Some thoughts on Driving wheels on locomotives.

I never have to clean the wheels on my engines. I have done a couple of them in routine maintenance only because I used to do it in HO scale. I run mainly MTH engines with a couple of other brands I converted to MTH control. 

I do have one Atlas Dash 8 engine that also has never had the wheels cleaned. If an engine acts up and I take it to the bench, I do look at the wheel condition and they're OK usually. I have had one or two that I took a pencil eraser to for cleaning. I have a lot of engines and if I were running into what you describe, I'd be constantly cleaning.

Just today I'm cutting rails and adding crossovers to connect my mainlines. The track looked great after about 2 or 3 years ( maybe 5?) of running with the smoke on and no cleaning. I did see a couple of very short black streaks on the bright frog area of my oldest switches and cleaned those today. It felt like a rubber substance or maybe burnt oil? No bigger than the tip of a pencil. An eraser (or my shirt sleeve once) took it right off. All my engines are fairly recent models built over the last ten years or so. You must have some of the same as mine?

 So... I'm wondering if there's something else between your experience and mine? What type of heat in your house vs. mine? Are you using Nickle silver rails?

Got to be something different! Do you burn wood? Heavy dust on your buildings and benchwork?

Don't have your preempt answer but if you have all wheel pick up you can position one truck on a clean white rag, add power and move the truck on the rag back and forth a little until the rag is no longer picking up dirt.  Swap trucks and do it again.  Use a non linting rag.   

I have found that brass or plated wheels, and particularly die cast wheels, pick up crud and re- distribute it.  I believe that, if you convert to all carbon steel wheels you will minimize the problem.

I admit to being a dirty guy - train room is essentially outdoors, and has a table saw in the middle.  One loop steel, two loops nickel silver, one loop brass.  Only thing that ever gets really dirty is the track - unless a locomotive sits for longer than six months I do not need to clean the wheels.

Just me, probably.

Thank you for the replies so far.

I am going to take a photo of the wheels that are dirty close up so you can see what I mean.

E-J  I am taken back that you never clean wheels I must be doing something wrong. The room is for trains only there is no workshop in the room it is 30 feet X 30 feet square.

The room with the trains in it is a part of the house it is a double brick walled house with concrete slab this is standard for West Australia. The climate is warm to very hot. In the winter we don't use a heater the "train" room has it's own reverse cycle Air conditioner.

Bob2  maybe it was you that mentioned a long time ago somewhere else about using steel wheels on locos. 

My track is all nickel silver.

Tom. thanks for the tip on cleaning wheels.

I'll be back with photos. Roo.

I very seldom cleaned wheels when I ran straight DC.    Now that I have DCC and other conditions are the same as near as I can tell, I get dirty wheels a lot.    I think my rate of requiring cleaning is similar to yours.

I have wondered if the DCC signal which is square wave AC, might be putting up a static field that attracts dust/dirt.

I don't have all steel wheels on my car fleet.    I have a number of cars that have Athearn delrin wheelsets.    Some friends say the delrin wears off onto the rail.   I don't think this happens.   Delrin is engineering plastic and is a version of the same material used on slide bearings on machine tools in the auto industry that run 20 hours per day in some cases and don't wear out for years.    I worked in the industry for some time.

So I don't know the solution, but I have many types of wheels and see the same problems.    I do notice that older All-Nation locos and such with sintered steel wheels can pit from sparking and then get very prone to picking up dirt.   

 I got an older 2 rail MTH Allegheny from the late '90s I believe that I upgraded to PS3. At first the engine did not run that well. After doing a full conversion to 2 rail on another PS2 3 rail version, I knew right what to do. I added power pick-up wipers to several spots on the engine so that each doesn't have to do the whole job at any given second. I believe spreading the power points out like that helps out. If the engine encounters some bump or power problem, it glides right over it. Before the mods I would see heavy sparking and would notice problems arising. Even a type of pitting on the back of the main drivers where the wipers made contact.

