Question on the various Santa Fe F3/F7 ABA sets in TMCC & Legacy...

 I'm not sure which sets your referring to, however.  I had a set of TMCC F7s from 2006 item #6- 24589.  

The "high water" trucks are the biggest flaw. They have a decent amount of detail, are smooth runners, and the sound is on a par with legacy, i,e. 8rpm levels etc.  The coupling is fairly close for factory lobster claws too.

Heres some poorly done video I took several years ago. 

I have these 3rd Rail units. You’ll need to change the couplers and the replacements are included as well as Scale pilots. The detail is incredible and they are the smoothest runners in my fleet. You may still be able to get a set but they aren’t cheap

The several Lionel F3's from the early 2000s rode slightly lower on their trucks than RickO's pretty F7's above. To many, they appear more realistic because of that. Some have actually lowered the F3's to give a much better prototypical appearance.

Here is my train #18 which is an F3 so you can see the slightly lower stance of these models. In the last photo below, the 2nd B unit is actually on a F7 chassis and you should be able to discern the slightly larger gap between the trucks and the chassis. It also sits about 1/8 inch taller on  the rails...

Thanks for the input!! The 14536 set had the beads of rice lights too close to the shell. (Search is my friend)

Looking at all the sets I could find, Lionel had F3's #24529 in 2004 V1 and #14588 in 2005 V2. They appear identical?? Am I missing something??

if you are going with LNL then you wont get the silver metallic sides that are found on the MTH, ATLAS and 3rd Rail F3/F7 versions.  LNLs dull silver/gray does NOT look as good with the 3rd Rail el Capitain cars. It's ok with freight.

The Lionel F units are a sad excuse for a 3 rail Scale diesel. Forget about them and get the best...

3rd Rail; All are Powered with HUGE horizontal motors, All have Sound, Fixed Pilots, Full Cab interiors 

seen below pulling the magnificent GGD combined Super Chief/El Cap 

https://youtu.be/bVmrkbTHU_w

*2 mins in is an execelent close up of the 3rd Rail ABBBA set. After watching it, you'll be hooked so have your wallet ready  

AlanRail posted:

if you are going with LNL then you wont get the silver metallic sides that are found on the MTH, ATLAS and 3rd Rail F3/F7 versions.  LNLs dull silver/gray does NOT look as good with the 3rd Rail el Capitain cars. It's ok with freight.

The new F3s in the catalog are reported to have more shinny metallic sides.  Just FYI.

are reported to have more shinny metallic sides.

ok but the description does not say so and for a BTO engine faith and gossip can be expensive.

AlanRail posted:

are reported to have more shinny metallic sides.

ok but the description does not say so and for a BTO engine faith and gossip can be expensive.

I'm just passing along the information from Ryan from Lionel said on this forum.  Do with it what you want.

From that post when I asked if they'd match the 2010 PW Paint F3s...

Ryan Kunkle

Director of Production, Lionel LLC

Back to the original question, I believe the Post War Classic F3s had the wrong shell red.  Lionel offered replacements.  I vaguely remember the melting number boards but can't say for sure which those wee.  Happy Hunting!

BigJohn&theWork posted:

The Lionel F units are a sad excuse for a 3 rail Scale diesel. Forget about them and get the best...

3rd Rail; All are Powered with HUGE horizontal motors, All have Sound, Fixed Pilots, Full Cab interiors 

seen below pulling the magnificent GGD combined Super Chief/El Cap 

https://youtu.be/bVmrkbTHU_w

*2 mins in is an execelent close up of the 3rd Rail ABBBA set. After watching it, you'll be hooked so have your wallet ready  

Co'mon John. This is the 027 forum. I will match my six motors against your two and see who wins. It could be 8 but I am sure I won't need the 2nd powered B. 

Lionel F3 ABBBBA

Pete

Jeff T posted:

I recently sold the 11711 ABA that I had for many years. I want to upgrade to TMCC and/or Legacy. From what I read there was one set offered where the red was wrong?? Then there was another set where the number board lights were too close and melted the number boards??

So the questions. What are the model #'s for those two sets? What sets would be a better choice??

Thanks!!

Jeff,

First are you looking for the newer scale units or the post war style shells?

IIRC it was the first run of scale Santa Fe units with the number board bulbs. If they didn't melt the shell it was the fact you could see right thru the red like an Xray.

