Selecting the right wire

@TheRoyalHudson988 posted:

I recently got my new layout up and running and I am now in the process of adding in the legacy powermaster. My question is can you use 22 AWG solid core wires with the powermaster? Id just thought I should ask because the manual recommends 18 gauge wiring. If it is necessary to use 18 AWG, can do one send photos of spade terminals that can fit on 18 gauge wires.

If you go with 14 speaker wire, the conductor is copper stranded and each one is a different color (clear jacket) 14 is rated to 15 amps and will be fine. If you go to long runs over 20 feet than 12 same wire will help with voltage drop.

Can you send a photo on what the spade terminals would look like for 14 gauge speaker wire? Also, did you have success using this on your layout? My layout is an 8x8 so it’s not large but I would say maybe a medium sized layout. I’m just trying to stick to what the manual says for this one since it seems to be a lot more technical than the command base I have. I also want to make sure I get the right item.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...EGACYPowerMaster.pdf

Pg. 5

@TheRoyalHudson988 posted:

Can you send a photo on what the spade terminals would look like for 14 gauge speaker wire? Also, did you have success using this on your layout? My layout is an 8x8 so it’s not large but I would say maybe a medium sized layout. I’m just trying to stick to what the manual says for this one since it seems to be a lot more technical than the command base I have. I also want to make sure I get the right item.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...EGACYPowerMaster.pdf

Pg. 5

Photos below, the blue squeeze connector is great, when you come to a location where you want to have a drop to connect to the track. I use the 14 or 12 as a buss meaning it is a service line any connections to the track are taken off this, using the larger/heavy wire versus 22 gives you built in redundancy and makes it future proof.

Will 14 gauge wire that you described work with fastrack connections? This is what I have. I also have it connected as an example of what I would I’m trying to do.

@TheRoyalHudson988 posted:

Will 14 gauge wire that you described work with fastrack connections? This is what I have. I also have it connected as an example of what I would I’m trying to do.

What you do is use 18 gauge wire as the drops (connections off the 14 main) and use these connectors (stake ons) . I buy them from mouser but you can get them on E bay and I believe Amazon as well. I also make all track connections from underneath so no wire is exposed. I have enclosed a photo of the shipping label for the info on the stake on.

@ThatGuy posted:

What you do is use 18 gauge wire as the drops (connections off the 14 main) and use these connectors (stake ons) . I buy them from mouser but you can get them on E bay and I believe Amazon as well. I also make all track connections from underneath so no wire is exposed. I have enclosed a photo of the shipping label for the info on the stake on.

I have Lionel’s track terminal section (6-12016). Which has 18 AWG serrated silver wring. What I need is spade shaped connectors that will fit on this type of wire because it doesn’t come with the spades already on them. I thought I could use 22 AWG solid core at first, but the directions said to use something bigger.

@TheRoyalHudson988 posted:

I have Lionel’s track terminal section (6-12016). Which has 18 AWG serrated silver wring. What I need is spade shaped connectors that will fit on this type of wire because it doesn’t come with the spades already on them. I thought I could use 22 AWG solid core at first, but the directions said to use something bigger.

I see, so the Lionel track comes pre wired. The easy answer is cut to length tin ends and put on transformer terminals. Use more than one track connection and use the stake ons from mouser they slip on to the Lionel track terminals under each section.

@ThatGuy posted:

I see, so the Lionel track comes pre wired. The easy answer is cut to length tin ends and put on transformer terminals. Use more than one track connection and use the stake ons from mouser they slip on to the Lionel track terminals under each section.

All I really need is some spade connectors that would fit onto the wires that are on the terminals. I was wondering if you knew where I could get some 18 AWG Spade shaped terminal Connectors.

Most hardware stories or auto parts stores carry them. Since you are using 18 gauge wire, you need connectors with RED insulation.

@TheRoyalHudson988  Try Walmart, in the car audio section.  That is where I found mine.  You can get them as a complete set-up with a wire stripper / crimper or just the connectors

Make sure you get copper wire and not copper clad aluminum.

Two questions:

1. why do they have to be copper wire?

