Somewhat Disappointed!

Hello Tinplate art........

what was the mistake or the problem with your showroom cars ?

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

tiffany,

https://ogrforum.com/d...ent/4949358380128984

 

hello hojack......

thank you, now i understand......... i didn't realize that EACH standard gauge passenger car was 500 dollar each !!!!!!!!! .  I would FORCE them fix it as two of them would have PAID for my 1983 dodge truck i purchased 4 months ago!!!!!!!

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

Art,

I would venture to say that Mike Wolf knows very little if nothing at all of your problem. It would seem that there are others with the same problem. I doubt that yours is a lone mistake originating at the point of origin. There may be others who have spent the same if not higher dollar totals who share your frustration. The person you spoke with is just doing his job. It sounds that you have the feeling that all you received was, "lip service". I doubt that Mike Wolf will take time to contact you. Afterall, that is why he has the staff to handle the day to day business problems such as yours.

Right now is not the ideal time to attempt to settle this matter to your satisfaction. The York meet is at hand. Everyone at MTH has all their attentions focused. Have you thought about addressing the matter one on one with Mike Wolf? Take the time to sit down and compose a letter to his attention. There are times when telephone calls and emails must be put aside.

Hello Art:

 

I have to agree with Pappy on two counts. First, you're likely to NOT receive a response or formal acknowledgment from Mike Wolf - he has folks for that so to speak. The other is that your cars are not the only ones impacted.

 

I'm going to ask the Lionel team at York next week what their name on the product gets us (loyal customers) because some of the issues are limited to being irritating and some are seriously ridiculous. I know they didn't make the trains - that's MTH's responsibility, but when will they jump in and say - "hey - we've got a problem here." Sure they have to know about it first - and I plan on doing my part by explaining a few issues. Case in point -  I have two (2) 400E's - one repaired twice - one repaired three (3) times and one is going back in again... all for a stuck whistle. These are the TRADITIONAL models without the PS-2. Ironically I thought they'd be less trouble. It's a small chip in the tender units that is BAD. Bad engineering, bad product, bad something - because each time I get it back the whistle sticks wide open after running it for 20-30 minutes. The last time I got the one 400E back the ZW (modern) wouldn't trigger the whistle at all - I plugged in the Z-1000 and it did. I have no idea.

 

This is the most frustrating issue for me as these are now out of warranty and now they are costing me money. No ones the bad guy here - I don't believe it's a conspiracy - but I do believe that these things have to get fixed and there needs to be accountability. It's sad to think that there should be a "lemon law" for trains.

 

Sorry for your cars and the disappointment you must have felt. I had a close call with a defective SUPER 381. Had the cars for months - received the train and it was in really bad, bad shape. I had to hunt one down at another dealer - MTH was out - and I already had invested in the cars and add-ons. Spooky position to be in given that you get hand-cuffed because of these split ship dates between engine and cars. So I feel for you.

 

I love this hobby, but I know of no other purchases we make as common folks where we get slapped time and time again, and continue to go back for more. I've been guilty - I admit it - but last year I stopped pre-ordering O-Gauge (non-tinplate) altogether. That's fairly significant for me and I'm sure it impacts my dealer somewhat as well. But if I can't see it first - simply no longer worth the disappointment. 

The simple solution for those who have expectations of these things being absolutely flawless in appearance and operation right out of the box (and I am not implying that this is an unrealistic expectation) is to simply not pre-order items and to wait until you can give the item a hands-on examination at your dealer's shop.

 

The downside there is (1) if not enough pre-orders are received, the item may not be made, and (2) some folks simply do not have access to a local dealer on a regular basis.

 

But if you insist on flawless, that's really the only logical path you can take because any number of things can happen to any given item from point of manufacture through to the time it reaches your hands.  And, of course, you always have the option, with a brand new item, of simply returning it for a refund.  That's what you would do with any other consumer item you buy, so there's no reason why a toy train transaction should be handled any differently.

 

I have and buy a lot of contemporary O gauge tinplate--some 20+ locomotives and a whole lot of rolling stock.  I have had one out-of-box failure (noted some weeks ago on this forum), and I simply sent the item in and had it repaired.  It was a mechanical problem and not a cosmetic one, but if it had been cosmetic I would have returned it to the dealer to exchange for another one, or returned it for a refund if no replacements were available.  There is no toy train made that I cannot live without, if need be.

 

Should there be any "risk" involved in purchasing a toy train?  Probably not, but given the simple fact that problems of one type or another are often reported on this and other forums, I suppose most of us should be accustomed to those things happening from time to time/  It's really up to us to take the necessary precautions to assure it doesn't happen to us.

I fully understand that others have been impacted with the same or similar defects. In the "old school" way of doing things, perhaps there would have been some kind of acknowledgement in the form of a letter, thanking me for being a loyal customer, and appreciating my frustration with a damaged product right out of the box.

 

Our world today is largely impersonal, with corporations out for whatever they can get, and with little or no regard to customer's complaints.

 

Jeff was courteous enough in our conversation and did promise to send me the paint chips when they were available.

 

 

 

 

I have to bite my tongue to keep from saying what I am thinking,

Alan,I'm talking about industry wide problems with quality.  There are just too many $1000 shelf queens out there.  The problems my not be endemic as they were about 5 years ago,but there is not much new product coming out either.

If nothing else,how about a story on what is being done to enhance quality.

Norm

Some here may remember I stirred the pot recently by asking MTH on this forum to answer questions put to them months and years previously. After numerous promises, I posted another question recently to their website question box and got nothing.

I have found I get quick responses from their Facebook page. Whoever the anonymous operator is, does a good job. I also get co-operative responses from Barry, the gent who runs the SHR program.

With few exceptions--tinplate being the primary one--I don't pre-order items

 

I'd really like to know what the production figures are.  Especially for Tinplate, it seems the number would be pretty low.  Even lower still for a really unique item like the showroom cars.  Unfortunatly it seems for tinplate that pre-ordering is the only way to go if you really want something.

I've had four experiences with new tinplate. Two 1988 LTI Hiawathas, the standard gauge Hiawatha, and the Lionel Prewar Celebration Red Comet.

 

Now my first LTI Hiawatha and the standard gauge Hiawatha were fine out of the box. The second Hiawatha had a rough spot on the black. I rationalized this as being OK, if only because I paid $350 or $400 for the set, unrun, in 2005. The only issue with the red comet was that they put the smoke stack on backwards.

 

Whether you have personally experienced this or not, we all know that the issue is out there, and more recently, issues with die cast parts exhibiting the same metal fatigue that early prewar pieces get. This issue, in itself is unacceptable so many years after the original issue was known.

 

The point is that these paint quality issues have been going on for decades with MTH. But, this issue really is a double edged sword.

 

First of all, the new tinplate, while priced well below the cost of a decent original (or in the case of the Brute, and similar products, previously unavailable), is still quite expensive, and therefore, some inherent freedom from defect is expected, especially from adult buyer target audience.

 

Face it, you would not accept a new car with paint or operational defects (as best as you can tell), but, if you were 10 or 12 years old and got a new Blue Comet, State set, or Showroom cars, you would not even see the defects, you'd be ecstatic that you got them.

 

The second is that original tinplate was not perfect by any means. It had some seriously thick runs, crooked lettering, mismatched trim between pieces, etc. But, the difference was that these were toys , and generally not collectors' pieces. Now I know a lot of modern buyers are operators, but the trains reside in the hands of adults, not children, so there is a difference in the way they are viewed and handled.

 

After reading and contributing to this forum for at least three years, I noticed that there is a recurring issue with the quality of MTH tinplate, when it comes to received condition, and some operating complaints (don't know if their regular line has the same issues), all leading to a degree of buyers' remorse with the items.