Jeff T posted:

Thanks for the input!! The 14536 set had the beads of rice lights too close to the shell. (Search is my friend)

Looking at all the sets I could find, Lionel had F3's #24529 in 2004 V1 and #14588 in 2005 V2. They appear identical?? Am I missing something??

One is the A-A packaging and no magna traction?

The other sold as an A-B-A set?

AlanRail posted:

if you are going with LNL then you wont get the silver metallic sides that are found on the MTH, ATLAS and 3rd Rail F3/F7 versions.  LNLs dull silver/gray does NOT look as good with the 3rd Rail el Capitain cars. It's ok with freight.

That's fine with me!!

BigJohn&theWork posted:

The Lionel F units are a sad excuse for a 3 rail Scale diesel. Forget about them and get the best...

3rd Rail; All are Powered with HUGE horizontal motors, All have Sound, Fixed Pilots, Full Cab interiors 

seen below pulling the magnificent GGD combined Super Chief/El Cap 

https://youtu.be/bVmrkbTHU_w

*2 mins in is an execelent close up of the 3rd Rail ABBBA set. After watching it, you'll be hooked so have your wallet ready  

John - Mine just go around the Christmas tree, so I don't need that level of detail. ($$$$)

BobbyD posted:

Jeff T posted:

I recently sold the 11711 ABA that I had for many years. I want to upgrade to TMCC and/or Legacy. From what I read there was one set offered where the red was wrong?? Then there was another set where the number board lights were too close and melted the number boards??

So the questions. What are the model #'s for those two sets? What sets would be a better choice??

Thanks!!

Jeff,

First are you looking for the newer scale units or the post war style shells?

IIRC it was the first run of scale Santa Fe units with the number board bulbs. If they didn't melt the shell it was the fact you could see right thru the red like an Xray.

Bobby - Looking for the newer style shells.

It was the Lionel 11711 set that got me into the 3-rail hobby over 25 years ago.  I liked them so much that I dearly over paid ($350) to get the rare 8103 dummy B-unit.

Three years later I sold that set off to buy a really sweet ABBA set of Santa Fe war bonnets from MTH.   This set was later converted to TMCC.  I sold this set off earlier this year to a current forum member and he is thrilled with them.

I also purchased a Lionel set of F3’s from a forum member and had some minor problems with them that Lionel fixed for what I consider a fair price.  That set saw very little run time and I sold it to yet another forum member late last year.

I currently own an ABBBA set of the latest Atlas F7’s that were  released this Spring. These are far and away the BEST Santa Fe war bonnets I have ever owned. Are they flawless?   No, but I can live with the minor errors because when compare to all the others currently available they are IMHO the best.

They are half the price of 3rd rail.  They couple closer than MTH, Lionel and 3rd rail.  Fixed pilot piece of included and easy to install.  All body ladders are fixed and not mounted on the trucks like Lionel and MTH.  Lionel and MTH both have better sound systems.  The ss plating plating even with the minor flaws is still very nice.

What I am saying is if you can get a set of the Atlas F7’s go for it.  You have a choice of how many you want powered and non-powered.

I'm no expert and usually rely on the observations of those more knowledgeable than me here on this Forum. There are quite a few who are truly  'expert' in many various areas which is to me, a great feature here.

It seems in the numerous threads this past year about the Atlas and 3rd Rail Santa Fe's that several have posted that the Lionel F3/F7 is a very good scale model in many aspects. I like mine a lot and when I get settled in somewhere I plan to "3-rail scale" them to the best of my ability...

Marty E posted

From that post when I asked if they'd match the 2010 PW Paint F3s...

Ryan Kunkle

Director of Production, Lionel LLC

Glad to see that Lionel will have some of the Stainless paneled units available but I don't think I'll be in the market for a full set at the new higher prices. I have ordered the Super Bass B unit to add to my current train #18 but may have to swap the shell with one of my present B units to match the rest of the locomotive.  Boo Hiss....

Perhaps Lionel will offer the Super Bass unit with the option of a matching cab for the earlier releases? There would seem to me to be a good market out there for one.

Jeff T posted:

Thanks for the input!! The 14536 set had the beads of rice lights too close to the shell. (Search is my friend)

Looking at all the sets I could find, Lionel had F3's #24529 in 2004 V1 and #14588 in 2005 V2. They appear identical?? Am I missing something??

