Powering the Lionel TPC

You can wire the ZW directly to the TPC.  I'd consider a better circuit breaker for the PW-ZW in any case.

John thanks for the reply. What would a better circuit breaker be?  I though the TPC acted as the breaker 

I use a PowerHouse 180 to power my TPC 400.  Advantages?  They are newer than the ZW, have their own breakers (not sure how fast those are), and deliver 18v without fiddling with handles.

George

I like a good circuit breaker on the output of any transformer I'm using.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I like a good circuit breaker on the output of any transformer I'm using.

Not to hijack the thread, but what circuit breaker would you recommend between the PH180s and the TPC400?

George

The PH180 has a fast breaker. The PW ZW and the TPC do not. If you use a PW ZW, then I would add PSX-AC breakers to the outputs. If you power the TPC with PH180s, then you will have fast breakers...ultimately at the source.

G3750 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I like a good circuit breaker on the output of any transformer I'm using.

Not to hijack the thread, but what circuit breaker would you recommend between the PH180s and the TPC400?

Several different options are in this thread.

I put an "inline fuse", the glass ones and keep 8 and 10 amp glass fuses on hand.

Use either one, sometimes our hardware store may be out of one or the other.

One end of the fuse to the centre rail - the other to the TRACK A output on the TPC 400.

Been working for years without fail....and inexpensive to do.

Soo Line posted:

I put an "inline fuse", the glass ones and keep 8 and 10 amp glass fuses on hand.

Use either one, sometimes our hardware store may be out of one or the other.

If you switch to breakers, you will never have to depend on the hardware store's inventory methods or hours of operation to be able to run trains.

Can anybody explain the allure of depending upon consumables to be able to play with your electric trains?

G3750 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I like a good circuit breaker on the output of any transformer I'm using.

Not to hijack the thread, but what circuit breaker would you recommend between the PH180s and the TPC400?

George

The PH180 has a fast electronic breaker, the TPC has a slow one. I was thinking that the current draw would pass thru the TPC and trip the PH180. So if you need another one, and don't want to stress the TPC, you would need a fast electronic breaker following the TPC. The one to use is the PSC-AC and Charles Ro has them in stock as well as others. I use one PSC-AC following each output of a post war ZW that I use for accessories and lighting.

ADCX Rob posted:

Soo Line posted:

I put an "inline fuse", the glass ones and keep 8 and 10 amp glass fuses on hand.

Use either one, sometimes our hardware store may be out of one or the other.

If you switch to breakers, you will never have to depend on the hardware store's inventory methods or hours of operation to be able to run trains.

Can anybody explain the allure of depending upon consumables to be able to play with your electric trains?

Surely you can't be serious...............consumables?

The entire hobby is made up of consumables.......

Is every light bulb on your layout an LED?

Do you use smoke fluid in some engines?

Have you used other than all natural ingredients for your scenery efforts?

Just to name a few............

To the poster, what I use is just an additional option, cheap and most likely available locally to anyone anywhere.

I think the point here is not so much the choice you make but the benefit of extra protection.

Cheers

Soo Line posted:

Surely you can't be serious...............consumables?

The entire hobby is made up of consumables.......

Is every light bulb on your layout an LED?

Do you use smoke fluid in some engines?

Have you used other than all natural ingredients for your scenery efforts?

NONE of which depends on the hardware store's inventory methods or hours of operation to be able to run trains.

NONE of which affects being able to play with your electric trains.

I don't know of any circumstance where someone would shut down the whole operation due to a bulb being out in your aquarium car or because a piece of lichen that went missing. The lack of smoke fluid never stopped anyone either, unless it was out of an irrational fear of embarrassment.

But you did a nice job of skirting the real issue... why a fuse?

The snarky-ness on this forum often blows my mind, I don't get the attitudes.  Rob you can ask a question or make a point in a much more constructive manner.

Thanks to those that are helpful and constructive.

ADCX Rob posted:

If you switch to breakers, you will never have to depend on the hardware store's inventory methods or hours of operation to be able to run trains.

Can anybody explain the allure of depending upon consumables to be able to play with your electric trains?

Well, one thing is a breaker that actually has decent response speed is considerably more expensive than a glass fuse.  Most of the thermal breakers that are used on many transformers are way too slow acting IMO.

"Well, one thing is a breaker that actually has decent response speed is considerably more expensive than a glass fuse.  Most of the thermal breakers that are used on many transformers are way too slow acting IMO."

What kind of thermal breakers do you use/ recommend, John?? I'm sure you've posted it before, but I don't remember......

Truthfully, I'm not a big fan of thermal breakers, I'd prefer the faster acting magnetic models, but they're pretty pricey.  What I do if I have to live with the thermal variety is under-size them.  Here's a typical breaker that's found in a number of transformers, the TE Connectivity Potter & Brumfield Relays W28 Series. Below it is the chart that shows response time to overloads.  On the right is the time to trip, notice that at 200% of the rating, it can take up to 15 seconds to trip!  At 135% of it's rating, it won't trip for an hour!

