So how many of you ARE into the 21" passenger cars? If so, do you run them?

I am. In fact, I'm selling off all my non scale length passenger cars.

I've been reading this forum regularly for a few years, and the answer is:  LOTS OF PEOPLE!

Folks are constantly showing off their 21" cars (the Atlas CZ in both 2-rail and 3-rail forms have been popular lately).  There are lots of threads about running 89' auto racks and the 86' box cars.   I personally was running the Auto Racks on o-99 Atlas 3-rail track, as well as the CZ cars.   Then there are all the threads on the GGD offerings, not to mention the old K-line 21" cars.

I'd say its the "in" thing nowadays... 

I run four different sets of 21" passenger cars, and one set of MTH premier that I just aguired this summer. Run the long freight cars also. 120" dia. curves here and that is still to small. 

Clem k

I do not run long cars as I don't have the curves. These cars look silly on even 72" curves. Seems crazy to hold to prototypical accuracy on the car length only to run them on very un-prototypical sharp curves. 

I'm running them. Got hooked by the Atlas CZ cars and Lionel auto racks. Right now I max out with 072 curves but I don't mind the over hang since the cars are so nicely detailed  

The good news here is that if you like the 18 inch cars I would expect to see a lot of them for sale soon as people make the switch. 

The 21" passenger cars look terrific but I do not run them as they require a very large layout with large radius curves for the effect.  It would not be practical to run them on my 28' x15' layout that has 048, 054 and 078 curves as the consists would have to be shortened considerably and they would not navigate the curves. I love scale size trains but they just don't fit on what we have here and visitors don't even  see the difference.

bigtruckpete posted:

I'm running them. Got hooked by the Atlas CZ cars and Lionel auto racks. Right now I max out with 072 curves but I don't mind the over hang since the cars are so nicely detailed  

The good news here is that if you like the 18 inch cars I would expect to see a lot of them for sale soon as people make the switch. 

graz posted:

I do not run long cars as I don't have the curves. These cars look silly on even 72" curves. Seems crazy to hold to prototypical accuracy on the car length only to run them on very un-prototypical sharp curves. 

ALL ROLLING STOCK in o-gauge is running on too tight/non-prototypical curves.  I'm calling BS on this response.  If you are running 40ft box-cars on o-54 curves, you are just as guilty as the so called "crazy" people you mention here.  I'll bet whatever you are running on your layout is "silly" looking too.

That being said, I do agree that we need to get away from this perception that o-72 is somehow a wide curve.  It is not.

Hot Water posted:

I am. In fact, I'm selling off all my non scale length passenger cars.

I'm curious to know what size cars you own that aren't scale sized?  

I looked at Lionels new NYC 21" cars.   They're beautifully done,  but 84' cars are way to long for my O72 basement sized layout.   Actually, they and those new 89' auto racks would look just plain silly when compared to all else I own..

Hopefully,  Lionel will put that same detail effort into scale sized 18"  ABS cars at a lower cost.  (dreaming)    For now, I'll remain a loyal MTH scale 72' ABS passenger car fan.  Love them things!!   They serve my needs perfectly,  Look great and sell at a far lower price point.
joe

JC642 posted:

Hot Water posted:

I am. In fact, I'm selling off all my non scale length passenger cars.

I'm curious to know what size cars you own that aren't scale sized?  

All the MTH Premier passenger cars, that I purchased years ago. I have already sold off my entire UP passenger train set, and currently have my SP passenger train set for sale (at the Hi-Rail Club in Griffith, IN.).

joe

Hot Water, What are you selling? Im building a layout with large curves.

mike g. posted:

Hot Water, What are you selling?

As I just stated above, all my MTH Premier passenger cars. 

Im building a layout with large curves.

How large will your curves be? If you are building with larger than 072, then why wouldn't you want scale length passenger equipment?

For years and years I ran Lionel traditional, then gradually moved up to Std O. I guess it's partially what you get accustomed to. Those 89' auto racks look HUGE to me.

Before he passed, I was at Boxcar Bill's home and he had a large layout. One of his sons had bought the auto racks and Bill had it out. He ended up taking it off, didn't "look" right.