The 14536 was engine no. 16, the first of the scale Santa Fe F-3s, which had the number board light issue and interior lighting that was too bright. The next issues of this engine corrected those problems (although no. 16 can be fixed); these had engine nos. 18 and then 19, and those were, apparently, identical. Lionel also did a no. 17 scale set, which was a conventional, without TMCC. As someone mentioned above, these Lionel scale F-3s received a lot of praise for their accuracy and detail.

The red color issue was with, I believe, the Conventional Classics reissue (these are traditional style engines). Lionel issued replacement shells for those who wanted them, as someone also mentioned. 

As noted, the 2017 Vol. 2 catalog has some new Legacy scale Santa Fe F-3s in it, which will be out in 2018. They may or may not have the same red paint shade as the earlier TMCC scale engines (the earlier ones seemed accurate), but as discussed will add simulated stainless panels on the sides.

The recent Atlas O versions are very nice, and I was tempted to get some (before the new Lionel version was announced), but the red paint Atlas used was too flat for my taste, and that caused me to pass on them.

c.sam posted:

 

Glad to see that Lionel will have some of the Stainless paneled units available but I don't think I'll be in the market for a full set at the new higher prices. I have ordered the Super Bass B unit to add to my current train #18 but may have to swap the shell with one of my present B units to match the rest of the locomotive.  Boo Hiss....

Perhaps Lionel will offer the Super Bass unit with the option of a matching cab for the earlier releases? There would seem to me to be a good market out there for one.

Sam, I think it would be easy to add to the F3s from 2000-2006 if you have an unpowered B. A couple of Fatboys, enclosure, and a Railsounds board should do it. They already have the radio board and there should be plenty of room. Maybe later this season when I finish my existing projects I may check it out.

Pete

c.sam posted:

the Lionel F3/F7 is a very good scale model in many aspects. I like mine a lot and when I get settled in somewhere I plan to "3-rail scale" them to the best of my ability...

C. Sam, You have made my point for me A VERY GOOD SCALE MODEL should NOT require a "3-rail scale" treatment outside of a Kadee coupler swap. The Lionel units require additional details to be added, ride height lowering (which is a nightmare to undertake), and fixed pilot fabrication. After all that, they still don't pull worth a darn. Now if your running them around the tree pulling 5 or 6 15 inch cars, then they are certainly capable. However, if you plan on pulling a long SCALE passenger train as SCALE diesels are intended to, you will find them incapable.  

Now I know everyone thinks I'm some kind of lionel basher, but that's simply not the case. I have a large collection of Lionel Legacy steam engines and am a big fan of every one of em! Whistle steam is on of the greatest innovations in this hobby and lionel deserves full credit for it!

I just think Lionel is really laging in the "SCALE" diesel department, as evidenced by the defence of them in saying they will be run around the Christmas tree. While it's wonderful to have trains set up around the tree, SCALE diesels need to be held to a higher standard. If Lionel is mainly after the Christmas tree crowd, then drop the SCALE designation and go back to calling it O gauge. A SCALE diesel should have factory fixable pilots, easy kadee conversion, reasonably accurate ride height, and more than just generic details.

Those that are purchasing/preordering them on the premise that they are SCALE diesels as they are advertised are being duped. There are MUCH better SCALE diesels out there (3rd Rail). Those that just want something fun to run around the tree, will have exactly that. Anything legacy is fun to run, you'll hear no argument from me there. But from the original question, it seemed like Jeff T was concerned about detail and accuracy, hence my recommendation of 3rd Rail. Yes, I realize that this is the O/O27 form but most of the guys looking for better detail on a lionel diesel simply haven't found there way over to the dark side yet I was in that camp a few years ago.

6-14588 with the powered B unit... from 2004. #19, of course they didn't look like that out of the box

I won’t speak to the differences of MTH vs. Atlas vs. Lionel vs. 3^rd rail, as ALL of the Santa Fe units need work and none are accurate… it’s just a matter of what details are important to you. Actually Doug, (laidoffsick) had a great tutorial on upgrading his Sunset units, that I am trying to do as well. This is not an easy upgrade or for the faint of heart. But, when finished, they do look very nice.

I will say that after I had received the first set of GGD Santa Fe cars plus three add-ons, I only had a Lionel ABA (powered A, dummy B, dummy A) and the single powered unit pulled the eight scale cars with no problem. Now I have my set of Sunset Santa Fe ABBA’s and of course it pulls the eight cars with no problem either.

So, if there is a “pulling problem” with the Lionel units I sure have not experienced it.

Charlie