 So I'm wondering now, if your engines are drawing higher current thru their pick-ups and creating dirty spots on the rails and wheels that need more attention for you? Does your system have any type of keep alive circuit to help the engines? I'm thinking that helps from the engine have to draw full current and spark excessively. The MTH engine at least, do this for the sound portion of the board. I realize your running mainly diesels with less axles.

Different metals tend to do strange things when placed together. Some less then others.  As an electrician, copper and Aluminum do not play well together, requiring special splicing and terminations.  Wheel metal and track metal, may be different, add electricity and you may see some of the effects.  i.e. that copper ring on ferrous wheels.   IMO  Mike CT. 

Often thought that a lot of the crude was traction tire.  Are there traction tires with two rail????   

Hi Roo, sorry you've left the Guild forum.  Anyway, dirty wheels - garden layout English weather - hair clipper oil, very, very light oil.  Sewing m/c oil also used.  No plastic wheels, Delrin wheels certainly pick up large amounts of crud.  Indoors should be better and clean the track with lint-free cloth with a few drops of the oil, not the dreaded abrasive block.

Jason

Mike CT posted:

Different metals tend to do strange things when placed together. Some less then others.  As an electrician, copper and Aluminum do not play well together, requiring special splicing and terminations.  Wheel metal and track metal, may be different, add electricity and you may see some of the effects.  i.e. that copper ring on ferrous wheels.   IMO  Mike CT. 

Often thought that a lot of the crude was traction tire.  Are there traction tires with two rail????   

 

not that I've seen. Maybe years ago on certain brands? Most 2 rail people would avoid them.

MTH features them on many product lines. They do not use them on scale wheel models in O.

There have been many posts about cleaning track, so I do not know if this will add much to the conversation, but here goes.....

Obviously, it is better to not contaminate the track and wheels to begin with!!!

I also run two rail DC, and can operate with conventional DC or the MTH DCS system.  My two rail layout uses code 148 MicroScale Engineering nickel silver track, and I use Bridgewerks two handle 10 amp per side throttles.  My layout has blocks.

I have noticed that the track stays much cleaner if I keep the amperage per throttle below two amps, and there are ways to do this:

1) If you run passenger trains and the cars have incandescent lights and not LED's, turn the lights out to reduce the amperage.  (You can run with lights when operating at night!)

2) Try to minimize operation with smoke units turned on.  Previous posts have stated that the smoke deposits an oily film on the tracks, and was the reason for the track contamination.  I don't believe that.  I believe that the additional amperage required to operate the smoke units increases the amperage on the track to almost four amps, and this amperage gets track dirty in a hurry.  So I operate smoke only when starting a train, and minimize track deposits to only a small section of track. 

3) My traditional O scale engines all have can motors and run at no more than one amp.  Also, my MTH Premier engines run at no more than 1-1/2 amps without smoke.  Since the power required to the track for the older O scale should be 12 volts or less, and the DCS engines run at 18 volts, the POWER (ie Volts times Amps) required for operation of the DCS engines is provided mostly by the voltage.  On my two rail steam, I lube the power transfer centerplates of each tender truck with No-Ox, which is a conductive paste designed and sold to prevent brass oxidation.  (You should look at EVERY interface where electricity is conducted since even one low conductance link is a weak link.)

4) If you are going to run only one engine or one lashup, there is no reason to provide power to all of the engines on the track, so use a toggle to shut off that track block.

5) I also have a three rail layout that uses DCS and a Z4000 transformer and Atlas three rail track.  This track gets dirty but operation is only minimally affected.  I think the reason for that is that the current (amperage) density per square inch of the TOP of the Atlas rails, the wheel to rail interface, is lower than the amperage density at the top of the rails of my MicroScale track, and this amperage spread over a wider track top surface area reduces the rail deposits.  (I have no way to determine if the use of AC (vs DC) affects deposits, so cannot comment.)