For a typical track section, I'd probably use a 5-6 amp breaker for a 10A load.  Remember, the amount of time you'll actually have ten amps on a power segment is probably very small, if it happens at all.  I favor reducing the power requirements rather than having welding currents on the tracks.

Here's the chart of response time to overloads.

The spec sheet GRJ posted above also scared me away from these breakers. I did get some of the ones in GRJ's post to fiddle with and with a dead short they tripped pretty quickly. I would imagine these would be just fine for conventional operation with postwar type engines, but I was afraid to use them with my command control engines. My tests (fiddling) were very unscientific, I just put a jumper between the hot and common. I have no idea what percentage of load I put on them per the trip chart? I don't know enough to do any testing other than what I did, nor do I have the test equipment to measure it with.

Another option is the PSX-AC (as cjack mentions above) which is an electronic breaker that trips very fast and also has surge protection. It has a bunch of other options built in (manual or auto reset, alarms, LEDs, etc.) that you can use if you choose to. You can set it for the amperage at which you want it to trip. They are every bit as fast as the PH-180s (which I think may be electronic also? GRJ would know for sure on that one). So far I have had no electronic board failures in any of my engines with my setup and I am happy with that.  

I don't know what the magnetic breakers cost (GRJ probably knows that too), but the PSX-AC is around $50 or so. I think Charles Ro had them for a little less a year or so ago. I figured $50 was a lot less than a board replacement in a command control engine so I am using them with my PH-180s, probably overkill, but I feel safer this way and I also like (or would that be I'm a sucker for) nifty little electronic devices.

I once found a magnetic breaker for $21, but I can't find it now.  One if the issues with the thermal breakers is a short some distance from the power feed tends to have enough resistance to keep sizzling without actually having enough current to trip the breaker if they're rated too high.

The Lionel #91 adjustable magnetic breaker is a bargain, then!

GRJ,

$21 for the magnetic breaker doesn't sound too bad to me. Less than the PSX-ACs, but the PSX-ACs do have the bells and whistles (or Sonalerts anyway). I wasn't very far from the breakers when I did the shorting. I have read about the distance and tripping problem with DCC systems. I guess they have trouble with that and their wire sizing sometimes. That is interesting...I may have to explore new methods of 'fiddling' with this stuff.

ADCXRob,

I have never seen a #91 breaker in person, but I have read that those were pretty remarkable devices and adjustable as well. Are the #91s magnetic breakers? Not even sure what time period they were from? Maybe they should start making them again? Wonder what they would cost newly made?

Ok guys, bear with me.. It looks like the PSX is the way to go for me; more expense granted, but has all the 'bells and whistles' and appears to provide the best overall protection.. I downloaded the instruction manual.. Hook up is straight forward and they can be daisy chained in  power districts.. What determines the size of a power district?? The anticipated max loading of the district?? I'm guessing the districts would be set up like the old conventional block systems.. Thoughts..

rtr12 posted:

I have never seen a #91 breaker in person, but I have read that those were pretty remarkable devices and adjustable as well. Are the #91s magnetic breakers? Not even sure what time period they were from? Maybe they should start making them again? Wonder what they would cost newly made?

 

I'm guessing the catalog price in the late 50's was ~ $6.95. They are electromechanical-magnetic.

Very interesting conversation.  I just ordered 2 PSX's and will use them for protection with my ZW and move to 180w bricks and a TPC when I can find them.  Thanks everyone

Woodson posted:

Ok guys, bear with me.. It looks like the PSX is the way to go for me; more expense granted, but has all the 'bells and whistles' and appears to provide the best overall protection.. I downloaded the instruction manual.. Hook up is straight forward and they can be daisy chained in  power districts.. What determines the size of a power district?? The anticipated max loading of the district?? I'm guessing the districts would be set up like the old conventional block systems.. Thoughts..

I have 2 loops of track with spurs and sidings, 6'x16'. I use 2 channels of my TIU, one for each loop and it's associated tracks. There is a separate PH-180 powering each loop with a PSX-AC on each PH-180. I have the PSXs before the TIU. Been that way for over two years now and no problems so far. I added the alarm, LEDs and remote reset to mine, but I like fiddling with electronic gadgets.

ADCX Rob posted:

rtr12 posted:

I have never seen a #91 breaker in person, but I have read that those were pretty remarkable devices and adjustable as well. Are the #91s magnetic breakers? Not even sure what time period they were from? Maybe they should start making them again? Wonder what they would cost newly made?

 

I'm guessing the catalog price in the late 50's was ~ $6.95. They are electromechanical-magnetic.

According to the inflation calculator, $6.95 in 1959 would be $57.64 in 2016.  So the PSX-AC doesn't look too bad at around $50 or so. Of course, they could possibly make the #91s for less today?

