Ross Double Crossover and Dz1008 Shorting Issue

Here is a couple videos showing the issue. The first is me pushing a car through the two routes showing the short. The second shows the amperage on my control panel (sorry for the odd angle, trying to fill the panel while pushing the car several feet away).

You have 4 isolated black rails that surround the diamond. You have a white wire soldered to one of them. When going through the x overs in either direction. 2 rails should connect to the outside rails and 2 to the center rail. With the length of the diamond that little bit of powered rail is needed on some engines or cars as well as an outside rail connection.
Your best bet is to check with a meter for continuity. The rail should go to the relays common. Depending on switch position each rail will change from a center or to an outside rail.

I have been having problems too with my large crossover. We have used relays to control my signal bridges, but have yet to figure out how to power the dead spots. I know we must have had shorts as we blew a couple of relays. Sure wish for some answers.

FWIW, I have a Ross 11 1/2 degree crossover with a DZ1008 relay to swap ground/power to the rails in the center diamond. I have also experienced shorts multiple times. The route in which the relay is normally closed always works. The route where the relay must operate to shift power (normally open) is the one that fails/shorts. The short means the relay has not engaged to shift the power. There are a variety of causes of this. One is that all the grounds involved must be connected to each other: train power, relay power, and switch machine power. Best solution for me was to use train rather than accessory power to the relay and switch machine connected to the relay to latch it (no switches with machines in my case). The relay itself is almost never the problem. Connecting its green to 12 volts positive, you will almost certainly hear it engage.

Try some of these and let us know what you find.

I’ll try to explain how mine is set up. I use Tortoise switch machines and am really not familiar with the DZ stuff. You need a wire on all 4 black rails surrounding the diamond. Look at how a car or engine passes through it. 2 opposite rails contact the wheels and the other 2 will contact the pickup rollers. You need 2 relays. The opposite rails wires get tied together at the relays common. The other contacts will provide either center rail power or outside rail power after you throw your toggle switch or push your buttons.

Looking at your demo. I can’t see the underside of the x over track. I only see one wire going to the relay. It’s probably set as a outside rail and that explains the arching. Not sure if the other route is even wired. I see no arching. Just the lights going out over a dead spot where there aren’t enough powered rails to keep it alive.

As far as myself, thanks for these tips. If anyone else has tips please let us know.

THANKS!

@Dave_C posted:

I use Tortoise switch machines and am really not familiar with the DZ stuff. You need 2 relays.

Looking at your demo. I can’t see the underside of the x over track. I only see one wire going to the relay. It’s probably set as a outside rail and that explains the arching. Not sure if the other route is even wired. I see no arching. Just the lights going out over a dead spot where there aren’t enough powered rails to keep it alive.

Hi Dave, thanks for the reply. With the DZ only one relay is needed. Based on your post and the manual, I think that Ross's suggested use of the DZ1008 only provides AC hot and nothing to the diamond rails in an alternating pattern, and not ground (although your method of alternating hot and ground sounds more reliable). Or maybe ground is involved with the DZ, I'm really not sure.

@Ken Wing posted:

FWIW, I have a Ross 11 1/2 degree crossover with a DZ1008 relay to swap ground/power to the rails in the center diamond. I have also experienced shorts multiple times. The route in which the relay is normally closed always works. The route where the relay must operate to shift power (normally open) is the one that fails/shorts. The short means the relay has not engaged to shift the power. There are a variety of causes of this. One is that all the grounds involved must be connected to each other: train power, relay power, and switch machine power. Best solution for me was to use train rather than accessory power to the relay and switch machine connected to the relay to latch it (no switches with machines in my case). The relay itself is almost never the problem. Connecting its green to 12 volts positive, you will almost certainly hear it engage.

Try some of these and let us know what you find.

Hi Ken, thanks for the reply. So, to make sure I understand what you're saying before I attempt it, I should connect the grounds of the relay and switch machine AND the track itself?

A bit more background that might help. The track is powered using a Lionel 275w ZW transformer set to (usually) 18volts. All my switches are powered by a Lionel 250w Z transformer. Connecting the grounds of the relay and switch machine AND the track would be connecting grounds from two different transformers. Is that right? I assume I would have to make sure the transformers are in phase for it to work if this is indeed the solution.

Yes, the grounds of the two transformers and the track would also need to be connected, and the grounds of any DZ1002 switch controllers as well.

Others on this forum have urged concerns with transformer phasing. I tried reversing a transformer plug with several issues I had. It had no effect in my cases. I have not pursued it. My understanding is that phasing is vital when you use section control: different transformers controlling train power to different sections of track where a single engine can cross a block boundary between the two transformers and potentially get double normal voltage if the transformers are out of phase. Particularly dangerous to newer locomotives with circuit boards full of sensitive electronics. If I understand, you are using one ZW for track power: it can never be out of phase with itself, so no danger to locomotives crossing block boundaries controlled by two different knobs. Based on my understanding, your problem will be unaffected by whether the Z feeding accessories and ZW running trains are in or out of phase. Of course, no harm in phasing them.

You could also temporarily use one knob of your ZW to control the relay and switch machines of your crossover, taking phasing out of the picture, and see what happens.

Personally, I was "sure" something was wrong with the relay. Touching the green wire to accessory power repeatedly and hearing the audible clicks forced me to change my thinking and look into the lack of a true common ground for the whole railroad. I still don't understand why it works best using train power. Someone's probably going to tell me it's because my transformers are out of phase (but I was using the same transformer for both train and accessory power).

Okay, thanks Ken. I will try that later and see if that solves my problem.

If your using 2 different transformers. Even if one is used to only power the DZ switch machine. If the relay is using the same power and also powering the rails around the diamond. I would think they would have to be in phase. Even if it’s just a couple of small rails. It will still act like a power district.

I think Ken’s got the right idea. Power the DZ stuff with the same transformer as the rest of the track and see what happens.
I’m a Tortoise guy. 12vdc to the switch motors. I then use the accessory terminal switches to power 12vdc automotive relays. The contacts on the relays use track power. So no chance of a phasing problem.

Not an expert (I have the dz1008 relays, haven't tried wiring the switches yet) but I agree, to power the DZ1000 use the same transformer as the track and see what happens.

I knew that wiring this and my double slips was going to be a challenging project.  So what I did was I wired each rail separatly and ran the wires to a central location so I could trouble shoot.  I used a terminal block to anchor all the wires. More time consuming at the begining but I could make things easier to trouble shoot and setup signals.

Ed, I did the same thing with a very early 3 way switch. Had to go with 2 relays to get everything to pass through. Worked with every engine I owned till I bought a Lionel 0-8-0. Just would have a slight arc. . Not even enough to blow a fuse. Every isolated rail either had center or outside rail power depending on the route. The rails are close together and this engine just would contact something. Luckily with most new engines they have multiple pickup rollers and I was able to disconnect two feeders and all was good for about 10 years.

I purchased a Legacy Consolidation that stalled in the same spot in either direction. Saw no way to fix it as far as the track. The wheels couldn’t find an outside rail in one spot. Traction tires and blind drivers don’t provide much of a connection.  No trailing truck on this Loco. and no electrical connection to the tender. I ended up just using a jumper wire to connect the engines chassis to the trucks of the tender. Problem solved as it now will run through it at a crawl.

You need 4 switch machines to control the 4 turnouts not two. and two 1008s to control and switch power to the inner rails.

I tried using two and D. Zander says that the 2 machines will fail.

CORRECTION: you only need one(1) DZ-1008.