6) I heard that Delrin wheels cause track and wheels to become dirty more quickly.  As an Engineer, I respect Delrin but you must realize that there are several grades and varieties.  So I am in the middle of a campaign to replace all Delrin wheelsets with steel wheels (two rail).

7) I use several methods to clean rail, the most used is 91% isopropyl alcohol.  I also have a track car and a separate abrasive cleaner used at intervals.  I have used alcohol and Qtips on wheels but the wire brush on a Dremel at low speed is quicker.  I pay more attention to locomotives than to cars...and always check tender pickup wheelsets in addition to driving wheels.

With the above, I have extended the time interval when cleaning track, which I HATE, is required.

I.M.  or NWSL wheels on all cars here.   Not only  cleaner but they roll so much better.   Perhaps less  amp drag on longer trains if amp interface is a factor.

Battery/RC will cure it.  Hang in there.

Roo,

I run short consists and MTH, Atlas O and (a few) Lionel engines conventionally on Atlas O 3-rail, nickel-silver track and use isopropyl alcohol to clean the track (occasionally) and locomotive wheels (very infrequently). For 3-rail, I think traction tires are the biggest contributor to dirty track but, obviously, that doesn't apply to 2-rail. I agree that wheel/rail material and amperage are factors in wear and possibly dirt accumulation, but I think that high humidity (especially in a basement during the summer) tends to cause a film (from airborne dust) to build up on the rails and become discrete pieces of dirt when the trains are run. I think this effect may be worse when the trains are run infrequently. During the summer, I run a dehumidifier continuously in my basement and try to keep the humidity below 60%.

MELGAR

Hudson5432 posted:

There have been many posts about cleaning track, so I do not know if this will add much to the conversation, but here goes.....

Obviously, it is better to not contaminate the track and wheels to begin with!!!

I also run two rail DC, and can operate with conventional DC or the MTH DCS system.  My two rail layout uses code 148 MicroScale Engineering nickel silver track, and I use Bridgewerks two handle 10 amp per side throttles.  My layout has blocks.

I have noticed that the track stays much cleaner if I keep the amperage per throttle below two amps, and there are ways to do this:

1) If you run passenger trains and the cars have incandescent lights and not LED's, turn the lights out to reduce the amperage.  (You can run with lights when operating at night!)

2) Try to minimize operation with smoke units turned on. 

1) I have converted many of my passenger cars now to LED so that I can run in longer consists. They haven't given me any track issues even before this.

2) I run with the smoke on all the time. I constantly read poster's complaints over this smoke issue. I don't have any issues with it here. All my equipment and track is fine.

 I would believe this is more about the house? Not his personally, but maybe more of a dust condition from the climate where he's at? The fact that others here have the same issue confuses that too. I know the plastic wheel thing in HO had me also cleaning track in HO scale, so there must be something to it. I got so used to cleaning that I still run my shirt sleeve on the rails near me once in awhile to check track conditions. I expect dirt and there isn't much there. The NS track will always give off some tarnish but does not require cleaning.

 Because of that experience in my past, I refuse to ever run plastic wheels on any of my layouts. I don't care what type of plastic it is. It rolls good and it's cheap but what's the real cost if you're always having to clean stuff?

 So now I'm thinking maybe he's after perfectly clean rails to make up for poor power pick-up on these engines? I have the same engine with DCS inside and it runs fine without maintenance like he's doing. Here's my stuff as is today:

Maybe the DCS is doing more to keep the draw even than I thought?

From Dick Webster  at Centerline Products:

"The number-one producer of rail & wheel crud is the electrolysis effect of passing current through dissimilar metals. Where our current-drawing locomotive wheels (of one metal) meet the rails (of another metal), a very fine powdery oxide is formed. In "a Perfect World", this oxide would just powder over the edge of the rails and never be a bother to anyone. These days, most of our rails are made from nickel-silver because the oxides of this metal are a bit more conductive than the oxides of brass and, therefore, nickel-silver just seems to stay cleaner longer. You all have probably seen advertisements for locos with nickel-silver wheels and the ads from Northwest Short Lines for replacement/substitute nickel-silver wheels. This is, generally, a very good trend because it puts both rails and wheels of the same metal at the point of current pick-up and minimizes the oxide production. (Nickel-silver wheels on non-power rolling stock don’t really prevent anything, but they’re nice to look at)."

