Power for new layout recomendations

I don't think you can beat the Lionel Powerhouse 180s (180 watts-10amps, great breakers) and they are similarly priced to the Z1000 bricks, if you shop around. These are perfect if you are using the DCS system with a TIU, one per channel, and set up blocks you should have ample power to do what you want. 

I would not series or parallel any power sources or double up on power sources in any way, scary!

I run two Loops each powered by its own Z1000 running two separate multi units of 5 engines each. total cars being pulled 69. Here is an amp (3 amps) reading at scale 7 mile per hour. This is all DCS command revision L TIU in passive.All engines are ps2 3v or ps3.

I have one of the new Lionel ZW’s with 180 Watt bricks 6-32930 and it’s great.  I have 4 - 180 Watt bricks hooked to it and it provides ample power for multi train action, both conventional, and Legacy Control. By wiring them to TPC’s, the breakers work rapidly if there are any derailments....I use the Lionel ASC, BPC electronics to route power to my layout.

Marc C posted:

Hmmm.... I'm currently running an MTH Z4000 on my outer right of way on one channel from the fixed side of the TIU and when I run 4 engines pulling about 35-40 cars, smoke on medium (sometimes high) (sometimes off) it really pushes the amps to the max and often pops the breaker. Are the Z1000's more forgiving? I'm sure I'm pushing the limit, but I'd like to learn the best way to put electricity to the layout and be able to run MU's. The one area in model railroading I need to dive into and learn is on the electricity side. I've put that off long enough.

 

 

willygee posted:

I run two Loops each powered by its own z1000 running two separate multi units of 5 engines each. total cars being pulled 69. here is an amp (3 amps) reading at scale 7 mile per hour. This is all DCS command revision l TIU in passive.

 

 

here is another amperage read 2.5 amps with 19 engines fired up on the track. idling only not pulling cars.the second read same engines idling 5 engines in multi-unit smoke on.

Smoke "on" did spike at 5amps and settled to 4.6. DCS smoke vol set at "max".

You don't have to use hobby transformers.  I'm use two MPI 650-36 transformers (18 volt output per channel) to power eight loops and multiple units, all smoke and passenger cars with LED's installed.  Got them on ebay for $50 each.  Total of 72 amps, more than I'll ever need.  I fuse each loop at between 5amps to 9 amps, depending on what I'm running.  And I don't have to chop the loops into "blocks".   Just be sure to use "isolation" type transformers.

Here is a link to the MPI transformers.  Mine were made in New York.  They are exactly like the one in the link.  They weigh around five pounds and are about 6" square.  They are pure sine wave. They also block transient noise.

https://www.mouser.com/Product...RM9IZt7kFGZQIQ%3D%3D

here is another read at scale 1 mile per hour 1 /5 engine power mu pulling cars.

Marc C posted:

Hmmm.... I'm currently running an MTH Z4000 on my outer right of way on one channel from the fixed side of the TIU and when I run 4 engines pulling about 35-40 cars, smoke on medium (sometimes high) (sometimes off) it really pushes the amps to the max and often pops the breaker. Are the Z1000's more forgiving? I'm sure I'm pushing the limit, but I'd like to learn the best way to put electricity to the layout and be able to run MU's. The one area in model railroading I need to dive into and learn is on the electricity side. I've put that off long enough.

 

 

willygee posted:

I run two Loops each powered by its own z1000 running two separate multi units of 5 engines each. total cars being pulled 69. here is an amp (3 amps) reading at scale 7 mile per hour. This is all DCS command revision l TIU in passive.

 

 

Marc..Something you got with a high draw there. My 5 engines draw an additional 2.1 amps smoke >on set on max or .42 amp per engine.

willygee posted:

Marc C posted:

Hmmm.... I'm currently running an MTH Z4000 on my outer right of way on one channel from the fixed side of the TIU and when I run 4 engines pulling about 35-40 cars, smoke on medium (sometimes high) (sometimes off) it really pushes the amps to the max and often pops the breaker. Are the Z1000's more forgiving? I'm sure I'm pushing the limit, but I'd like to learn the best way to put electricity to the layout and be able to run MU's. The one area in model railroading I need to dive into and learn is on the electricity side. I've put that off long enough.

 

 

willygee posted:

I run two Loops each powered by its own z1000 running two separate multi units of 5 engines each. total cars being pulled 69. here is an amp (3 amps) reading at scale 7 mile per hour. This is all DCS command revision l TIU in passive.

 

 

Marc..Something you got with a high draw there. My 5 engines draw an additional 2.1 amps smoke >on set on max or .42 amp per engine.

I thought about this too. I wonder if because the layout may not be level in spots (not that you can tell by looking at it) if that is affecting the amp draw. The bench when built didn't have that specific attention to detail when built. The new layout will be perfectly level.

Marc C posted:

willygee posted:

Marc C posted:

Hmmm.... I'm currently running an MTH Z4000 on my outer right of way on one channel from the fixed side of the TIU and when I run 4 engines pulling about 35-40 cars, smoke on medium (sometimes high) (sometimes off) it really pushes the amps to the max and often pops the breaker. Are the Z1000's more forgiving? I'm sure I'm pushing the limit, but I'd like to learn the best way to put electricity to the layout and be able to run MU's. The one area in model railroading I need to dive into and learn is on the electricity side. I've put that off long enough.

 

 

willygee posted:

I run two Loops each powered by its own z1000 running two separate multi units of 5 engines each. total cars being pulled 69. here is an amp (3 amps) reading at scale 7 mile per hour. This is all DCS command revision l TIU in passive.