Congrats to those that have the layouts to make those monsters fit in!

Hot Water posted:

JC642 posted:

Hot Water posted:

I am. In fact, I'm selling off all my non scale length passenger cars.

I'm curious to know what size cars you own that aren't scale sized?  

All the MTH Premier passenger cars, that I purchased years ago. I have already sold off my entire UP passenger train set, and currently have my SP passenger train set for sale (at the Hi-Rail Club in Griffith, IN.).

joe

 It's not just wide curves,  You also need straight open runs of 40' or more to appreciate a train hauling 10' feet or more of passenger cars  plus the engine...      My guess is, two laps around any O72 sized layout is all it'll take to know you fell for the hype and made another costly  mistake.

joe

PRRHSC,

   I ran my original big Yellow & Gray Williams UP City of San Fan with it's 21" Passenger Cars on the 1st level of my large Game Room/Office layout for many years, however when I wanted to run them on the 2nd or 3rd levels, I needed to alternate them with my 18" passenger cars.  Now that I only put up the smaller multi-level Christmas layout, they can only run on the 1st level with the FasTrack 072 Y Switches, so they do not get run nearly as much these days.  I really do miss having the space for a bigger layout.

PCRR/Dave

Hot Water posted:

I am. In fact, I'm selling off all my non scale length passenger cars.

Me too. All of my MTH Premier cars are gone. The modular club has two mainlines 072/081. My home layout is bigger 0138 max 072 min. My straights are "only" 39'....

I'm running GGD 21" cars with a handful of Weaver 20" cars. All N&W.

JC642 posted:

Hot Water posted:

JC642 posted:

Hot Water posted:

I am. In fact, I'm selling off all my non scale length passenger cars.

I'm curious to know what size cars you own that aren't scale sized?  

All the MTH Premier passenger cars, that I purchased years ago. I have already sold off my entire UP passenger train set, and currently have my SP passenger train set for sale (at the Hi-Rail Club in Griffith, IN.).

joe

 It's not just wide curves,  You also need straight open runs of 40' or more to appreciate a train hauling 10' feet or more of passenger cars  plus the engine...      My guess is, two laps around any O72 sized layout is all it'll take to know you fell for the hype and made another costly  mistake.

joe

Obviously opinions on your part.

A couple of years ago I spoke with the Weaver people at York and asked if they considered making 18 inch Pullman Bradly cars. I was told they regretted not designing the tooling to make both 18 and 21-inch cars but it was to expensive to change. Too few people have layouts large enough to run 21-inch cars. 

Hot Water posted:

JC642 posted:

Hot Water posted:

JC642 posted:

Hot Water posted:

I am. In fact, I'm selling off all my non scale length passenger cars.

I'm curious to know what size cars you own that aren't scale sized?  

All the MTH Premier passenger cars, that I purchased years ago. I have already sold off my entire UP passenger train set, and currently have my SP passenger train set for sale (at the Hi-Rail Club in Griffith, IN.).

.joe

 It's not just wide curves,  You also need straight open runs of 40' or more to appreciate a train hauling 10' feet or more of passenger cars  plus the engine...      My guess is, two laps around any O72 sized layout is all it'll take to know you fell for the hype and made another costly  mistake.

joe

Obviously opinions on your part.

The mind is a strange thing.   I suppose you could learn to like it.

Joe

Richard E posted:

A couple of years ago I spoke with the Weaver people at York and asked if they considered making 18 inch Pullman Bradly cars. I was told they regretted not designing the tooling to make both 18 and 21-inch cars but it was to expensive to change. Too few people have layouts large enough to run 21-inch cars. 

If that's the case, then why is Lionel "jumping in to the 21" passenger line"?

Add me to the list of those that do like them and run them. I was surprised at the WEIGHT of these things - very impressive, long and lean.

Like a lot of us O gaugers, I lack the real estate for O72+ curves that are required to run the 21" cars.  I prefer the 18" cars, which IMHO are a nice compromise between the full scale 21" cars and the stubby looking (at least to me) 15" ones.

I would like to thank MTH for making both 18" streamline and heavyweight cars in B&M and New Haven liveries--I have several sets.  Still waiting for a Maine Central streamlined set with a pair of green F3s! 