First I would like to thank all the members for their replies.

I have made a bit of a fool of myself as when I started this thread I was halfway into cleaning 20 locomotives for Friday's session when I decided to ask you blokes if you have similar problems. By this time I thought a photo of the dirty wheels might be a good idea when I checked the rest of the locomotives I could not find any with dirty wheels!

So to show you the problem I might have to wait till after Christmas but I am really interested in all your answers and will study them closely.

The photo I am showing you now is the room, the Locomotives I pulled off the tracks to look at, and the Cleaning cradle I use the rest of the locos I have cleaned.

Being a Steel Mill the tracks are everywhere if I clean the wheels before the session we never have a problem we have a problem free and happy day. Roo.

I forgot. I use these for cleaning tracks plus my hand!

Don't get the wrong idea it's not all doom and gloom every session is usually trouble free and we really enjoy the layout I just wish I could eliminate the loco cleaning or maybe even just once a month would make me happy, you can see why I don't have super detailed locomotives.

Please keep the ideas coming I appreciate them. Roo.

Please don't think I am picking on you. I had this problem early on in HO scale, and it resurfaced in G scale at first. What I found was the type of control and boards in the engine, made them more picky about the track. I must sound like a company spokesman. The MTH engines I run don't have this problem. To be fair, the Broadway limited HO engines, and the Atlas gold engines I ran in HO also were much better. I had an E series NYC and a PRR steamer from Broadway LTD that were my favorite to run. Thinking backwards to that time, my track issues were getting better but I was tired of fixing the tiny detailing after going inside my other engines and cars to work on them.

 When I first tried a larger G scale loop, my DCC engine also ran poorly and would stop on any track defect. I acquired a MTH Challenger and a Dash 8 that ran around perfectly without any changes, except for the control unit. So that made my mind up for me to pursue more MTH stuff. My favorite brands in HO did not make any G scale stuff to buy. My first DCC command stuff was too complicated and did not perform well at all.

 So when I went into O scale, the choice was already made. Our grandsons want a HO layout built and I can't help but to follow in the same path if I do it. I realize that DCC has come along way finally. I just don't wish to invest tons of time and money in wrong directions anymore. I'm not wealthy, and can't afford to be a product tester for stuff that requires specialized add-ons.

Joe.

If your referring to me and saying I might think your "picking " on me nothing could be further from my thoughts.

Think of my position. Here in Perth there is really only one large USA O scale layout that is fully operational and that is mine!

I depend on the internet for advice and experience like yours, sure I can go it alone but that takes time and you make mistakes along the way which I have my share of them so there is no problem of me thinking negative thoughts about anyone here.

So tomorrow (Friday) is operation day I have cleaned the loco wheels and some of the tracks and am now staging the layout ready for another great day of train running.

I am going to keep an eye on the locos this time and check which one's get the most dirt on them over the next three weeks as I have converted some to NWSL wheels and some of the locos have the original wheels on them still I'll get back to you on this.

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Roo.  

Well I wish I had your talent and eye for detail. I marvel at your layout and hope to someday get my bare plywood looking better. I hope my RR has a purpose like yours does. I don't want the trains to just run in circles forever.

 When I first built my car and engine yards, I would enjoy switching moves more than anything. I used to run alone. Now that our grandson is getting older, I'm hoping to return to that and have industries to deliver to and pick up from. I had originally envisioned a two level O layout that would have the trains doing more. I changed to include a 3 rail layout high line so we could run the grandson's (and my) 3 rail stuff. 

My AtlasO SW9 is from the first run back in the 90's.  The wheels on those early units had very non-prototypical wheel faces so I replaced them with ones from NWSL.  They improved the look but I found they collected gunk faster than the originals.  I believe this is due to tooling grooves on the wheel treads.  NWSL is under new ownership now - can anyone comment on whether or not recent production NWSL wheels have smooth treads?  

