Service/Repair Manuals

You can look for the Greenberg's Repair and Operating Manual (http://www.amazon.com/Greenber...5-1969/dp/0897784553).   HSL Digital Archives also has the Lionel service manuals in digital form - PDFs (http://www.hslinc.com/dahome/dalpwsmhome.html).

I have both.  The digital archive is well done, easy to use and has more extensive coverage.  The Greenberg book is good as well and does cover the 221.

- Luther Stanton

Hi David,

Luther's suggestions are excellent.  I have both and they are really useful for repairing just about every post war item.  Olsen's has a of directory with pictures of the instructions, you can download them and even order parts from them. 

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/

I have also used JWtrains.com as a source.  The instructions are very helpful because he walks you through  step by step how to take it apart and then put it back together.

Lastly, Peter Riddle had an article in OGR in the December 2012 issue on reparing a pre-war engine, which may be similar to yours; he also had a repair article on whistles in Classic Toy Trains in their December 2012.

Good Luck!

Ok I know that the Service Manuals are available for SALE either through HSL or Greenbergs book. Why are they not available for free download online (unlocked PDF)?  Olsens has many that are in their library and you can look at them and save them. However you can not print them. This is 2013 the copyrights expired long ago. The service manuals were closely guarded and mainly available it seems only to service stations in the past. I mean I can download any thing that I would want for say a model T or how steel is made etc... Maybe I am just being cheap??

Well, this is an interesting topic.  The rules about which copyrights have or have not expired are unbelievably complicated. I am no lawyer, but as best I can tell, items published in the Postwar era probably are still protected by copyright, but ONLY if have explicit copyright notices, and (I think) only if their copyright was renewed 28 years after publication. 

It appears that most or all Lionel catalogs DO have copyright notices.  (Who knows whether or not they were renewed?).  However, the Service Manual pages mostly do NOT appear to contain such notices, so quite possibly they are in the public domain. (Greenberg and Olson seem to think so--there is no evidence that they had permission to reproduce them, and it doesn't look like Lionel has challenged them).

I repeat, I am not a lawyer, so take all of this with a grain of salt. My only real point is that the question is not as simple as it seems.

Perhaps they aren't free because someone bothered to compile them for a book, pdf file or disk, or whatever, and thought they should be compensated for doing the work the rest of us don't have resources or time for. Almost sounds like a business, making things easy for people and charging for it. Seems like a lot of folks on this forum don't get that anymore.

Sorry to be so crass, but the last couple weeks on the forum reading about stolen model designs, blowouts, and high prices makes me think everyone here thinks O-gauge should be given away. 

The fact is that the law is very clear about copyrights vs the public domain.  Doing something creative (such as making a new design or writing a repair manual) gives the author a monopoly on selling that material for a limited period of time. It is a quid pro quo between the author and society.  Once that period of time has expired, the material is free for all. Doing something purely mechanical (i.e., not creative) such as making a .PDF file of somebody else's work cannot be protected (at least not in the USA), and so is free to all.   You may not like this, but it is the law, and most people believe it to be a good thing.  

There is a big difference between stealing a copyrighted design (which is indeed theft), and copying a public-domain document (which is sharing information whose author has already earned his due).

Olsen's provide a great service to the industry,  so  I do try and buy parts from them, they do sell their version of the service manuals, which I suspect that you would be able to print them out at a good quality.  Its their right to protect their pdfs so as to not allow you to print them out. If you need a hard copy you can always do a screen print...  

Olsens used to sell a CD of service instructions. Perhaps they lock the online PDF's in the hope people will buy the CD.

I don't know whether the CD is still available, or how it compares to the online material.

The post war service supplements are available for download from Lionel.  They are pdf's and there is no block on them.  Thet are also a pita to use because there isn't a master index.  

This is why the published versions or Olsen's site is so attractive.  You can find the document's very easily, plus, those engines/cars/accessories that were updated have all of the updates in one place instead of strewn through various service supplement bulletins.

quote:

The post war service supplements are available for download from Lionel.  They are pdf's and there is no block on them.  Thet are also a pita to use because there isn't a master index.  