 

 

Marc..Something you got with a high draw there. My 5 engines draw an additional 2.1 amps smoke >on set on max or .42 amp per engine.

I thought about this too. I wonder if because the layout may not be level in spots (not that you can tell by looking at it) if that is affecting the amp draw. The bench when built didn't have that specific attention to detail when built. The new layout will be perfectly level.

I need to view your video as soon as i can..

Video rocks...i have the same UP ES44AC only #5327...it lives with a 4 engine NS power(5 total) in the video....any way what did you get for an amp reading(UP w the 61 cars smoke off) on your Z4000 meter?..and my other ?..is that a twin hammers 1/10 lurking on your bench?

willygee posted:

Video rocks...i have the same UP ES44AC only #5327...it lives with a 4 engine NS power(5 total) in the video....any way what did you get for an amp reading(UP w the 61 cars smoke off) on your Z4000 meter?..and my other ?..is that a twin hammers 1/10 lurking on your bench?

I don't recall what the amps were at the time of that video, but I didn't have any issue then. I'll need to look into a few things, but if most folks are running Z1000 style trans formers and can run multiple units like I am looking to do, I need to figure out what is going on. 

Good eye, but that is an HPI 1/5 scale baja 5T. Long gone, but I still have a ton of RC.

Marc C posted:

Hmmm.... I'm currently running an MTH Z4000 on my outer right of way on one channel from the fixed side of the TIU and when I run 4 engines pulling about 35-40 cars, smoke on medium (sometimes high) (sometimes off) it really pushes the amps to the max and often pops the breaker. Are the Z1000's more forgiving? I'm sure I'm pushing the limit, but I'd like to learn the best way to put electricity to the layout and be able to run MU's. The one area in model railroading I need to dive into and learn is on the electricity side. I've put that off long enough.

 

 

willygee posted:

I run two Loops each powered by its own z1000 running two separate multi units of 5 engines each. total cars being pulled 69. here is an amp (3 amps) reading at scale 7 mile per hour. This is all DCS command revision l TIU in passive.

 

 

The key fact to WillyGee's setup is that he is running the TIU in passive mode. The Z4000 is just fine.

Where does the 120 vac fit in? Wouldn't 4.5 amps at 120vac be a lot higher at 18vac? I must be missing something, I'm confused here?

RTR12, Try viewing it in watts and you will see "a lot higher at 18 VAC":

I'm beyond obsolete but the difference is that 120 VAC  is on the primary (wall power) input side of the transformer. So, 120  X 4.5 amps= 540 watts.

On the secondary (railpower) output side of the transformer 18 VAC X 4.5 AAC = 81 watts.

However, A 120 volt 15 amp household circuit provides 1800 watts available to the primary side of the transformers which in a perfect world of perfect power efficency will support ten 180 watt/10 amp Powerhouse transformers @ 18VAC on the secondary.  As noted elsewhere the electronic breakers on the 180 Powerhouses are first class and quick.

Powerhouses are fixed capacity and can be paralleled without getting harmful migrating currents. In the distant past I have done it several times on multiple lighted passenger trains running in the same power district. However I don't recommend it because 20 amps output is up in rail/wheel welding territory. Upon derailments it can scar up the rails and wheels fairly well.[when paralleling the voltage stays at 18 VAC and the AAC doubles}

rtr12 posted:

Where does the 120 vac fit in? Wouldn't 4.5 amps at 120vac be a lot higher at 18vac? I must be missing something, I'm confused here?

The 120vac is line voltage from a master power strip .The amps are the (2) Z1000's @18vac powering the tracks. Two loops(isolated from each other)each loop powered by its own Z1000.

Edit..the meter in use needs between 80 to 120vac power for the ammeter to function..your seeing the 120vac power supply.

Ok, so the amps are track and the volts are from the line voltage power strip, correct? That makes a lot more sense.

Thanks to all for clarifying. 

rtr12 posted:

Ok, so the amps are track and the volts are from the line voltage power strip, correct? That makes a lot more sense.

Thanks to all for clarifying. 

correct.

Thanks, I am easily confused sometimes!!  

I respectfully disagree about ever putting transformers in parallel.  Even if rated the same.  Too many things to go wrong.

The OP mentioned operating 2- Z1000's in series That is certainly not a wise option IMO. Nick 

Waddy posted:

I respectfully disagree about ever putting transformers in parallel.  Even if rated the same.  Too many things to go wrong.

There are times when appropriate.

Dewey didn't mention the TMCC Controller in his post.  He just suggested hooking both Z1000 transformers together.  The TMCC Track Power Controller is designed to regulate power between two transformers of the same rating wired together.  If your advice is restricted to running two transformers together ONLY with the TMCC set-up then he should be fine.  But I wouldn't recommend simply running two transformers in tandem WITHOUT a TMCC Controller.   Just my opinion on the subject.

BTW; that's why people divide up the track into blocks.

Get a bigger transformer.  Any isolation transformer with the proper output voltage and enough amps will do the job.

ADCX Rob posted:

Waddy posted:

I respectfully disagree about ever putting transformers in parallel.  Even if rated the same.  Too many things to go wrong.

There are times when appropriate.

The important thing to know about this page Rob posted is the NOTE! Be sure to use two of the same power supplies.  

For Lionel, that meant two PH135s or to PH180s.  The Z1000 without the controller (brick only) would be good too.  With PH180s, this can put up to 20 amps to the track during a short and this is what some folks are concerned about.

I use two PH180s in combination with the Legacy PM 360.  However, I also use extra protection by adding a PSX-AC which is a very fast electronic circuit breaker that handles up to 20 amps.  It has several settings, and I have mine set at 15.8 amps.  Here is my power setup: