Strollers in the halls

Sounds good. See you this fall with my new machine! Comin' in  Hot!

I am certain this will be welcome news for some.

Imagine, diaper bag, and lots of STORAGE for those finds you discover

My going to York is a non-issue as I live on the opposite side of the country and am not into 3-rail, but the stroller decision is great news in general anyway. These strollers keep getting bigger and bigger and we all know how the owners act when they're pushing their 'snowplows' through crowds. Heck, I know a guy who doesn't even have a kid and he puts his Yorkie pup in one and uses it at gun shows like a shopping cart and a way to get people to move aside.

Some gun shows I go to have aisles just wide enough for one of these big strollers. At one a few months ago. a stroller was crushing against the tables on each side. Nobody could stay in the aisle with that coming by. It came to head when an older guy just stood there very defiantly and said, "I'm not getting out of the way, because you don't get to have the entire aisle to yourself with that plastic SUV of yours!"

I think it's just another piece of the, "I'm special and here's why" mentality people have anymore, where they have to have something you now have to move around. Any venue that bans them gets my approval any day of the week.

They allow cell phones and the world will stop rotating...wait, never mind.

They allow photography and gravity will cease to exist..sorry, my bad.

They allow strollers and the sun will go out...TBD 

Jerry

Well, since it takes me half at day to race through all the halls, missing something, I

am sure, I want to use a Segway, and, if that is not fast enough, an ATV.  This must

be predicated on their doubling the width of all the aisles, and opening up for tables

every chicken coop (the stables?) on the fairgrounds to provide for that?

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll be certain to bring extra Band-Aids for my Achilles tendons! Love children, hate getting whacked by strollers. The stroller rule was one that I was 150% OK with.

Since York went to three days people with strollers should have no problem navigating the Orange Hall, see the layouts, etc.  Now the Red, Blue and Silver...those isles are not for strollers...heck two people barely fit the width of an isle.  And if you really want to race around, hit the Orange on a Saturday.  You can run through with it and not hit too many people.  BigRail

Segway? ATV? I vote for this instead, 

No problem!!!.....

And therein lies the problem with shows, overall. By trying to fit as much as possible into a hall, the aisles are often made comically narrow. I saw a gun show a few months ago where the aisles were so tight, two guys on opposite sides of an aisle were able to pass a pen back and forth without having to throw it or move from behind their sales tables!

I remember hitting the Timonium MD show in 1998 (the last time I was in the area when it was going on) and found the aisles to be very wide, so much so that a family of 4 could probably have walked line abreast and people could still have gotten around them. I've never seen aisles that wide at any show since.

I am against it.  Walking the aisles is tough enough.  I would not want to be the person who made that decision.  Wrong on all counts.  When the child reaches out and pulls something valuable to the floor, who is going to eat that loss?  The halls are tough enough to get through.  

I wish they would't let them in, some are so large I really question the room for them. If used, do they have to have a child in them or can we just use baskets on wheels for gathering our bargins. It seems that some of the scooters have gotten so large that they are closer to golf carts and ATV's. Some of the users have little or no consideration for us walking slugs. They bump into you, refuse to not block the isles, go the wrong direction. I will probably feel different when I can't walk the lanes.

Buzz 

I think kids in strollers are better then the power chairs people use to get around. Most of them are too large and too many of them don't look out for other people. 

I would like to see some kids at the show instead of the place looking like God's waiting room.

 We don't have kids, but if we did, York is the last place we would bring them--at least until they're older and only if they have an interest in trains.  There are plenty of other places to bring a kid in a stroller where he/she can see trains, and for that matter, more interesting places too. I'm pretty sure little kids would rather see trains in action, not row after row of them laying out for sale on tables. I agree--bad call on allowing strollers.

Bluecomet, thanks for the support.  I figured I would get hate mail but I say what I feel.  This is only going to go VERY bad if they do this.  

 The ADA(Americans with Disabilities Act) comes in at some point on this subject. The venue has to provide aisle wide enough for wheel chairs, scooters, and other mobility aids. If the aisle are to narrow the fire inspector should could become involved.

  I have seen this problem at gun shows, and craft shows and think the solution is a minimum aisle size and only allow "small" strollers. Use common sense. Many parents can't attend an event without bringing a child or two. Single parents with no baby sitter for example.

Douglas 

Although I agree about watching out for scars on the achilles, I think allowing strollers is a good idea.  It will encourage parents in their 30's to attend a train meet.  I.e., allowing strollers isn't being done to recruit kids in strollers, it's being done to recruit their 20- and 30- and 40-something parents whom we need to keep this thing going.  

That said, please write me offline if you want my thoughts on what to do to some oblivious dingbat who runs over your achilles heel with a stroller...

Steven J. Serenska, who brought his oldest daughter at the ripe old age of 9 days to a NETCA meet, in 1990.

I want to chime in, because I wrote an email to EDTCA some time ago asking for a rule change to allow single width strollers and I believe this may have been the impetus for the rule change.  I understand others may differ, but it is not my intention to argue with people on the internet but simply to set forth why I asked for the rule change.

First, I enjoy O gauge trains, my wife supports the hobby, and we have two boys (4 and 6) who also really enjoy trains.  My wife and I are of the view that children must be well behaved and must understand that they cannot just grab things that aren't theirs.  Moreover, while we think our kids are cute, I don't expect you to think they are cute.  So we aren't raising brats.  That being said, I've gone to York for a long time, and we like to make it a family event. So how does one do a family meet at York with little kids without a stroller?  We can't stay together in the halls (wife watches kids, kids don't go, etc) or we have to keep them under control in the halls.  With a single width stroller (we use a dual stroller that is no wider than a single width stroller), you can keep the kids in the stroller, under control.  They can see the trains, we can keep them in check and out of people's way.  In this manner, strollers are certainly no worse than the power chairs that have become quite common and in many instances, are far less of an obstacle than the chairs.

Second, the demographic of the hobby is aging.  We have many conversations here about attracting the young people into the hobby.  We also talk about this being a great family hobby.  And yet we had a rule that makes it pretty clear that families and children don't belong at York  I accept that York isn't the penultimate train show for kids -- an operating show would be better -- but it is something I attended as a kid and that probably led me to stay with the hobby because it is such a train spectacle.  It still blows my mind today after so many years.  My boys really love going as well.  Point is that if you want to talk about bringing young people into the hobby and into TCA, and if you want to talk about trains being a family hobby, there is at least some inconsistency in having a rule that makes it impracticable for young families to attend. Moreover, by effectively excluding kids, you are excluding their 30-40 year old parents as well -- again, driving people away who I would think you would want to try to involve in TCA and the hobby generally.

Finally, I hear the complaints about stroller width, ankles, etc.  I understand the concern.  But the problem with these issues, with all respect, isn't strollers per se but it is inconsiderate people.  I've run into people at York who go down the aisles the wrong way, people in power chairs who block the aisles completely, people driving too fast in the lots, etc.  I also run into jerks in jogging strollers that are the width of a Smart car.  I get it.  From the perspective of stopping rude behavior, however, the answer there is to have the hall personnel rectify these situations, not just exclude whole classes of people.  That is not the way to grow the show, the TCA, or the hobby generally.  I understand that there may be a segment of TCA, perhaps older and either with grown kids or perhaps without kids, who simply don't want to be bothered, but with all respect if TCA doesn't branch out and get younger people involved in the show, the organization, and the hobby, TCA is going to die out in the next 10-20 years.  Accepting strollers at York is a small but meaningful commonsense measure that will encourage families and children to attend the show. 

Yeah, but I hate it even more when I get whacked by on of those deluxe oversized scooters that they call wheelchairs.  They are the real hazard!

So the same applies to the Elderly man who must touch, feel and ultimately drop the $2000 piece???  Really?

Ultimately the point is to either allow both strollers and scooter, with appropriately sized aisles, or allow NEITHER. 

Thank you Eastern Division for moving forward with this.  FINALLY!

Gpriych, I am all for a person who is disabled to have a scooter.  If they are short on funds, I will help them out.  I always thought some sort of card was needed to rent a scooter showing disability.  I was wrong.  I see many people who are just fat renting them and getting out of them and going for a walk.  We have all seen this.

I have nothing against youngsters in a stroller as long as the pusher of said stroller keeps it off the back of my feet.  I feel Eastern division is making a mistake.  Everyone wonders how long York will last.  Lets re-visit this situation after York.

BTW, I have never heard of anyone elderly person dropping any 2,000 item.

  I have attended 70 York shows and feel I would have heard about a situation like that if it were to exist.  I have always been a huge supporter of Eastern Division.

I would not be against allowing strollers to be used at York.  As others noted, it allows members w/ young family members to attend the meet.  I would think that if they attended on the much less crowded Saturday, they would have much more ease at moving through the meet, especially the orange hall.

As for complaints of strollers being pushed upon your heels, I will add that while at train shows or public events, I've been hit at least 5 times as much by someone in either a powered scooter/jazzy chair, wheelchair, or walker than by someone pushing a stroller.  Either item requires attention and consideration of those around by the person using their stroller or aid.  To those who say that they don't want to have to worry about falling into a stroller, the same is true for the person in a wheelchair; you also don't want to fall or trip into them.  It may sound easier said than done, but a responsible parent pushing a stroller should be constantly aware of his/her surroundings.  While looking at tables the stroller parent must also be on the lookout for any person walking/talking/chewing gum who's not paying much attention to those around themselves.  Also, just like a parent w/ a walking child who might experience a tantrum or meltdown, the responsible parent should take the time needed to calm the child and also be prepared to take a timeout outside the hall so as not to disrupt others.

I hope stroller use is successful and without incident, but as mentioned, it all boils down to how courteous is the parent and those attending the meet.

Long time York attendees may remember that in the past strollers were allowed in the halls.
The first time I brought my family along, including our young son, Strollers were allowed. However, in our judgment, bringing our stroller into those crowded halls would be both unpleasant for the child, and dangerous. And I did witness one fellow fall over a stroller in one of the halls. Unlike mobility scooters, some of the strollers of the day were rather low to the ground, and easy to miss.
I think we did bring the stroller into a hall or two very late in the day, when the crowds were quite thin.

Now that strollers are allowed again, I hope everybody will use good judgment.

Enjoy the show. 

That is they key - good judgement.

I have been rear-ended by strollers at local shows pushed by people preoccupied by what they were looking at on the tables or what was on their cell phones or some other distraction.  It is not pleasant, and potentially dangerous to the child.

I think that the average TCA member has better judgement in this matter than the looky-loos at the local shows.  I hope I am not proven wrong.

Andy

For starters, it's nice to see a civil discussion of a contentious topic - thanks to everyone, at least so far.

Both sides have valid points - York should be as family-friendly as possible, but counting on people using good judgement is dicey, and there is a substantial risk for accidents.  

On balance, I think it will not go well, but I'm willing to give it a try.

Very little has been mentioned about a possible simple solution - make the aisles wider.  At recent meets, there has been a surplus of tables in several of the halls, and some have speculated that the Brown hall might be closed in the near future.  Why not eliminate one row of tables from each hall?  This might cause a handful of people in the blue and silver halls to move to red or white, but I think it would serve the greater good.   

Mallard's point is exactly the one I was making...open some other buildings and widen

the aisles....!! Most of us could stand that even if chairs and strollers, suitcases,

backpacks, etc. were disallowed.

there are federal laws regarding those with disabilitys  having access to public buildings and events. what your proposing is both wrong and illegal regarding  a disabled person from using a 'scooter'

btw, bad call on the eastern division allowing strollers,plenty of public shows[worlds greatest hobby shows come to mind ] for the 'family' to attend. -Jim

Marty:

Sorry, I can't let this one lie.  

I indeed saw this firsthand, although it wasn't a single $2,000 item that was dropped, it was a shelf full of items adding up to $2,000 or more.

I was sitting in my booth at York in the Orange Hall watching a guy in a scooter alternately pulling nose-in to a booth/table, looking things over, then backing up without looking, etc.  He wasn't watching anything other than what he was interested in.

At one point, he backed up and the top of his scooter chair (where there was something like a bicycle basket) hooked underneath a shelf full of trains in the next guy's booth from mine.  

Many of us, including me, started shouting "STOP! STOP! STOP! PLEASE!  SIR!  YOU'RE HOOKED! YOU'RE GOING TO PULL IT OVER!".  The guy looked around, trying to figure out why he had stopped, and why people were yelling at him and, then, in a clear "eff it" move, he zoomed forward taking the vendor's entire shelf full of trains with him.

Many of us moaned and groaned out loud and began helping the poor seller set up his shelf, picking up and placing the trains where he had had them.

It's worth noting that the boor who did all the damage 1) did not apologize, and 2) did not even wait around for the cleanup to be complete.

So, yes, it does happen.  Adults do drop or push over trains.

**** pause ****

However, did this happen because he was elderly or because he was on a scooter?  I think it didn't.  I think it happened because he was completely oblivious to anyone other than himself and, having observed his behavior after he knocked everything over, I think it's likely his was a life-long condition of inconsideration of others and obliviousness in general.

There are old boors on scooters and young boors pushing strollers.  The combination of being on the lookout for trains and piloting a less-than-navigable mechanical device in a cramped space adds up to a minor (and sometimes major) annoyance for the rest of us.

I personally tolerate both because, in the first case, I say to myself, it's good that the old guy still gets out there ... and I'm about the last guy who would take that away from anybody.  On the flip side, I am ecstatic to tolerate strollers, because it means that a young father is following in my footsteps and hopefully introducing the hobby to the boys and girls riding in the stroller.