"I have 2 loops of track with spurs and sidings, 6'x16'. I use 2 channels of my TIU, one for each loop and it's associated tracks. There is a separate PH-180 powering each loop with a PSX-AC on each PH-180. I have the PSXs before the TIU. Been that way for over two years now and no problems so far. I added the alarm, LEDs and remote reset to mine, but I like fiddling with electronic gadgets."

RTR12, sounds like 'the' plan!! Where did you buy yours with all the 'ad ons'??

Woodson I ordered tonight from Tony's train exchange and they had the boards, audio alarm ("sonalert"), and reset buttons. Prices seemed decent.

NJOGauge posted:

Woodson I ordered tonight from Tony's train exchange and they had the boards, audio alarm ("sonalert"), and reset buttons. Prices seemed decent.

Thanks for the reply and information!! You guys are great!!!!!

For what it's worth, one could home build a breaker comparable to that found in a PH180 for under $20 in easily available parts, if one was so inclined.  I posted a discussion about this about a year ago, but never followed up on the project as I got hung up on another part of it, then just let it fall aside.  

And Rob, I'd agree that fuses are a poor choice as the first line of defense, but I think there is nothing wrong with using them as a back-up measure.  Nothing wrong with cheap insurance with a part that should never have to be replaced as long as your breakers are working properly.  

JGL

Back to the original post - Current limiting won't fully protect your loco electronics.  You also need a TVS, and neither a ZW nor a TPC include that protection (and probably not a 180W brick), but it is easy to add externally.

Here's a link to a pretty inclusive TVS thread. There is a link to buying them in the second post by GRJ.

http://www.digikey.com/product...E36CALFCT-ND/1530580

https://ogrforum.com/t...ge-protection?page=1

I was able to blow the TVS on the PSX-AC routinely by connecting it to a CW-80 and turning it up all the way. So I removed them and use the one above from Digikey.

Woodson posted:

"I have 2 loops of track with spurs and sidings, 6'x16'. I use 2 channels of my TIU, one for each loop and it's associated tracks. There is a separate PH-180 powering each loop with a PSX-AC on each PH-180. I have the PSXs before the TIU. Been that way for over two years now and no problems so far. I added the alarm, LEDs and remote reset to mine, but I like fiddling with electronic gadgets."

RTR12, sounds like 'the' plan!! Where did you buy yours with all the 'ad ons'??

I got mine a few years ago, also at Tony's Train Exchange as NJOgauge did above. Tony's had only the terminal blocks back then, but I got the Sonalert from Digikey and had the LEDs & reset button already. Good to see that Tony's now has all the accessories and you can get everything in one place.

Charles Ro also has PSX-ACs now, but I don't know if they have any of the accessories? They did not have the PSX-ACs when I got mine, I looked all over for them. They must be gaining in popularity with us in O gauge?

I would also suggest, as Dale M. stated above, that you add some of the TVS diodes as well. Can't have too much protection, IMO.

PLCProf,

I think I remember your thread about the testing. The PSX-ACs are also faster than the PH-180s. They have I think 4 settings of around 4, 8, 12, & 15-16 amps. To be fair I believe I left mine on the 8 amp setting so it is a little lower than the PH-180. Could be why it always trips faster. I added some analog gauges (volts & amps) and the PSX would trip and the PH-180 would follow and also trip. Strange! I checked all the wiring and finally got that resolved, but I don't remember what I had done that was messed up? It could have been the LED rocker switches that I later found to be a problem and fixed that with relays? I need to start writing all this down at the time, memory ain't what it used to be...

If I see one of the #91s I might just get it to play with. Those do sound impressive, I didn't remember the 6 amp limit though, but I rarely ever draw more than 2-3 amps on any one of my loops.

JGL,

I might have missed the breaker discussion, or memory is failing again? I will take a look for it, probably over my head, but sounds interesting anyway.

cjack,

Thanks for the links, I've started trying to save these lately. Lots of good info here and I can't remember it all. I don't have a CW-80, but the PH-180s seem to work well with the PSX-ACs. I have had the PSX-ACs wired in permanently for at least a couple of years now and all is well. Before that I was just fiddling with them on the work bench for a year or so when I didn't yet have a permanent layout.

So with the TVS, they can be wired directly on the transformer between the hot/ground and that provides the surge protection?  If that is correct, I'm not sure why people would wire into each loco?

Also want to add I got a call from Lou at Tony's toy exchange today making sure I ordered the correct breaker for my application.  He also spent extra time on the call with me answering a couple questions for me.  Seemed like a great guy and great service from Tony's.

NJOGauge posted:

So with the TVS, they can be wired directly on the transformer between the hot/ground and that provides the surge protection?  If that is correct, I'm not sure why people would wire into each loco?

Actually, the TVS should be across the track feed.  The closer to the protected item the TVS is, the better.  Best is inside the locomotive, but failing that, connecting directly at the track feed is next best.

thanks John