 

MTH hasn't seemed to adequately address these issues, some of which they have had since the 1980's, and I doubt that the cost of dealing with complaints outweighs the cost savings gained by living with the statistical number of defects they get doing business the way they are.

 

I do not know from personal experience or from reading if there are major issues with the Lionel Prewar Celebration items or the standard gauge Hiawatha/Commodore sets, other than some fidelity issues concerning wheels, etc. Maybe since they are now working together, they could use each other's experience to increase the quality of the delivered product.

 

 

 

 

It's disappointing, but we don't live in a perfect world.

It may be instructive to look at the TCS grading standards.  

C-9 is brand new from the factory.

C-10 is "mint... unblemished"

I think the TCS recognizes that brand new from the factory does not usually mean mint, unblemished.  C-10 is reserved for those few specimens that are better than brand new from the factory.  This would apparently mean that brand new from the factory can be expected to have some blemishes.

 

"...original tinplate was not perfect by any means. It had some seriously thick runs, crooked lettering, mismatched trim between pieces, etc. But, the difference was that these were toys " - jsfro

 

The real difference is that in the 1920's or whenever, most people did not have the very high expectation of perfection that many of us have today.  Of course i have not seen Tinplate Art's paint chips, so I don't know how glaring or minor they are, and so am not in any position to say.  Do your cars fit the description for C-9?  Something to think about, and i don't mean to offend, but wondering if our expectations of absolute perfection might be a little unrealistic?  

Having Flyer prewar tinplate as well as Lionel (not reproductions) that I would certainly consider collectable and operable ( as also an operator) imperfection is an accepted anticipation, hence the grading standards as far as the degree of imperfection. Absolutely perfect is extremely rare, so rare that it's like having a perfect day inasmuch as few items are designed perfectly as we all well know. Perfect execution in a product line..think automobiles ( the "afternoon cars) or dishwashers or DVD players etc. A "one off" is one thing, an entire production run another. You hear satisfaction, and you also hear complaints. If I had your issue, I would take it to a reputable restoration shop and just be done with it, if its just a couple of nicks or chips. If these are now out of stock, that's your only option except carrying another kind of "chip" on your shoulder. Lets face it, the damage is done, time to move on.If so may folks are dissatisfied, strength is in number, do an on line letter get signatures and hand it to Lionel, MTH whomever. Ask them to address an ongoing issue.

Yes, pre-ordering is probably the way to go if you really want a particular tinplate item, UNLESS you are very patient and willing to explore the secondary market some time down the road.

 

My guess is the production numbers for most of these items is quite low...perhaps even very low as in the car of those cars for the Brute.  However, those numbers are generally not made available outside the inner circles of the firm.

What is the "TCS"?

TCA

 

C-10 MINT - Brand New all original, unused and unblemished.
C-9 FACTORY NEW - Brand New all original, unused, may evidence factory rubs and the slightest evidence of handling, shipping and having been test run at the factory.
C-8 LIKE NEW - Complete all original, no rust, no missing parts, may show effects of being on display and/or age, may have been run.
C-7 EXCELLENT - all original minute scratches and paint nicks, no rust and no missing parts. No distortion of component parts.
C-6 VERY GOOD - Minor scratches and paint nicks, minor spots of surface rust, free of dents. May have minor parts replaced.
C-5 GOOD - Sign of play wear with scratches and minor paint loss. Small dents, minor surface rust. Evidence of heavy use.
C-4 FAIR - Scratched, moderate paint loss, dented missing parts, surface rust. Evidence of heavy use.
C-3 POOR - Requires major body repair. Heavily scratched, major rust and missing parts. Restoration candidate.
C-2  - Restoration required.
C-1  - Junk, parts value only.

UPDATE, 4-17-12:

 

Received word Tuesday afternoon that the paint chips for the Showroom cars are on their way! The light and dark green colors are on METAL chips.

 

I will use them to custom-mix enamel for the touch-up work. I have both fine (00000) sable brushes and extra-fine paint applicators.

Trainz has a single car , 11-40020, listed on eBay now for msrp.  Doubt they opened the box and inspected it.