This post is going on too long, but I'll finish by saying I'm interested in hearing others' ideas/suggestions concerning how we might, as a group, politely request people pushing or riding on these conveyances be a little more alert to their surroundings and fellow collectors.

Hoping this is all food for thought,

Steven J. Serenska

Why would anyone want to bring a stroller into the halls in the first place? 

One Small thing. I believe the stroller should be used for a child. Not just a shopping cart for trains.

quote:

This post is going on too long, but I'll finish by saying I'm interested in hearing others' ideas/suggestions concerning how we might, as a group, politely request people pushing or riding on these conveyances be a little more alert to their surroundings and fellow collectors.

IMHO, sometimes rules are made when people show themselves unable to use good judgment or have consideration for others. If allowing strollers turns out to be problematic, then I'd guess the Eastern Division will reinstate the ban. At least they will have tried.

So far, lifting the ban on cell phone use and partially lifting the ban on photography has not created any serious problems. Hopefully lifting the stroller ban will have the same results.

I've never been to the York show. What was the reason for banning cells and cameras? I'd imagine there would plenty to take photos of and banning the use of cell phones in this day and age seems to be a completely unrealistic goal (which I assume is why it was lifted?).

Reminds me a monthly gun show they have near me. Everyone would be asked if they have loaded firearms, then asked if they have a camera. One time I couldn't ignore the silliness of the second question and I said quite loud, "Well of course I have a camera, and so does anyone walking in here with the cell!" The security guards just froze dead in their tracks. I couldn't believe it, but that had obviously never occurred to any of them!

quote:

What was the reason for banning cells and cameras?

Whatever the reason, there is no purpose served by revisiting these obsolete issues.

So relieved to read that - I was thinking that the strollers (and diaper bags) were for the elderly adults.....

THIS IS WHAT MANY FEAR ABOUT CHANGING ANYTHING

I seem to recall that some of the very arguments against phones and cameras, blocking aisles, not paying attention and walking into people or displays are some of the same being made about the stroller issue and they apparently either haven't come to pass or are minimal at best. Let's just take a wait and see attitude and stop with the what if this, that and the other thing all happen at the same time.

Jerry

Hey, mwb...it was probably a diaper accident that distracted the perp who wiped out

that shelf of trains....

I wouldn't worry too much about this at our level.  There are only a few things that could happen and not all of them are bad:

1) The few people that really want to bring strollers will and it will either work or it won't.  If it doesn't I am sure the ED can change the rules back.

2) Thousands of extra people show up who have always wanted to bring strollers but couldn't.  Yeah...the TCA is saved!

3)  No one brings strollers and nothing changes.

In the whole scheme of things I am more worried about declining attendance and membership than strollers at a meet.  BigRail

Seriously?  That's insane!

     I know this is off the topic of strollers. Most of my life I have been able to walk but for the past almost 5 years I have been in A wheelchair. I have been run down 2 times by cars that have waved me across an intersection and then ran me over. Another time I was crossing a parking lot and had a young kid that had tinted windows back over me in the wheelchair looked out his drivers side window that was down he realized he ran me over and laid tire to get away. The last time I was changing A flat tire in the pouring down rain on the parkway and someone in A blue car laid on his horn and swerved at me and I put u my hand as A reflex and hit my hand off his passenger side mirror and folding back my pinky finger on the wrong side of the palm of my hand. I had to unbend my finger to get the work glove off my hand to get the glove off when I finished changing the tire. Manny times when I try to open doors to go inside A building as I open the door men will walk around me to get into the building and not as much of A thank you for opening the door. I can see A child or A woman going in front of me but A perfectly healthy man doing it really PMO. Being in line to buy things at A store people will just walk in front of you like as if you don't even exist. It knocks you down A few pegs in life when you used to be able to get around fine and then the next day you cant walk anymore. I was brought up to be respectful of other people but it is very hard when people keep on disrespecting you but 2 wrongs don't make A right. I do my best to not run over any ones toes with my wheelchair but sometimes it gets very frustrating when people walk in front of you and just stand there for 7 or 10 minutes looking at something and you have to weight until they are through because you cant get by because of other people coming the other way. I am sorry for spewing off about this subject but I just wanted everyone to understand the point of view from someone who is disabled. Thank you for your time and take care. Choo Choo Kenny P.S. Quit parking in handicapped spaces if you don't need them it can be A $300.00 to $500.00 fine if you get caught depending on where you live.

No, this was not a serious threat when smoke signals and Morse code telegrams were the only Eastern Division-sanctioned means of communications on the York Fairgrounds.

Of course there were some RV fires. 

