Rookie Question?

TimDude,

The 200 Series should match up perfectly. The 500 Series fit the smaller profile locomotives. It all depends upon the heigth of tender coupler on the 400E.

Lionel always paired the 200 series with the 400E. I believe there is a 1/2" difference in coupler height when the 500 series are on the track behind a 400 Tender. I have a 400E in gunmetal restored that is for sale if interested. Shipping may be high as your across country from me, but I think the price is reasonable at $1400.

Gandy

Any Lionel catalog of the Standard Gauge years will show exactly what was paired with what.

TimDude,

As previously mentioned, 200 series cars are made for 400e.  The 500 series cars will not work since coupler heights are different... unless you start bending stuff...not recommended! 

I am really torn because I want a 400E, but I really like the lower profile of the 500 series cars over the 200 series. I got a 400E off the bay and will do some side by side comparisons on the bench when it arrives.

Ron,

That data encourages me to ask this question also. Looking at my 512 and 212 gons sitting in front of me, is it possible to switch trucks between cars? They look identical otherwise?

You could without any problems, but remember that the 200 series cars are 1" longer than the 500 series. So you'll have shorties operating on your RR. Something different.

Ron M

Wow, didn't even notice that either. I was actually thinking of going the other way and putting 500 series trucks on 200 series cars but it all depends on what and how I mod the 400Es coupler

My MTH 400E (11-1001-1) came with a low coupler on the tender.  I run a long string of 500 freight with it, and love how it looks.

I have a 200 series gondola with 500 series trucks and I do not care for it very much.

I could not find it to post a picture. sorry.

MTH made a Blue Comet and MR boxcars in 200 series with 500 series trucks to match the passenger trains as add on cars.

The world will not come to an end if you connect a 400E to 500 series cars. If you are running medium to smaller STG I would avoid the 200 series cars and stick with 500 series cars.

200 and 500 series cars together coupled and uncoupled. Most would agree they do not look very good running together.

There is still another option, one could replace the 500-series wheels (9T-1  7/8"dia.) with the 414-series wheels (418T-1 1"dia.) which would make the car stand slightly higher. Using the 200-series wheels (319T-15 1¼" dia.) I believe would be too much.

Should add that the 418T-1 and 9T-1 wheels used the same axle (9T-20) whereas the 319T-15 used the 319T-4 axle.

Finally ALL Lionel Standard Gauge rolling stock, tenders, passenger and freight cars, used the SAME coupler - CP-21.

Ron M

I stand corrected on the height of the State cars - I put one next to a 500 series freight car yesterday and the couplers lined up. I had thought the couplers on State cars were higher than on the Stephen Girard and Blue Comet cars. 

Does anyone know where to get the straight-shank coupler that was used on the 400E's that were shipped in sets with 200 series freight cars, and/or what the part number was? It looks like I'm going to need a set for a  Williams 381E that I'm planning to use with 200 series freight cars. I'd also like to get one for our museum's repro 400E, since that locomotive is used exclusively with 200 series cars. 

OK, then how did Lionel match the height of couplers on the 400E to 200 series freight cars? Did they shim up the tender body?  I have seen a number of posts on this forum stating that there was a coupler with a straight shank, but I haven't seen one. I looked at the set pictures in a 1932 Lionel catalog, but none shows the coupler connection. To repeat the question, if the couplers were the same, how did Lionel get the 400E to match up with 200 series freight cars?

One word answer - SLOP!

Now to expand on that, there is enough vertical freedom (looseness of fit) to accommodate the 1/8" difference in coupler height. Or each coupler has to move only 1/16".

Ron M

On my layout the now infamous CP-21 coupler had an encounter with a pair of pliers. The whole encounter lasted about 4 seconds. It is now a CP-21M modified straight shank. 

Buy a 2nd coupler to change back. 1 screw and about 20 seconds time.

Question. Why did Lionel make a special tender for the 390E with 200 series wheels to line up with 200 series cars.

'cuz the difference in coupler heights between 200-series wheels and 500-series of wheels was 3/16" rather to much to accommodate with 'slop'.

Ron M

Then there are 3 coupler heights?