Are these cars actully over 30" long!!!  That's amazing!  Figure I might see one in person at York.  Everything else must look puny in comparison.

I bought an engine the other day.  It worked.  (Well, actually, we had the DCS plugged in incorrectly in the store, so we were almost thinking DOA.  But, it "clicked" on power application, so we looked harder, lol )

 

Point being, of course, who wants to read "it worked" posts all day.  BTW: it was my first new engine, and it is a Rail King Imperial N&W Y6b.  Very cool.  Good value, too.

 

Mike

These "Showroom" cars literally DWARF everything at 30" in length. Running with the Brute, it is a VERY impressive train!

Even on my 84" diameter tinplate curves, there IS some overhang!

"Trainz has a single car , 11-40020, listed on eBay now for msrp.  Doubt they opened the box and inspected it."

 

I just looked at it-if it was a green one, it would probably be headed to my house, right now...

They offered you a refund Art...you refused the refund...what is it you are really looking to achieve here???  I can see where Mike Wolf & Co. think you are happy with touched-up $500 cars.  I think the problem here is you are not really happy.  I am not being contrary, but your posts reflect  changes in how you are thinking about these cars day-to-day!!!.  You accepted these cars because you are afraid of having to do WITHOUT them if you return for cash.  The cars are still gonna be "screwed up", even if Mike treats you to an all expense paid trip to the Bahamas along with that FANTASY LETTER of apology!!!.  These **** cars are gonna wind you up in the hospital.  You made a decision.  For your sanity and health, go with your decision, and move on to the next latest and greatest.  Also, I can see where Allan would be going against his sponsors for this Forum if he started criticizing the quality of the products they pedal.  AND, he certainly could not do this based on HEARSAY on this Forum.  Some of us have UNREALISTIC perceptions of what to expect out of the box.  To some of us, $1000 is a major, major expenditure, and the slightest imperfection rankles us.  To others on here who order one of everything from everyone, that same $1,000 is chump change, and they could care less if Mike sticks a banana around the armature.  Respectfully...Ron B.

Ron,

Your comment sort of got to the point like making a twenty foot leap from standing stock still. I am old enough to remember both the onus attached to "made in Japan" and hanging out at the dime store ogling tin cars. I had saved money from returning my Dad's beer bottles much to his nightly chagrin, ( Wheres the gd beer bottles? )by hauling them in my Radio Flyer up to The Cork and Bottle with determination and knowing I would catch H--l.. The great day arrived I got the friction car home and the **** wheel fell off. My new toy was broke, I had been had taken for a ride, mugged, gypped. It was then for the first time, I realized this was not a perfect world. Funny how some things never change when it comes to toys.

I've said this before. Just go back and read old threads. There are numerous and varied accounts of this same type of product delivery and buyers' remorse with MTH products going back to the LTI Hiawatha.

 

We all should know better that if perfection is what we want, then maybe it's a little too much to expect from MTH.

 

As for Allen Miller's comments of not having seen this with his purchases, then I'd say he's very lucky. I have made four modern tinplate purchases, two made by MTH, and one of those had defects. I can only speak from that perspective.

 

Also, for whatever reason, people develop an affection for a particular brand, be it image, such as Harley Davidson, or sponsorship, as some have alluded to in posts here (I understand that you don't bite the hand that feeds you, if that would be the case).

 

As an example, my brother-in-law rides motorcycles. He will honestly tell you that ALL the Honda motorcycles he's owned over 30 years have given him less combined trouble than any one Harley Davidson he's owned. But if you ask him what the best motorcycles he's owned have been, and he'll answer "the Harleys". I don't get it, but that's how a lot of people think.

 

Remember the expectations that adults have, especially at the price points we are talking about, and the fact that these items are new. There is an expected level of quality, out of the box, for something that costs $500, like a showroom car, especially an adult expectation. If the cars were $75/each, we'd have this discussion, but it would be far less volatile.