George

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I, for one, are in favor of strollers because it means that we are allowing young folks with kids to come, enjoy the show, buy something, and get interested in our hobby. We are constantly talking about getting more young people into our hobby and allowing strollers is one way to help attain that goal.

As far as the isles being too narrow, I hope the Fire Marshall is involved to assure that a minimum aisle width is maintained at all times.  In case of emergency the aisles must be wide enough to assure that everyone walking through the exhibition halls can get safely to a fire exit without getting caught up in aisles that are too cluttered and narrow.

I think strollers are good idea, too.  And with the aging of the boomers and reduction in vendors appearing at the meet (think Purple Hall with the loss of Barry's or Brown Hall with 1-2 less vendors), the widening of the aisles shouldn't be a problem.

George

Kenny, I'd imagine everyone here knows someone disabled.

I would counter your well-explained points by saying that:

1. There are jerks of every kind who simply don't care about anything outside their own skin, including some in wheelchairs
2. There are people in those 'scooters' who have no issue other than keeping the [bleep]ing spoon out of their mouths
3. Too many people are relying on 'carts' of various types these days, when in the past they wouldn't have had them
4. There are people who feel it's everyone else's job in life to deal around them personally, and never the other way around
5. And some of the people in # 4 are in wheelchairs

Now, all that said, there are also jerks who would kick a cane out of someone's hand just for laughs. The people who almost ran you down are like that, too.

But self-centered behavior goes each way. That's where the PC types fail in their arguments because, again, there are jerks both in and out of wheelchairs.

I am all for a disabled person who needs a scooter to get whatever he/she may need to do the show.  I am not for the person who is overweight and not disabled who rents a scooter.  We have all seen this.  I know the people who rent them are chasing the buck.  It would be so wrong if a real disabled person needed a scooter and they were all out already rented to some who are fat and not disabled.

The scooter rental for persons who need them is a good program.  

Strollers in the halls ?

Lots of comment on this subject.  I can not help but wonder how many people posting on this have ever been to York.  Of course, everyone has an opinion and wants/likes to be heard

and should be.   York is a place you have to be at to understand the comments and concerns.  I have always been impressed with the quality of the EMT people who are present at York.  Having been a Police EMT back in my younger days, I always converse with some of these great people about the training they receive today.  

Since I have years of experience running through various types of flea markets, I'd

prefer not dancing through a minefield of strollers and aisle-wide wheelchairs centered

to impede all passage.  (not to mention the family reunions of gabbers grouped at the

crossroads of aisles to most effectively block any progress)  The solution, but maybe 

not the cheapest...rent on buildings?...would be to widen the aisles so at least two of

those wheelchairs could pass, and the ambulatory could pass a wheelchair or a stroller.

I know what I am looking for, and could get through any building rapidly, if it wasn't

an obstacle course.

It was at Timonium several years ago when on received two ripped socks and bloody flaps gouged into both of my Achilles tendons. Two separate strollers and not so much as an "excuse me" from either. I will keep my mouth shut from this point forward. If I get whacked at York in Oct, I will communicate my position to TCA ED. For now, I'm just just looking forward to October. 

For the best part, most folk in wheelchairs need them, meaning they are wheelchair bound, scooters on the other hand are NOT disable devices....they are mobility aids, most folk use them for the mall and shopping etc, not useable in the home.....unlike a wheelchair. If heavy or able people want to use a scooter (at York) I think a better solution would be rent a wheelchair and must be accompanied with a attendent to push them around. Safer for everyone......and will sort a few of the 'culprit's out!

Must end by saying the camera thingy baffles me......

quote:

(not to mention the family reunions of gabbers grouped at the

crossroads of aisles to most effectively block any progress)  The solution, but maybe 

not the cheapest...rent on buildings?...would be to widen the aisles so at least two of

those wheelchairs could pass, and the ambulatory could pass a wheelchair or a stroller.

Not just a Train Show phenomena, any place there are walking isles, groups will expand to block the entire isle, occasionally stopping to have a chat. Wider isles would help, but not eliminate the problem.  

I wonder how it's going to work getting the strollers on and off the shuttle buses?

I hadn't seen the rule or lack thereof concerning strollers (my daughter is too big for one at nine years old, and has school on Thursday and Friday anyway), partly because it doesn't really apply to me. I also don't know what the rules are regarding smoking on the fairgrounds for the same reason. But I do hope that the rule says that if you have a stroller, there must be a child and an adult with it.

Regardless, I cannot picture a scenario where a stroller is going to make me have less than a great time while I am there. Remember all the flack about backpacks last year? I don't remember seeing one there, though I'm sure there were. I remember seeing a lot of trains, a lot of friends, and a bit of food, but no backpacks (or cell phones, cameras, walkie talkies, or any other "show stoppers").

