Questions about planned layout

With regards to power i would say too little.  I have no idea what power supply is 18 watts but that seems to be either a typo or too small. 

If you want to use manual switches in the low use areas go for it as long as you can reach them.  Also this is a small layout, if you intend to operate a switch while the train is running you may not be quick enough.

If you are running command control i would consider a larger power supply and not isolate either loop.  That being said you can isolate the two independent loops in order to have some flexibility.

@Pappu posted:

Hello,

After working on various layouts (with help from various folks on the forum- thanx!) and discussing this with the family, I am looking at the attached layout; courtesy, Lionel Layout options and @Ken-Oscale with some of my modifications.

The elevation grade (cyan) is at 3%. Where the tracks "intersect" at elevation (left side inner loop) is 4.67" (according to SCARM). All the accessories are Plug-Expand-Play.

I already have the Harry Potter ready-to-run set.

My questions are:

1. My plan is to have 1-72W power supply for the inside loop (inner red track), 1-72W for the accessories (the 681314 track) and use my current 18W power supply for the outer loop (red track)

Q: Is the power that I am requesting too much or too little for the tracks and accessories that I have planned on the layout?

My recollection is that the 72W power supplies are DC only, so any engine or accessories you plan to run have to be DC compatible. Not sure about an 18v power supply but that is underpowered. If it were me, I'd probably go with a small AC transformer like a Lionel CW-80 or MTH Z-1000 and run it to a distribution block and then out to a number of power drops on each loop. Both of them also have a separate output for accessories.

2. I plan to run two trains at the same time on my layout - only LionChief (my Harry Potter set) and/or LionChief 2.0 (to be purchased at a later time). I do not plan at this time to expand to legacy or conventional.

Q: Do I need to isolate the two loops? If so, what would be required to do so on the layout? I have read about the Lionel 5" block (6-12060) or the 1-3/8" (6-12073) but do not know where I should be placing them on my layout. Or are they even required? You do not need to isolate, but if you want you could insert a 1 3/8 FT fitter piece at the two locations I have marked. If you do, make sure you disconnect the wire underneath.

3. I have 8 switches which are all remote/command control.

Q: Do all my switches have to be remote/command control or is it possible to have manual switches in some of the locations on my layout? I know that all of them can be manual but which ones could I consider manual that don't require my interaction all the time?

You can use manual anywhere you want and think it will not get a lot of use.

JPG and SCARM file are attached.

Thanx!

@Pappu posted:

The elevation grade (cyan) is at 3%. Where the tracks "intersect" at elevation (left side inner loop) is 4.67" (according to SCARM). All the accessories are Plug-Expand-Play.

Considering the track height and the structure, you'll have less than 4" of clearance at this intersection.  The Hogwart's locomotive is 3 3/4" tall from the rail tops, make sure you have sufficient clearance.  Also, the Hogwart's locomotive has the really small set motor and it a fairly heavy locomotive.  I know mine struggles with seven coaches on a 2.5% grade, so you might want to rethink that.

1. My plan is to have 1-72W power supply for the inside loop (inner red track), 1-72W for the accessories (the 681314 track) and use my current 18W power supply for the outer loop (red track)

Q: Is the power that I am requesting too much or too little for the tracks and accessories that I have planned on the layout?

2. I plan to run two trains at the same time on my layout - only LionChief (my Harry Potter set) and/or LionChief 2.0 (to be purchased at a later time). I do not plan at this time to expand to legacy or conventional.

Q: Do I need to isolate the two loops? If so, what would be required to do so on the layout? I have read about the Lionel 5" block (6-12060) or the 1-3/8" (6-12073) but do not know where I should be placing them on my layout. Or are they even required?

3. I have 8 switches which are all remote/command control.

Q: Do all my switches have to be remote/command control or is it possible to have manual switches in some of the locations on my layout? I know that all of them can be manual but which ones could I consider manual that don't require my interaction all the time?