Well.. last Friday we had a very enjoyable day running trains for about 4 hours the rest of the time we spent talking and eating.

This Friday is the last running session before Christmas and I am not going to clean any wheels on the locos in fact until they gather any dirt I won't be cleaning nothing I would like to see how long I actually have to go before another clean.

Have a good Christmas break we will be running trains again on Friday 28th if anyone is in Perth at the time give me a buzz. Roo.

Just thought I would mention I am going to make up jigs or supports and chuck one end in the lathe and the other end in the tailstock and polish all my NWSL wheel sets before I install them in the future.

Nothing to do with cleaning wheels but I have a fleet of Rivarossi 1/43 scale switchers which I toss the cabs and modify with 1/48 Atlas cabs the Rivarossi wheels have to be turned down as the flanges are to deep for my track I had to make a support for the axle in the tailstock for them so why not make them for the above as well.   Roo.

Keystoned Ed posted:

My AtlasO SW9 is from the first run back in the 90's.  The wheels on those early units had very non-prototypical wheel faces so I replaced them with ones from NWSL.  They improved the look but I found they collected gunk faster than the originals.  I believe this is due to tooling grooves on the wheel treads.  NWSL is under new ownership now - can anyone comment on whether or not recent production NWSL wheels have smooth treads?  

Ed I have a number of NWSL wheel sets some I bought recently.

Over Christmas I will get the microscope (I'm not joking I'm serious)  out and check them out because I was wondering the same thing.

A few years back I downloaded some excellent photos from the internet about wheels I don't know where they came from and who was the owner I will copy two photos here maybe someone will know where they came from so I could give the person some thanks and credits .

Don't get mixed up here these are NOT MY PHOTOS or wheels if I knew who posted them I would thank them and give them the credits. Roo.

Roo, that's one heck of a crew in your Merry Christmas picture posted 12/12, however, there seems to be one person that doesn't belong, and I don't mean Santa.

I hope your not talking about the Office lady she is very good keeping everything in order in the admin area.

I've just shown her the roster for keeping locomotive wheels clean and I know she will let me know when there is a problem.

Good staff that's what makes a good Railroad!  Roo. 

Great topic Roo, and lots of good replies! Those NWSL wheel dirt pics are by Bob Sobol from a thread on the A&O forum here:

http://forum.aorailroad.com/t/...r-gear-towers/108/35

I've learned a lot from Bob's postings over the years.  Plus I always get inspired by your layout pics and stories Roo, and it motivates me to work on my layout. Thank you! 

I agree with the comments about NWSL wheels picking up dirt faster than Atlas SW wheels. In fact I have been recently contemplating putting the stock wheels back on my SW9 for that reason. But I will try polishing the NWSL instead. I'm also going to try using Deoxit when I polish them so we'll see if that helps.   

Merry Christmas one and all!

Pete.

Thanks very much for your kind words and thank you for putting me right on who's photos they were somehow over time the text was lost but I had the photos in a folder marked Loco modifications!

Yes Bob Sobol certainly  has spent a lot of time and effort into his postings.

Great stuff. Roo.

Today we had a very enjoyable day running trains and no cleaning wheels next Friday we will be running again and I'm not cleaning wheels the weather has changed in the last week from warm to very hot and dry maybe that has something to do with it we will wait and see. Roo.

After three operating days starting with clean wheels two locomotives had dirty wheels that made them run erratic the other eight we were using did not have a problem so I'm pleased that I got at least three running sessions and who knows maybe more I'm only cleaning wheels when needed at the moment and the other locos seem to be running OK including the Weaver and Atlas with NWSL wheelsets. Should just mention that the weather over here is now summer and hot if that's got something to do with it I don't know.

Nothing to do with dirty wheels just thought I'd snap a photo of the locomotive depot at Republic Steel! Roo.