Lionel has the entire modern era service manual available online. Much of the older material is about the same as the Postwar material. As far as I know, Olsens is the place to go for Postwar material.

Postwar (Olsens)

Modern (Lionel)

Thanks brr, and well said. Much more politely than I would have, as well. If gold bullion were given away, there would still be people who would complain that it is too heavy.

There are no "postwar supplements" on the Lionel site, as mentioned. Olsen's Postwar CD does allow printing, so if hard copy is important to you, ante up and do the right thing. The least you can do is buy parts from them. To use their info and then buy elsewhere is equivalent to retail "showrooming", a shameful practice becoming much too common these days.

As my wise old granny used to say, "let your conscience be your guide"....

No problem to print them, you just have to have the key.

First, download all the pages of the item you are interested in.

Go to this site: On-Line PDF Document Manipulation

You can first merge all the pages into one document so it's easier to use.  Next, you can use the unlock to remove the print lock and then you can print it.

I stand corrected.  The supplement 1-9 starts the "modern" era and starts with 1970.  There is a Greenberg book on repairs of these trains that falls between the PW manual and the "modern" stuff that includes actual service tips along with exploded diagrams and parts lists.

Below is a picture of the repair manuals I have used over the years.  There may be a few others.

On the lower left is the three volume reprint of the Lionel Service and Repair Manual by Ralph A Scull, May 1974.

I have all the copies and supplements of the Lionel Service Manual, Parts & Exploded Diagrams on the lower right, three+ binders, 1970 on.

My most used is the Greenberg's Repair & Operating Manual for Lionel Trains, Copyright 1985.  I just picked up a spare soft cover and a hard cover edition.  I now have one by my service area and one by the layout service area.

John:

I also have that 3-volume 1974 Ralph Scull reprint which is probably about 80% complete.  Have you been able to find any of the missing pages?

My original binders were wearing out and those metal clips were causing the holes in the paper to enlarge so I put the pages into large 3-ring binders which makes them easier to work with as I can fully open them up so that they lie flat for reading the inside edges of the pages.

Go Pirates!

Bill

The shell of the tender is sheet metal and is held on with tabs that are bent over under the frame.  When you go to remove the shell you need to becareful with the sheet metal tabs. It takes about three bends befor they break off. Start unbending them with a screw driver. Then finish with needle nose pliers. Do not unbend them any farther than you have to.  When you put the cover back on, do not bend the tabs back down.  Use the pliers to give them a little twist. This will hold the cover on but puts a lot less cold work into the tabs.  They are much less likely to break off.

Why can't you buy modern era service/ repair manuals? I like to work on my engines myself but MTH and Lionel modern era manuals i have yet to find.

Actually, one of the Supps is the index, which I believe was updated and replaced by Supp 23. The problem is, it doesn't include any Supplements after Supp 25. And for whatever reason, Lionel hasn't seen fit to do another index update to cover the stuff after Supp 25.

Oh! And if you use the Greenberg Postwar Repair Manual, make sure you post the errata to the appropriate pages. There's quite a bit of stuff in the wrong location, and a couple of the parts location pictures are backwards.

Lionel's website only has service manuals from 1970- onwards 

Regarding Olsen's I was not trying to make my own book and print out every single page. No I just wanted a few pages.  But he has it locked. I dont see how I would be doing him an injustice or denying any body profit, if i printed out two or three pages and fixed my train. Besides all the service and repair places near me are out of business. I reluctantly had to learn to attempt to fix my trains myself (happy to do so) but I refuse to pay a guy five states away $80 an hour to clean an put in new brushes or something..

I am able to save individual pages. I am using IE 10 (current) and windows 8. I have printed pages in the past, I will try to figure out how I did it.

Look a bit farther up in the thread, the secret to printing them will be revealed.

Thanks. I am aware of the PDF unlockers. I know I didn't use one previously. Being a long time IT guy, I am just wondering how I did it.