JC642 posted:

 

...    My guess is, two laps around any O72 sized layout is all it'll take to know you fell for the hype and made another costly  mistake.

Most accurate post in the entire thread!!!  

David

Like Richard E, I would also love to see the 18" Boston and Maine Pullman-Bradleys.  Maine Central and the Bangor and Aroostook had them too!

I have the Atlas 11 car Ca Zephyr train running on all 096 mainline curve and they look ok.

Mikey

Hot Water posted:he centipedes..

Richard E posted:

A couple of years ago I spoke with the Weaver people at York and asked if they considered making 18 inch Pullman Bradly cars. I was told they regretted not designing the tooling to make both 18 and 21-inch cars but it was to expensive to change. Too few people have layouts large enough to run 21-inch cars. 

If that's the case, then why is Lionel "jumping in to the 21" passenger line"?

Simple,  Its a small slice of the total market that can use them.  Lionel probably feels they could take it mainstream and make money..    Reminds me of the centipedes.    IMO, the market for them will die as fast as it began.  

Joe

Don't have room for 21" cars, but I'm kinda partial to 6-1/2" all steel ones anyway!  LOL

Hot Water posted:

Richard E posted:

... Too few people have layouts large enough to run 21-inch cars. 

If that's the case, then why is Lionel "jumping in to the 21" passenger line"?

Because toy train enthusiasts are always looking for something "new", and for the most part we buy on emotion.  PhD candidates would have a field day writing a thesis using this group as a basis for their research.

It's crazy enough that folks buy these huge, articulated $2K locomotives that they don't have the right layout for.  So now Lionel figures they can sell those same folks an entire train that will look even more awkward on small layouts.  Easy money. 

Hopefully, most buyers will at least have lots of wall space to display their purchases. 

David 

At some point in time I'll see some 21" passenger cars in a road name I want and will definitely add them to my stable. Would like to see the UP Excursion set done accurately, and despite not having a set of E8's, I'd probably buy an accurate CNW 400 passenger set.

Martin H said:

"ALL ROLLING STOCK in o-gauge is running on too tight/non-prototypical curves.  I'm calling BS on this response.  If you are running 40ft box-cars on o-54 curves, you are just as guilty as the so called "crazy" people you mention here.  I'll bet whatever you are running on your layout is "silly" looking too."

Same thing I was thinking   How bout anything on 027?!?!?!

Most of my passenger cars are 21", a couple of shorter cars (K-Line Diner and Baggage cars).  I still have 3 MTH Premier cars that, not only are short, the trucks are small too.  I'll be selling them soon.

A 21" car going round an 072 curve overhangs about 1-1/4" on the inside of the curve, from the outside it's maybe 1/2 that.  So if you're looking at it from the outside IMO it's hardly noticeable.  I will admit I would not go with 21" cars on 054 curves, been there, didn't work.

Real trains have overhang too, even on wide curves (2nd photo taken from overpass in Petersburg):

I have five sets of 18" pax cars (seven to 13 cars), and two sets of 21" cars (12 +/- cars), plus extras of each for commuter trains. My tightest inside curve on the two track main is 81" diameter. 

First off, I do not notice the overhang probably because my table is 50" high so I'm not looking down on the trains when sitting on my bar stools. Even standing up (I'm 6') it has never bothered me.  

To me, a train made up of 18" cars looks good.  I do not have any MTH cars in the mix because to me they are noticeably smaller than Lionel's or K-Line's aluminum cars.

However, the 21" cars do look better to me especially when used with scale head in cars. I run a mix of K-Line and GGD cars.

I liked running all my pax sets and can't wait until my new layout is operating again to run them. I probably would run the 21" sets over the18" sets.  However, to me the  difference between an 18" set and a 21" set is really only noticeable when they are parked next to each other.

Being a confirmed passenger nut all scale except the Mil set from MTH.

Bob Delbridge posted:

Martin H said:

"ALL ROLLING STOCK in o-gauge is running on too tight/non-prototypical curves. 