1.  I'd lose the DC powerpacks and use AC transformers, they'll be compatible with any accessory you use.

2.  You do want to isolate the loops, paralleling power supplies is not advised as a rule.

3.  You can have any mix of manual, remote, or command control switches on your layout.

My question is why given the parameters of your layout you are using all those power supplies (or do you already have them)?  If you are going to run lionchief products only and not run conventional, why not use a single transformer for the power supply, get one rated at like 180w and you could probably run anything you wanted and accessories. If you use a single transformer, you don't have to isolate the loops, it is just a lot simpler. You would have to run drops on the layout, but given how small this each that wouldn't be a burden. You also can have a separate transformer for the track and another to handle the accessories. Don't even really need a transformer if you are running lionchief only, power bricks would work just as well.

@necrails posted:

With regards to power i would say too little.  I have no idea what power supply is 18 watts but that seems to be either a typo or too small.

If you want to use manual switches in the low use areas go for it as long as you can reach them.  Also this is a small layout, if you intend to operate a switch while the train is running you may not be quick enough.

If you are running command control i would consider a larger power supply and not isolate either loop.  That being said you can isolate the two independent loops in order to have some flexibility.

Thanx @necrails. The 18W is not a typo and would be only for the outside track train. It comes with the Harry Potter ready-to-run set that I run today.

I am trying to figure out which locations would be the "low use areas". My thought are the switches that are in the elevated loop and also the switch that takes it to the passenger station. That is something I would like to confirm from the folks here.

Thanx!

The "low use" areas are the areas you decide are low use.  I really depends on how you intend to run.  Most of my switches are remote command controlled switches, but the ones that directly service the 10-track freight yard are manual.  I figured I'd be there anyway, and they're easy to reach, so I didn't bother to put switch machines on those.

@Richie C. posted:

Thanx Richie! (@Richie C.)

To answer your notes:

My recollection is that the 72W power supplies are DC only, so any engine or accessories you plan to run have to be DC compatible. Not sure about an 18v power supply but that is underpowered. If it were me, I'd probably go with a small AC transformer like a Lionel CW-80 or MTH Z-1000 and run it to a distribution block and then out to a number of power drops on each loop. Both of them also have a separate output for accessories.

Yes - my plan is to run only DC compatible engine or accessories; specifically, LionChief or LionChief+ 2.0 and only plug-expand-play accessories.

The 18W power supply would be only for the outer loop and for the train only. That is what I use today on my HP ready-to-run set.

You do not need to isolate, but if you want you could insert a 1 3/8 FT fitter piece at the two locations I have marked. If you do, make sure you disconnect the wire underneath.

Thanx on the fitter pieces; that helps. This would mean re-doing the outer loop to handle those fitter pieces, right? I don't think I would be able to "just add them", correct?

You can use manual anywhere you want and think it will not get a lot of use.

As I replied to necrails and regurgitating here for ease of answering - I am trying to figure out which locations would be the "low use areas". My thought are the switches that are in the elevated loop and also the switch that takes it to the passenger station. That is something I would like to confirm from the folks here.

Thanx!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Considering the track height and the structure, you'll have less than 4" of clearance at this intersection.  The Hogwart's locomotive is 3 3/4" tall from the rail tops, make sure you have sufficient clearance.  Also, the Hogwart's locomotive has the really small set motor and it a fairly heavy locomotive.  I know mine struggles with seven coaches on a 2.5% grade, so you might want to rethink that.

1.  I'd lose the DC powerpacks and use AC transformers, they'll be compatible with any accessory you use.

2.  You do want to isolate the loops, paralleling power supplies is not advised as a rule.

3.  You can have any mix of manual, remote, or command control switches on your layout.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The "low use" areas are the areas you decide are low use.  I really depends on how you intend to run.  Most of my switches are remote command controlled switches, but the ones that directly service the 10-track freight yard are manual.  I figured I'd be there anyway, and they're easy to reach, so I didn't bother to put switch machines on those.

Thanx GRJ (@gunrunnerjohn)! This is very helpful and makes sense.

I would welcome any ideas on the possibility of changing the grade without any major modifications to the layout. If that is even possible.

Thanx!