J White

First, let me say that I am not hostile to wheel chairs....my brother had to use one, and

at my age, I might land in one way too soon, and have twice for surgeries.  Wider aisles would help.

I do cringe when people say they go to York to socialize and not for the

trains, for I immediately think:  "Oh, so YOU are the one blocking the aisle intersections!"  So far, I have managed to suppress the desire, when encountering the conference being held in the traffic lanes, to yell, at the top of my voice, "Move your a****!", or "Get a room!"

(Of course, only a few read our complaints here, and any it will apply to, don't think it

does)

On the return trip from my recent Great Northwest adventure, I stop in Ohio to visit my one remaining aunt, she has two knee replacements and recently fell and broke an arm. Well again, and on the mend, I did breakfast with her last Sunday morning, she has a walker.  I also have a walker from hip replacement, seven years ago, a humbling experience.  It's just a matter of time, all will experience some difficulty. We need to respect our aging process.

" I also have a walker from hip replacement, seven years ago, a humbling experience"

Mike, it however sure made you feel better. I should know. 

^^^ This is why the aisles need to be wider.

One of my favorite sound bites came at lunch before York - one of the people at the next table described the person who blocks an aisle as a "human cork".

And sorry to be anal about it, but it's "aisle", not "isle".  Thanks to those literate folks who get it right.

About mobility aids...I sometimes use a cane and used to have to use it even to get from the car to the shopping cart corral at the store. Chairs, walkers and canes belong with the person using them and should be considered part of their body. If you wouldn't shove the person out of the way to look at something, don't shove the chair, walker or cane. The same goes for kicking or shoving a kid in a stroller. 

In the same line, if you use anything to move around, you're responsible for where it goes, just as you would be were you fully able and bumping into people with your feet. I can't recall being hit by a regular wheelchair user, but I've been knocked down by people on the store's scooters. I'll be charitable and assume they were unfamiliar with the controls.

We backpacked our son in crowded areas. He was less likely to grab anything and could see a lot more from that vantage point. Twenty-five years ago, there were fewer people perpetually on phones, walking fast with their heads down, but people still ran into or over the stroller. They also ran into my back and knocked me forward, which pushed the stroller into things. 

I understand that tables are money and space at shows isn't cheap, but there are always out of the way pockets where a few well-placed folding chairs could give people the hint to stop and talk there, not in the aisles. Narrow aisles and no stopping places don't lend themselves to good traffic flow. Also, providing a sitting spot might encourage some to walk and not use a power chair. If I know I can sit when need be, I'll leave my cane in the car.

A great teacher of mine once gave the following lesson on the difference:

An aisle is where you will find people walking, while an isle is where you will find Gilligan (or better yet, Ginger and Mary Ann).

Andy

quote:

Thanks to those literate folks who get it right.

Do you feel superior and important now?

Who the heck are you to judge other people's literacy?

This is a chat board, not a legal or professional document.
Nor is it a work of literature.

quote:

I, for one, am tired of people who don't know the difference between "loose" and "lose", and it bugs the heck out of me.

Don't forget to, too, and two.

Posting a correction is one thing. Implying that other posters are illiterate is something else.

Feel free to block my posts, and those of other people who make grammatical and spelling errors. You are likely to see much fewer posts.

........and its colour not color! 

flavour, labour, neighbour....

centre, fibre, litre....

Ohh!.........did I mention humour 

If someone is being a jerk with a scooter etc, take a picture/vid, oh wait a minute!!!

quote:

Mis-spelling a word like "Mississippi" is one thing.  Using the wrong word entirely is quite another

Long ago I learned that there are many people with interesting thoughts who are not very good at spelling, grammar, or proper word use. Some of them are very highly skilled in other areas, and are very willing to share their knowledge.

To call people out for their shortcomings in writing on a toy train chat board is just plain rude, and mean spirited.

Just a bit of fun mate, didn't mean to step on anyone's toes, (in keeping with the theme of the thread!).  

Is this the thread for old men on menopause?  

People that incorrectly insert a hyphen into the word "misspelling" make me so angry!!!!!!

New Jersey requires a doctor's note for handicapped ID or plates and has changed the placard to have an expiration date. Your also supposed to be carrying the "disabled persons card" they give you which while it doesn't have a photo does have your name.

A college I taught at in NJ wouldn't accept the state tag but required you go to security with all the ID and get a college issued card to park in the handicapped spots--stopped them from using Mom's tag.