2. Would the terminal I need to use look something like this?

@TheRoyalHudson988 posted:

Two questions:

1. why do they have to be copper wire?

Because it is much, MUCH better!

2. Would the terminal I need to use look something like this?

I always preferred the "eye" soldered-on connectors. NEVER use "crimp" connectors, in my opinion.

CCA and full copper are both acceptable. You are building a train layout not the Lunar Lem. Details

@TheRoyalHudson988 posted:

Two questions:

1. why do they have to be copper wire?

2. Would the terminal I need to use look something like this?

They do not have to be full copper people really are talking about things they don’t know anything about. If you were building a mission critical device and the specifications called for full copper, it would be required. You were building a Train layout Copper clad aluminum wire is more than acceptable as a matter of fact in some of our trains, the wire used by the manufacturer is aluminum.

As my father would say, I would like to agree with you that we both would be wrong.

@ThatGuy posted:

CCA and full copper are both acceptable. You are building a train layout not the Lunar Lem. Details

They do not have to be full copper people really are talking about things they don’t know anything about. If you were building a mission critical device and the specifications called for full copper, it would be required. You were building a Train layout Copper clad aluminum wire is more than acceptable as a matter of fact in some of our trains, the wire used by the manufacturer is aluminum.

As my father would say, I would like to agree with you that we both would be wrong.

On your point with CCA and pure copper, we'll have to agree to disagree.  Sure, both conduct electricity, we can agree on that.

My problem with CCA is primarily all the CCA wire I've encountered has been more brittle than pure copper.  More importantly the CCA wire didn't solder nearly as well as pure copper.  The soldering issues are my major gripe, so I avoid CCA wire like the plague.

@ThatGuy posted:

CCA and full copper are both acceptable. You are building a train layout not the Lunar Lem. Details

They do not have to be full copper people really are talking about things they don’t know anything about. If you were building a mission critical device and the specifications called for full copper, it would be required. You were building a Train layout Copper clad aluminum wire is more than acceptable as a matter of fact in some of our trains, the wire used by the manufacturer is aluminum.

As my father would say, I would like to agree with you that we both would be wrong.

I noticed that myself, the track wire terminals aren’t copper at all. But they’re silver and serrated. I even used non copper wires form my U terminal for my command base.       Anyway, I am gonna try and find some wire crimps in 18 gauge.

@TheRoyalHudson988 posted:

I noticed that myself, the track wire terminals aren’t copper at all. But they’re silver and serrated. I even used non copper wires form my U terminal for my command base.       Anyway, I am gonna try and find some wire crimps in 18 gauge.

Just because the wire is silver, that does not mean it's not copper.  Much of the copper wire you see is tin plated to minimize oxidation.  You'll never find pure aluminum without copper coating used in our trains.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

On your point with CCA and pure copper, we'll have to agree to disagree.  Sure, both conduct electricity, we can agree on that.

My problem with CCA is primarily all the CCA wire I've encountered has been more brittle than pure copper.  More importantly the CCA wire didn't solder nearly as well as pure copper.  The soldering issues are my major gripe, so I avoid CCA wire like the plague.

it really depends John on the quality of the aluminum wire copper clad aluminum wire has been used for years in high-end electronics with very little issue. The problem with it is a lot of the Chinese stuff now made is brittle also when you solder with copper Clad aluminum wire you have to use a special solder which most people don’t have, for using with Trains I don’t really see an issue if you’re going to use it with with crimps and mechanical connections you’ll have no problems at all..

BTW John is correct the easy route is copper only, I was more commenting on one is better than the other. I have done both but working with CCA takes time to get used too.

Soldering aluminum wire is a great skill to have in your tool belt. It can be used for various projects around the house and for hobbyists as well. But, if you’re unfamiliar with soldering, it can seem like an intimidating task. Don’t worry, though, and soldering aluminum is not as difficult as it may appear. All you need are the right tools and supplies and a few tips to get started on your next project.