@bigkid posted:

My question is why given the parameters of your layout you are using all those power supplies (or do you already have them)?  If you are going to run lionchief products only and not run conventional, why not use a single transformer for the power supply, get one rated at like 180w and you could probably run anything you wanted and accessories. If you use a single transformer, you don't have to isolate the loops, it is just a lot simpler. You would have to run drops on the layout, but given how small this each that wouldn't be a burden. You also can have a separate transformer for the track and another to handle the accessories. Don't even really need a transformer if you are running lionchief only, power bricks would work just as well.

@bigkid - at present, I do not have anything except for the tracks and 18W power supply that comes with the HP set.

Yes, they will be just LC and LC+2.0 products and no conventional. So, with a single 180W power brick and not having to isolate the loops, I could run two trains at the same time?

Thanx.

Well, the only way to change the grade is either lengthen the run or decrease the height.  Given the minimal clearance you obviously already have under the crossover, decreasing the height seems to be a non-starter.  That just leaves the run length.  I have a 2.5% grade that rises 7", that consumes 24 feet of run.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, the only way to change the grade is either lengthen the run or decrease the height.  Given the minimal clearance you obviously already have under the crossover, decreasing the height seems to be a non-starter.  That just leaves the run length.  I have a 2.5% grade that rises 7", that consumes 24 feet of run.

Thanx GRJ @gunrunnerjohn. I am looking at my plan and don't see how I would be able to increase run length with either increasing the length of the table (9') or change it completely. Yes?

@Pappu posted:

Thanx Richie! (@Richie C.)

To answer your notes:

My recollection is that the 72W power supplies are DC only, so any engine or accessories you plan to run have to be DC compatible. Not sure about an 18v power supply but that is underpowered. If it were me, I'd probably go with a small AC transformer like a Lionel CW-80 or MTH Z-1000 and run it to a distribution block and then out to a number of power drops on each loop. Both of them also have a separate output for accessories.

Yes - my plan is to run only DC compatible engine or accessories; specifically, LionChief or LionChief+ 2.0 and only plug-expand-play accessories.

The 18W power supply would be only for the outer loop and for the train only. That is what I use today on my HP ready-to-run set.

You do not need to isolate, but if you want you could insert a 1 3/8 FT fitter piece at the two locations I have marked. If you do, make sure you disconnect the wire underneath.

Thanx on the fitter pieces; that helps. This would mean re-doing the outer loop to handle those fitter pieces, right? I don't think I would be able to "just add them", correct? - yes; there is some "give" in Fastrack, but adding those fitter pieces would require either re-working the layout plan or cutting the tracks at the end of the switches to accommodate the additional 1 3/8" spacing. Based on the info you've supplied, I don't really see a need to isolate the loops, but it's your call. Even though you don't think at present you'll be running anything but basic DC powered engines and even though you say you aren't presently interested, it's certainly not unusual for enthusiasts to start small and after a few years (or even months) to want to expand in terms of size and/or equipment and some advance planning at an early stage in terms of transformers and/or layout design can be helpful and save a lot of headaches down the road. Don't ask how I know

You can use manual anywhere you want and think it will not get a lot of use.

As I replied to necrails and regurgitating here for ease of answering - I am trying to figure out which locations would be the "low use areas". My thought are the switches that are in the elevated loop and also the switch that takes it to the passenger station. That is something I would like to confirm from the folks here.

Thanx!

See above in blue.

@Pappu posted:

Thanx GRJ @gunrunnerjohn. I am looking at my plan and don't see how I would be able to increase run length with either increasing the length of the table (9') or change it completely. Yes?

Correct, I was simply pointing out that it appears practical options for reducing the grade without major changes in the plan are probably not happening.

@Richie C. posted:

See above in blue.

Thanx @Richie C.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Correct, I was simply pointing out that it appears practical options for reducing the grade without major changes in the plan are probably not happening.

Thanx GRJ @gunrunnerjohn. Would a potential solution be to use smaller cars? Or.. plan changes.