Scotie

(??? I love kids, worked at "thee kids pizza place" for many years, and cleaned 100's of epic messes, no issue. It just started "coming up" one day)

  *That's where the kid in the stroller should be...a ball pit 

That depends.Will the needs of the many suffocate the few?

Will the needs of a few just mildly inconvenience the many?

Mike CT has a good point below.

Originally Posted by Mike CT: It's just a matter of time, all will experience some difficulty. We need to respect our aging process.

 Unless you're looking forward to "Carousel", a la' "Logan's Run", that's good advice.  

Easy enough to fix. You're welcome.

 My dyslexic Mother focused more on manners, than my writing correctly. 

 With some effort, you can even be mean and nice, both at the same time.

Originally Posted by Becky, Tom & Gabe Morgan:

 There are some well thought out statements here.

I use handicap on occasion. Legally. I will normally pass them if busy and I can get close.   "Close enough" is fine, just to help ChChK out if he's behind me.

I also look fit and able, so don't be quick to be parking judge. I'm not supposed to walk but do.

***Giving some extra space around that area IS NECESSARY for us to begin movement without frog spearing ankles. Often , gaps are filled by shoes before we can react. 

 I had to give up daily driving quite a few years ago, and spent a lot of time pedaling, on scooters, or walking, while recovering from the initial diaphragm injury (did it again, only worse).

  While being "out" was great, I would normally have at least one close call every single day just crossing at a few crosswalks.

  ChooChooKenny has confirmed it, I'm not alone.

"The many" are rude idiots that assume whatever they get away with in their little "its all about me lives" is OK. Its not about rules, or law, for them, it's about "get er done" and "only illegal when your caught".

  People walking or riding again after years behind the wheel, you best watch out for drivers in a hurry. The majority under 40, honestly think they have right of way at all times in a car. And even those that know better, are likely giving you the Jersey Salute below the door line, as they mouth sorry, but continue to push through!

 Ummm..... You same folks walk the same way too .

Its an international forum.

He is also more correct if we follow old protocol, and avoided deviations from it, as you insist we should.

  Had others followed "the rules" in the past, you would be spelling it just like that.

 And some of us who don't care as much, hate being "graded" on it.

Just make the correction, then move on.

You may even get a thank you that way.

You can't easily stop evolution. Language evolves, and you've recognized its happened before to English...

 So I'm at a loss as to how to convey how much the correction annoys others, as deeply as the mistake bothers you folks.

 I can only say spell check is likely responsible for you missing how trivial the rest of the world actually finds this during social commentaries.

 If this was intended to be instructional, I might agree. But it's not. 

 Sometimes a spell checker is responsible for goofing a fix, worse than the first error, and done by the "app." after human review, during submitting.

(I'm curious if you use one too, as that would be hypocritical in my eyes) 

  I'd prefer an untrained poets pen, without the blanket of grammar being used to smother its truths.

  Where thoughts dance in fields that grow wild without the fencing of spelling casting shadows across green opportunities of the white pulp wood. 

 If I'm alone, I shop in isles.

being handicapped is totally different than a stroller,,,,,yes we need to attract young people but if they need a stroller ,then I believe they are too young,,to attend,i wouldn't want my  child in that mad mass of people,,,i can see it now ,,,I can hear the lady on the mic,,,,traffic jam in the blue hall,,,,will you please move either the stroller or the scooter now !!!!!

I would think the Eastern Division would now be open to a lawsuit if a child got seriously hurt, especially since "no strollers" was in place in the past. I had the displeasure of being hit twice at train shows by strollers. At the very least, they should be kept out of the red, white, silver and blue halls.

Personally, the most egregious aren't those folks with strollers, scooters, wheelchairs, or cans but rather the obnoxious, self indulgent York-goers who choose to congregate mid aisle or at aisle intersections to socialize. That's inexcusable, be considerate socialize outside the halls or in the lobbies of halls that have them.

Yes! By all means, let's create yet another costly incompetent federal bureaucracy who's sole charge is to police and prosecute offenders that unlawfully park a vehicle in one of the many hundreds of thousands of empty handicap parking spaces.

None of the above.  Our ability to use language is what separates us from other life forms on this planet.  The accurate use of language allows us to communicate clearly.  It's inconsiderate to repeatedly misspell or misuse a common word.  It takes only a few seconds to review something before posting it, and the computer will even do it for you if asked. 

I've seen items written by college graduates that the nuns would have handed back to me in 6th grade, and I'm thankful for what they taught me.

OMG Please stop it already! This thread is starting to make me sick. How old are we that some people are more concerned about spelling, handicap parking and handicap people trying to buy some trains. Lets all grow up and realize that some day you may be that person who need a little advantage getting in and out of a car or a person who is having problems walking. Give it a rest and lets talk about why we are here on the forum, LETS TALK TRAINS.  