Gather Your Supplies

The first step to soldering aluminum is gathering all of your supplies. You’ll need flux-cored solder specifically designed for soft metals like aluminum, a soldering iron, some sandpaper, and a butane torch or heat gun. Make sure that the solder you choose is designed to work with aluminum; otherwise, it won’t adhere properly. Also, make sure that your soldering iron has adjustable temperatures so that you can adjust the heat accordingly. The sandpaper will be used to strip any paint or rust off of the wires so that they have a clean surface before soldering. Finally, use either a butane torch or heat gun to preheat the wires before applying the solder.

Prepare Your Wires

Now it’s time to prepare your wires for soldering by stripping off any paint or rust from their surfaces. Use the sandpaper provided in your kit for this step, and make sure both wires are completely free of foreign particles before moving forward with the actual soldering process. Once both wires are clean, use the heat gun or butane torch to preheat them until they start turning red-hot (around 350°F). This will help ensure that the solder adheres properly when applied later on in the process.

Solder Your Wires

Your wires should now be ready for soldering—the last step! Put on some safety glasses and gloves before getting started just in case any hot metal particles fly off during this process (this could cause burns). Now take your flux-cored solder and begin applying it directly onto both ends of each wire while holding them together at the same time with pliers or something similar. Make sure there is enough solder on both ends so that they stay connected securely without gaps between them once cooled down and solidified (usually takes about 10-15 seconds).

Congratulations! You’ve just successfully soldered aluminum wire!

ThatGuy,

Do you have a layout? If so, did you use that aluminum wire stuff? How was it to solder, mostly upside-down, working under the layout?

Bottom line, you wire your layout any way you desire but, I always looked for the easy and most reliable methods on my layouts, both HO and O.

@ThatGuy posted:

The first step to soldering aluminum is gathering all of your supplies.

It's interesting reading, I never actually thought about soldering aluminum.  That might come in handy for making other stuff out of aluminum.  However the quote below alone would preclude me from ever using this for electrical work!  No way I use acid core solder for my wiring!  I use it when I'm doing plumbing jobs, but I'm using it on copper pipes.

"When selecting solder to use on aluminum, you should always choose an acid-core fluxed solder that contains no zinc."

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's interesting reading, I never actually thought about soldering aluminum.  That might come in handy for making other stuff out of aluminum.  However the quote below alone would preclude me from ever using this for electrical work!  No way I use acid core solder for my wiring!  I use it when I'm doing plumbing jobs, but I'm using it on copper pipes.

"When selecting solder to use on aluminum, you should always choose an acid-core fluxed solder that contains no zinc."

forgot to add that thank you John........this is getting to be a habit.

Aluminum is not near as good as copper as far as conducting electricity goes. But if it works for you. 

Terminations (Aluminum to Copper) tend to be a problem.  Over time there is a chemical reaction, and deterioration, of the connection.  In the big electrical world, there are (plated) split bolts, that isolate the aluminum and copper. In general, Aluminum conductor, should be two sizes larger, for the same amperage. Example: (#4 copper = #2 aluminum)  And sometime that does not work.  There is also Oxide inhibitor, which helps with a connection.   I used a lot of (solid) 18 gauge Thermostat wire, on my layout, available from the big box stores, or a local electrical, (or heating), supply store.  Multi conductor up to 12 per cable. 2 and 3 wire cables were the most used, for wiring switched turnouts. Thermostat wire is also color coded.   Have fun with your layout. Mike CT.

@feet posted:

Aluminum is not near as good as copper as far as conducting electricity goes. But if it works for you.

Actually your mixing terms aluminum wire is for superior  to copper for conducting electricity. This is why it is used extensively in the high voltage world. That said, copper clad aluminum wire I’ve used for years with very little issues I also use solid copper depending on what’s available and what the application is, the thing to remember is be aware of what you’re using and what the limitations are

@ThatGuy posted:

aluminum wire is foster period a copper for conducting electricity.

Could you explain this statement, please? You lost me at "foster".

@John H posted:

Could you explain this statement, please? You lost me at "foster".

I was using voice dictation, I had no idea what that was I did correct the sentence.