 

Now, being an original collector, I own, and  see extremely nice pieces that have runs, globs of paint, etc. I am willing to pay at times what seems like a King's ransom for something that is 80 years old, and has nicks and scuffs, while I would turn down a shiny new reproduction of the same thing for 1/3 the price. It all comes down to what you like, and what your tolerance level is. I find it easier to justify the condition ande expense of originals. They've been around a long time, are used, and the nick and scratch is acceptable. On the other hand, I would not feel that liberal about paying for something defective that is new, fresh out of the box. Others may have different opinions, and that's why we buy what we like.

These flaws are cosmetic in nature and with this new forum it is very easy to post pictures.

 

I want to see photos of these flaws posted right here. If not why should I believe these flaws exist or if Art even owns the cars.

I have a set of the cars and have exactly the same flaws that Art described.  They are a pain to get to, but I will take a photograph when I get them out, next.

 

I will be contacting MTH regarding getting some touch up paint and will let it go at that.  Between MTH and the people at the Train Shack in Burbank, I am very well taken care of, as a customer.

 

I just got a new 400E, a 318 Coal Train, the commemorative set that has the orange and blue 254 and matching cars.  All of those things have been perfect. 

 

The Show Room cars are the only MTH Tinplate products I have gotten in the last 15 years or so, with flaws.

 

While I would prefer that they didn't, I can live with it with a little touch up.

 

Like Art, I would rather have the cars with the slight paint problem, than not have them at all.  It won't bother me every time I look at them.  I hope it does not bother Art.

 

My Brute has developed slight paint damage where the articulated sections touch, at the bottom.  I am still going to run it, even though the paint will degrade in that area, over time.

 

Life is too short.

This is a good perspective. My original American Flyer President Special is scuffed up on the articulated sections. Most 381's are as well. It's part of doing business, and in my opinion, tolerable when considering that you intend to enjoy this engine on the track.

 

I think one issue is that for those that buy these things for display expect, and are within their right to expect blemish free new products, for the money being spent. Hey, if you are like me, you spend the same amount of money on items that come with nicks, scratches and flaws.

 

I'd have to say that on this forum, you have to believe in the integrity of the contributors. I would have no reason to doubt that Art's account of the issue is accurate.

Everyone go to their room (train room of course). Run something for 10 minutes, listen to the clickity clack, smell the ozone, then give us a big smile.

 

Steve

Great advice!

RAK:

 

EXCELLENT advice - I, too, would rather have these cars with minor flaws than none at all. 

 

They are truly magnificant behind the Brute!

 

My Brute operates only on 84" diameter curves, so I have not incurred any operating paint damage on the articulated sections. I did have two slight scratches on the articulated sections right out of the box. Be CAREFUL when moving this loco to service it, as it is a "wiggle worm"! 

 

At 69, with kidney failure and two heart stents, I am living on "borrowed" time, and I really can't afford to "sweat the small stuff"! 

Soooo...no paint problems with the COAL TRAIN???  And I guess the "paint" is ok on the zinc chromate Showroom Cars???

I had intended to order the new standard gauge nickel-trim Blue Comet "Barnard" car but decided not to do so after the paint issues with the Showroom Cars.

 

Will the loss of one sale make a difference - probably not, but that is the way it is! 

I got a question for everyone...

 

 

If you were Mike Wolf, and KNEW that EVERY Showroom Car was painted badly, would YOU recall, strip, respray, and return at NO COST to your loyal customers OR get them to touch up their own cars???  And keep in mind these $500 cars probably cost you at least $100 to manufacture!!!

Ron:

 

As you probably know, the cost of stripping and repainting these cars would be economically prohibitive! 

 

They would have to be SCRAPPED and completely re-done, and that would probably be at a loss, even at Chinese labor prices!

 

Rectifying the paint issues would be much less cost-efficient than AVOIDING these mistakes in the first place! 

 

NOTE: I did ask Jeff Strank to personally make Mike aware of the tacky paint/styrofoam issue with the Showroom cars.