200 series cars.

Passenger cars

500 series cars

I never knew. I always thought the Passenger cars and 500 series had the same coupler height.

As silly as it may sound. They wanted more unit production. Sell the special tender as an optional piece = more money in the bank for them. Another point to ponder. There are those new in the hobby (Std Gauge) who are uncomfortable using pliers and/or a screwdriver. For the few Lionel made the optional tender. 

So that it would look better?

   At the time the original 390TX (200 series trucks) was made Lionel did not have a larger steam locomotive. The only model available was the 390 in 1929 and the 384 in 1930. Neither loco was designed to be sized for the larger rolling stock. Lionel was facing fierce competition from the IVES 1134 and had been so since 1928. Rather than lose market sales, they simply raised the tender height to work better with the larger cars. Easy. Expecting customers to "modify" a loco brand new out of the box was not good business practice, especially as these were toys. No parent wants an unhappy rugrat on Christmas morning when he finds out his new locomotive wont pull his cars!

   Now the 9 loco was a coupler outcast. Sized for 200 series cars, the couplers were too low. It looks too big with 500 series, and only seems to fit well with the 428 cars? 

The 390X tender was not offered as a  separate sale item in the 1930 Consumer catalog. The 390E/390X combo was offered in Outfits Nos. 407E,423E,358E. The 358E was a work train and this was also part of the 407E. The 423E came with 211,212,213,214,215,216 and 217 cars.

FWIW 1930 introduced the "Blue Comet" headed by the 390E and paired with a 390T tender to pull the 420,421,422 cars.

Ron M

Lionel had no steamer through the 1920s because there was "no demand" as Hertz noted.  But as soon as the the 1134 came out, the process reversed and in a few years the electrics started disappearing.  Curious.

Ok, got my 400E, modern MTH version (10-1061) so I thought I would do a little real world comparison.

This picture shows the 400E and a original Lionel 513 stock car coupled together, no problem.

This picture shows the 400E and an original Lionel 418 passenger car coupled together, again no problem.

This picture shows the 400E attempting to be coupled together to a MTH 212 Gon, won't work. Is this the dropped coupler that MTH used? I am holding the 400E coupler up with a piece of wire to show its highest travel.

Now the $64,000 question - "What is the tread diameter of the 400T tender wheels?"

Ron M

Looking at the photo of the MTH 400T and the 418 indicates that your 400T has 500-series wheels when it should have 414/418-series wheels. FACTORY BOO-BOO!

The wheels of the Lionel 418 and the 400T should be IDENTICAL.

Ron M

For further edification, the following Standard Gauge tenders used the P/N 9T-17 wheels (7/8" thread dia.):384T,385T/W,390T,392W,1835W. This same wheel was used for these cars:309,310,312,332,337,338,339,341,511,512,513,514,514R,515,516,517,518,520,1766,1767,1768.

P/N 418T-1 wheel (1" thread dia.) was used on: 400T/W,412,413,414,416,420,421,422,424,425,426,418,419,431,490.

P/N 319T-15 wheel (1¼" tread dia.) was used on: 211,212,213,214,214R,215,216,217,218,219,220,319,320,322,428,429,430.

Remember Lionel was into business to make money and one way to accomplish that is to keep the number of different parts to a minimum

Ron M

Here's a pic of an original 400T and 212 Gondola plus a close-up pic of the coupling. This a 1934 Lionel Work Train on display in the National Toy Train Museum in Strasburg PA.

Like I originally posted - SLOP - allows for the coupler-to-coupler connection between the 400T tender and 200-series cars. No special coupler required!

Ron M

Ron,

How many different types of trucks were used on passenger cars?

Tim,

This is what was listed in Lionel's 1935 replacement parts booklet.

319T series trucks: 428,429,430 (1¼" wheels)

9T series trucks: 309,310,312,332,337,338,339,341 (7/8" wheels)

414T series trucks: 412,412,414,416,420,421,422,424,425,426 (1" wheels)

418T series trucks: 418,419,431,490 (1" wheels)

1766 series trucks: 1766,1767,1768 (7/8" wheels)

Ron M