@ThatGuy posted:

Actually your mixing terms aluminum wire is for superior  to copper for conducting electricity. This is why it is used extensively in the high voltage world. That said, copper clad aluminum wire I’ve used for years with very little issues I also use solid copper depending on what’s available and what the application is, the thing to remember is be aware of what you’re using and what the limitations are

It is used in the high voltage field as well as underground  but look how much bigger aluminum wire has to be to do the same job copper would do. Alot of home were wired with aluminum  wiring and Alot of them burned down leading to it being outlawed for wiring homes.

@feet posted:

It is used in the high voltage field as well as underground  but look how much bigger aluminum wire has to be to do the same job copper would do. Alot of home were wired with aluminum  wiring and Alot of them burned down leading to it being outlawed for wiring homes.

While you are correct that houses did burn down that’s another one of Darwin‘s rules. You can’t fix stupid. Aluminum wiring is as safe as copper. You just have to use it correctly and people do not like to pay for the more expensive nuts, switches and outlets. It is superior when it comes to heat dissipation but we way off target at this point.

@Mike CT posted:

Terminations (Aluminum to Copper) tend to be a problem.  Over time there is a chemical reaction, and deterioration, of the connection.  In the big electrical world, there are (plated) split bolts, that isolate the aluminum and copper. In general, Aluminum conductor, should be two sizes larger, for the same amperage. Example: (#4 copper = #2 aluminum)  And sometime that does not work.  There is also Oxide inhibitor, which helps with a connection.   I used a lot of (solid) 18 gauge Thermostat wire, on my layout, available from the big box stores, or a local electrical, (or heating), supply store.  Multi conductor up to 12 per cable. 2 and 3 wire cables were the most used, for wiring switched turnouts. Thermostat wire is also color coded.   Have fun with your layout. Mike CT.

Correct an aluminum to copper connection can be an issue, but you must do it correctly and use the proper parts. Special wire nuts, special nuts, special crimps all of these things make it perfectly fine but most people do not want to pay the extra cost and they tend to take shortcuts. This leads to lots of screaming and people running for their lives.

It absolutely astounds me how you guys can over-complicate a simple question. The OP asked if he could use 22 gauge wire instead of 18. That was it! His “answer” has now run to more than a dozen replies and a dissertation on aluminum wire. Geez.

The answer to the OP’s question is…NO.

Done.

@Rich Melvin posted:

It absolutely astounds me how you guys can over-complicate a simple question. The OP asked if he could use 22 gauge wire instead of 18. That was it! His “answer” has now run to more than a dozen replies and a dissertation on aluminum wire. Geez.

The answer to the OP’s question is…NO.

Done.

OK Rich, I read back over the whole topic and you do have a valid point.   I guess this one went a little overboard.

@Rich Melvin posted:

It absolutely astounds me how you guys can over-complicate a simple question. The OP asked if he could use 22 gauge wire instead of 18. That was it! His “answer” has now run to more than a dozen replies and a dissertation on aluminum wire. Geez.

The answer to the OP’s question is…NO.

Done.

I didn't intend that to happen. I just recommended copper wire  and it snowballed down hill from there.

@Rich Melvin posted:

It absolutely astounds me how you guys can over-complicate a simple question. The OP asked if he could use 22 gauge wire instead of 18. That was it! His “answer” has now run to more than a dozen replies and a dissertation on aluminum wire. Geez.

The answer to the OP’s question is…NO.

Done.

Mr Melvin, is this your first visit to the OGR forum?

Actually what was the wire you used to sell in the OGR store? It seemed to work well.

@feet posted:

I didn't intend that to happen. I just recommended copper wire  and it snowballed down hill from there.

I understand, and what happened here was actually a good thing. It illustrates the depth of knowledge present among our members, as well as their willingness to share that knowledge with others. But there are times when a simple and direct answer is a more appropriate response. This was one of those times.

@cbojanower posted:

...Actually what was the wire you used to sell in the OGR store? It seemed to work well.

It did work well. It was 16 and 14 gauge stranded copper wire. I don't recall the specific manufacturer and it has been many years since we carried in the OGR web store.

Hello everyone, I just want to say thank you for all of your suggestions and advice. I recently ordered some terminals in 18 gauge and I’m now running my trains. I wish I could send a video but it’s blurry. By the way, for those who don’t know, the Blue legacy powermaster does in fact work with the original Tmcc command base.