly more (maybe 1.5 amp?) if you have AIUs.

I use a Z-500 to power my TIU via the Aux port on the TIU. Then I have 2 PH-180s, one on fixed 1, the other on fixed 2, to run two loops of track. The plan is to have 2 more PH-180s and use the other two TIU channels for a future layout expansion.

The advantage of using the Aux port for power to the TIU is when you trip a breaker on any of your track power supplies (and their TIU channels) you still have control of your remaining channels as your TIU still has power from the Aux port. 

If you power the TIU via the Fixed 1 input and you trip the Fixed 1 power supply the TIU goes off and you lose control of any remaining TIU channels you might be using. If you only have one TIU channel in use and that channel is fixed 1 then it really does not matter whether you use the Aux power or not. The Aux power is only important if you are using multiple TIU channels or any TIU channels other than fixed one to power your tracks.

The Z750 transformer puts out 21v, Lionel and 3rd Rail say not to use more than 18v (may void any warranty).

Z500 for me...has been very stable

Are you taking about powering the TIU through the Aux port or powering the channels? 

Those saying they are using a Z-500,750 or 1000 to power there aux port may be doing so because the connector fits aux port.

I would use the 14v pin on a Z-1000. Then use the rest of the transformer to run lights or something not likely to short out.

Using Z transformer bricks to run your TIU ports is fine and economical. The Lionel brick is common because its output is close to the max output of each TIU channel.

I have heard using the voltage regulator part of the Z transformers is not a good idea because it changes the sine wave of the brick and then the TIU changes the wave again. I have used it and had no problems. Conventional maybe a different issue.

As a final note that was not mentioned is when using the Aux port of the TIU the e-stop button now works. Running through fixed one will not allow the button to operate.

Kris,

At first I powered the Aux port with a Z750 and the Fixed 1 input with a Z500, because I had them on hand.  All was fine with PS2.  Once I bought a PS3 locomotive, I had trouble, where it would run fine for about 2 minutes, then the engine would stop and lurch, stop and lunch.   After a long thread on the Forum, and testing my engine on a friend's layout with a Z4000 powering the Fixed inputs, we came to realize the PS3 doesn't like the Z bricks powering the Fixed input.  I am now powering the Fixed 1 and Fixed 2 inputs with two outputs of a ZW, with recommended TVS diodes and breakers.   I can look up the topic on the forum from last summer if you want, but that is the short of it.  If GunrunnerJohn picks up on this topic, he can detail the more technical part of my whole fiasco.  BTW, I now have a second PS3 loco, and all is swell!  

Dear All

Thank you for your replies. I am thinking of one powering the TIU via the aux itself and also powering the track via TIU the channels. From Mark's reply it seems that I would need at least three Z 500 brick one for the aux, two for the fixed channels and a Power House to power the var channels.

Kris,  What are you running?  The Z-500 is a 50W transformer.  IF you use that on a TIU input for a track you will have limited power for the train and any lighted or operating cars.

Z-500 50W

Z-750 75W

Z-1000 100W

Power House 180W.

Power house is 18V max which is what Lionel uses as an upper limit for their electronics.  It also has the best circuit breaker in my opinion.

The MTH Z have higher Voltages, but you need to look at the Power pack to know what it is.  I have seen Z-1000 with different Voltage ratings.

So, for the powering a TIU from aux port pick a transformer with at least 12V and about 2Amps.  No need for over kill here.

For the TIU Channel input, pick a transformer based on the voltage and current needs of what your running on the loop/channel.   G

Dear GGG

I have a small 4x8 layout that I am planning on running 4 loops. None of he loops are connected. I am now planning on powering the TIU three MTH z-500 one for the aux, one each for the TIU and one Power House 135 to power the other two ports on the TIU. The cars will be a mix of passenger cars and freight cars. The passenger have been converted to LED lighting. Engine could be either, MTH PS-1 or PS-2, Lionel (Post, Prewar or Modern) and maybe a K-Line Hudson or GG-1. What I looking for is a balance between price and performance. I would love to get a another Power House but none are available at the current time. I understand they will be available in sometime in 2016.

Kris,

   If you are staying with the bricks, IMO you should look into the PH 180, a very fine way to run your trains.  However I am not big on Bricks, Gun and some of the other guys really like them, however I like the old ZW's with 4 Channels, and the Z4K's with the side receivers that open up many more running options.  Sooner or later you are going to want to expand your layout, IMO you should always over power your layout anyway, and never run with anything less than a Z1000 Transformer.

PCRR/Dave

Someone recently pointed out to me that Charles Ro has more accurate shipping dates than Lionel's website. They have the PH-180s down for 12/10/2015. Not sure how accurate this info is either, but here is what they say C Ro PH-180. If correct they will be here available soon. They have them for a great price too. Thinking about a couple for myself after looking this up, but I'll probably wait and get them from my LHS later on.

FWIW, I am sold on the PH-180s for power and they are especially nice when using with a TIU. Perfect match for a TIU channel. Good setup, good value, excellent breakers, very hard to beat for function or price, IMO.

Actually, what happened to me is that the Z500 or Z750 bricks caused me to have trouble on the fixed input.  Right now I am using the Z750 brick on the Aux input only.  Sounds like a lot of folks like the PH180 for the fixed inputs, that or a Z4000.

Dear All

Thank you or your comments, knowledge and guidance.  I agree that the system should be expandable for future plans but the house purchase is still down the road. I can get my hand on a Power House and it seems everyone is going in that direction and  Charlie Ro seems the most reasonably priced. For right now I just want to run the carpet layout and have both sons enjoy the time with the trains.

IMO the Lionel PowerHouse 180 is one if the best choices for powering your track with or without the TIU.  It matches the power handling capacity of each TIU channel and has the best circuit breakers of most transformers on the market, certainly of any brick.  The Zxxxx bricks have a much slower thermal circuit breaker and they take a considerable overload for some period of time to trip.

John, I have heard a lot of folks say a lot of good things about the PH180.  Thanks for the recommendation!

We use them on our modular club layout and I use them here.  I've never had a complaint about their performance.

I use two of them here and I have never heard a complaint about their performance either (I know the operator). 

Sure hope the new batch coming isn't the 'new and improved' version, I want two more just exactly like the ones I have now, with no improvements, enhancements or changes.

My worry as well, I'm hearing conflicting stories about what the "redesign" will consist of.

I just ordered 2 PH180s from Charles Ro.  Thank you Kris for opening the topic, thank you John and everyone for your input!

I have a back up plan, got a couple of PSX-AC's sitting here on the shelf just in case of a breaker or other undesirable change.

I believe Mike, a couple of LUG meetings ago, stated the redesign will include a different type of CB because the old one worked too fast not allowing the TPCs and PowerHouses to do their job.  Does anyone remember exactly what he said?

Since I don't use either a TPC or a PowerMaster here, I'd just as soon have the brick have the fast breaker.

I am set up like GRJ with no TPCs or Powermasters, and I would also much prefer the fast breaker.

I remember the same thing as you, a new breaker more like the ZW-L or new Powermaster has because the old one tripped too fast. There was a thread about this and I believe Jon Z said they would be the same as the old ones, but the old memory ain't what it used to be or I could have mis-interpreted his post? 

Anyway, I am almost certain it was in a York LUG meeting video that MartyE puts on and also posts a video of after the meet. I don't go to York, way too far, but here are a couple of links.

I think it's this one from the spring York Lug Meeting Video - Spring 2015 York

Just in case, here's the fall York video Lug Meeting Video - Fall 2015 York

Since it is GRI approved and tested and the majority of the folk swear by the PH 180, I will wait for the PH 180 to come out in 2016.