A 21" car going round an 072 curve overhangs about 1-1/4" on the inside of the curve, from the outside it's maybe 1/2 that.  So if you're looking at it from the outside IMO it's hardly noticeable.  I will admit I would not go with 21" cars on 054 curves, been there, didn't work.

With 21" cars and my articulated locomotives, I even see non-prototypical overhang even on my 0138 curves. Not whack-a-doodle, but clearly not "realistic". I'm thinking we'd need to go to 0288+ to start  looking prototypical.

Despite the overhang, I'm in the "go-big, or go-home" camp.

handyandy posted:

Don't have room for 21" cars, but I'm kinda partial to 6-1/2" all steel ones anyway!  LOL

Nice set!! What year?

Bob Delbridge posted:

Martin H said:

"ALL ROLLING STOCK in o-gauge is running on too tight/non-prototypical curves.  I'm calling BS on this response.  If you are running 40ft box-cars on o-54 curves, you are just as guilty as the so called "crazy" people you mention here.  I'll bet whatever you are running on your layout is "silly" looking too."

Same thing I was thinking   How bout anything on 027?!?!?!

Most of my passenger cars are 21", a couple of shorter cars (K-Line Diner and Baggage cars).  I still have 3 MTH Premier cars that, not only are short, the trucks are small too.  I'll be selling them soon.

A 21" car going round an 072 curve overhangs about 1-1/4" on the inside of the curve, from the outside it's maybe 1/2 that.  So if you're looking at it from the outside IMO it's hardly noticeable.  I will admit I would not go with 21" cars on 054 curves, been there, didn't work.

Real trains have overhang too, even on wide curves (2nd photo taken from overpass in Petersburg):

Nobody has said it can't be done...

I'm saying, on most layouts and most would agree, the smaller the train the better it looks...

That's why on my layout, 50' cars are the norm and steams no bigger then a Mountain look best...  

The Allegheny (I've had two over the years and sold both) has no place on my layout.

Joe

I run all 21" Amtrak Superliners, which look fantastic! The length alone tells the story- I run these on O112" curves-

I have them and run them.

To answer the original posters questions: Are you into 21 inch passenger cars? My answer is it depends.

For club running where space is available, it like the longer (18 ~21) cars. I do not have the space at home for these cars so; there I use 12~15 inch cars. Even the 18 inch are too large (visually) for my home layout.

I guess I look at trains as I do tools. I use the right tool for the right job. I can run 21 inch cars on 072~080 something, and I can use a hammer to drive a screw into wood, it’s just not the right tool for me on either account.

Since I do have passenger trains in 12, 15, 18 and 21 cars, I will say that my overall preference is 18 inch cars for the most visual pleasing AND most practical for most of my situations. If the Midwest TCA modular group did not exist, I would not have 21 inch cars.

Speaking of Lionel and 18 inch cars. I was under the impression that Lionel stated they will be bringing back the 18 inch cars in the near future using the new tooling or modified tooling that the 21 inch cars use. I could be wrong, but that was my impression.

I do think there is a double standard for passenger cars vs. freight cars. While we can shoe horn in scale freight cars to a small layout, the same cannot be said for passenger cars. One of the better layouts on the O Scale March Meet tour seems to always have a long passenger train running. The layout is fantastic; the train is nice as well, but way too big for the layout in my opinion. The freight trains in the same space visually seem ok for some reason.

Bottom line, we all make our own choices for our own reasons and move on.

Charlie

BobbyD posted:

handyandy posted:

Don't have room for 21" cars, but I'm kinda partial to 6-1/2" all steel ones anyway!  LOL

 

Nice set!! What year?

Thanks. The cars are from the mid 1920's. The coaches are from '24 or '25 and the baggage and Obs are a year or two newer, as they have later trucks than the other two.

Gilly@N&W posted:

With 21" cars and my articulated locomotives, I even see non-prototypical overhang even on my 0138 curves.

Despite the overhang, I'm in the "go-big, or go-home" camp.

I'm with you.  I was surprised on 0-140 how much overhang a Big Boy or 21" passenger car had...

I love the 21" cars-I own over 50 of them.  Will buy more.

UP Excursion Train-can't wait to get my hands on it.  Waited forever for THAT  train!