Many locomotives and reasonable sized consists don't have problems with 3% grades.  I just happen to single it out as you have one of the few marginal locomotives, the Hogwart's.  It's heavy and has a very small motor, a bad combination.  I know as I have two of the engines, and I've upgraded one to a larger motor to combat that issue.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Many locomotives and reasonable sized consists don't have problems with 3% grades.  I just happen to single it out as you have one of the few marginal locomotives, the Hogwart's.  It's heavy and has a very small motor, a bad combination.  I know as I have two of the engines, and I've upgraded one to a larger motor to combat that issue.

Thanx GRJ @gunrunnerjohn! Lucky me!

You could "dig" down into the tabletop essentially lowering the grade. This would increase clearance in the area in question. I find this produces a neat visual.

@LT1Poncho posted:

You could "dig" down into the tabletop essentially lowering the grade. This would increase clearance in the area in question. I find this produces a neat visual.

@LT1Poncho - how would I do that?

Look for articles about cookie-cutter benchwork.  They will explain the process for raising or lowering smaller parts of a tabletop.

Chuck

@Tom Tee should be along shortly with some really nice pictures of cookie-cutter benchwork.

@PRR1950 posted:

Look for articles about cookie-cutter benchwork.  They will explain the process for raising or lowering smaller parts of a tabletop.

Chuck

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

@Tom Tee should be along shortly with some really nice pictures of cookie-cutter benchwork.

Thanx both Chuck and GRJ! 

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Considering the track height and the structure, you'll have less than 4" of clearance at this intersection.  The Hogwart's locomotive is 3 3/4" tall from the rail tops, make sure you have sufficient clearance.  Also, the Hogwart's locomotive has the really small set motor and it a fairly heavy locomotive.  I know mine struggles with seven coaches on a 2.5% grade, so you might want to rethink that.

I agree with John, ~4.5" of clearance is on the low end. I'd be worried about locomotives and/or cars getting stuck under the upper loop. I think your best option is to have the grade reach the full height before crossing over the track on the main level. This will increase your grade % but will give you a safer clearance. It'll probably go up to 3.5%, but a dual-motored LC+2.0 locomotive with a short consist shouldn't have any trouble there.

A lot of your tracks look pretty close to adjacent tracks as well. You might run into some overhang issues.

I'd definitely set up this layout on the floor and make sure clearances (both vertical and horizontal) are OK and have some room to grow before investing in benchwork, etc.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

1.  I'd lose the DC powerpacks and use AC transformers, they'll be compatible with any accessory you use.

2.  You do want to isolate the loops, paralleling power supplies is not advised as a rule.

3.  You can have any mix of manual, remote, or command control switches on your layout.

Yup, I agree with John here too.

I'd go with an AC transformer like CW80 or Z1000 as it'll give you more flexibility and room to grow. If you're running any passenger trains with incandescent bulbs in the cars, you'll need more power than you think.

If you're running digital control and a single transformer only, you don't have to isolate the lines. The more important thing is running multiple power drops to

Assuming your control/viewing area is primarily on the side with the crossover between the loops, I think you could use manual switches for the crossovers and the siding with the illuminated station platform. I've marked them on your layout plan. I would use Remote/CC switches for the reversing loops so that they automatically non-derail to the correct alignment when trains come through and reverse direction. Haven't personally used the manual switches, but if it's just a spring-based non-derail setup, I'm not sure I'd trust it for the frequent non-derailing a switch in a reversing loop will do.

EDIT: Uploaded the image again - hope it's OK now!

@Mike0289 posted:

Assuming your control/viewing area is primarily on the side with the crossover between the loops, I think you could use manual switches for the crossovers and the siding with the illuminated station platform. I've marked them on your layout plan. I would use Remote/CC switches for the reversing loops so that they automatically non-derail to the correct alignment when trains come through and reverse direction. Haven't personally used the manual switches, but if it's just a spring-based non-derail setup, I'm not sure I'd trust it for the frequent non-derailing a switch in a reversing loop will do.

Thanx @Mike0289 for the feedback. That helps!

The image does not show up; could you reattach it, please?