I agree with Rich. Stop it. This a forum to talk trains and have some fun. As I have aged my typing and spelling (even with spell check) have gotten worse. I just don't see as good as I once did and my hands are not as steady so mistakes happen. I also resent the grammar and spelling police pointing out every mistake. 

I believe there are too many people here who think their only job is to point out wrongs (according to you) wheather it's parking spaces, strollers or spelling. So as maint (Rich) has said "stop it" let's talk trains. 

In the spirit of agreement, I've removed my prior posts related to handicapped parking.

I apologize if I offended you, that certainly was not my intension. However, you have found it appropriate to make some assumptions. I have owned a 175-space parking lot and have witness first hand the abuse of reserved handicap parking spaces. The state of Minnesota mandates no less than 2% of available parking be reserved handicap parking. We had six spaces, 50% more than required. The view from my office window overlooked these six parking spaces. I can't count the many times I saw people park in one of these reserved spaces and then hop-scotch on their merry way to the front door. I finally realized that no amount of policing would alter the behavior of these inconsiderate souls. Practitioners of this parking abuse do so knowingly and willingly. Unfortunately, it's doubtful that any legal actions or otherwise will discourage them. They harbor no shame.

Both my parents had achieved handicapped parking permits during their ending years. I too was in-ambulant for nearly two years and at times still have moderate difficulties. Let me assure that I maintain a strong appreciation and healthy respect for anything that aids those that are in need. Be it close parking spaces, automatic doors, ramps, walkers, wheelchairs, scooters, or whatever one can think of. My wish is that others would too. What I don't wish for is a bureaucracy beyond what's already in place to enforce something that's ultimately unenforceable.

Well, getting away from the issues of handicap parking spaces and such, I think this is a good idea. Ihave not been to york for many years, however I now have two small children as well as my 9 yr old. I can't go anywhere for long without a stroller as I only have so many hands and my back can only take so much.  I like to think of myself as a responsible parent and wouldn't put my children in a position where they could knock things down or grab something, if they did I would have to pay for it, in the condition it was before said grabbing occurred.  

One of the things that comes to mind is the continous lamenting that this is an old man's hobby.  Well maybe a change like this will lead some folks see that younger people are interested.  (And by that I mean the people pushing the strollers, not riding in them.)   Now again being a responsible parent I would not try to bring my stroller during the busiest times of the show,  nor would I bring the one we normally use.  You see I have two in diapers yet, 5 months and 1.5 yrs old.  We have a single wide, two child stroller. Think pilot - copilot fighter plane style for the seating arrangment.  Now this thing is so big we actually nick-named it the Queen Mary.  But again, I wouldn't try to bring that because it takez up too much real estate.  That being said it would be a lot easier to get to the show with at least one child in tow, and having a small stroller might actually let me do that, and then I could spend some money at someone's stand, which is usually what makes people happy in this hobby.

There's another thing: the giant land cruiser stroller is less appropriate than the folding umbrella style (and they do come in single-wide two-seaters.) we had both, but the big one only got used on long walks in town.

Wouldn't this be fun...

 Better enforcement would be nice, but I don't think marshal law is necessary.

Maybe the equivalent of a meter maid at best.

Oooh darn! Gotta write a paycheck. 

In Mich. most spots have a cement post & sign.

 One guy I know, will double park, blocking you in with his van, and then laugh as he rolls himself through the front door . "Go ahead, call the cops, they like jokes too" 

 A note on paid event parking, and being handicapped:

 (Based on lawsuits against an upscale venue, valet service I started many years ago).

  You do not have the right to free parking with the handicap plate/card.

(but if you keep your mouth shut, you may not be charged)

   At a "valet only" private lot; You don't have the right to park yourself, or have your car parked closest to the doors either. If you are given an opportunity to exit the vehicle at a point near the doors with ample accessibility.

  Some custom vehicles that cannot be safely driven normally, by another driver "must" be allowed. (or if insurance forbids that too, you also better have a jack & a way to move it, so you can offer them service, a catch 22). 

Access is your only "right", anything more is just folks being nicer, when they can be 

  It is a fact, most insurance companies forbid anyone but employees from driving on the main lots.(so sue them, they have more money anyhow) 

 I estimate non-employee drivers are responsible for 50% of all venue damage.

 Other non-valet employees, do 40% more.

8% are idiots just walking by. 1% the hobo. 1% "sorry mister"

 (this says something about how some people drive and act outside at work...awful)

(at office jobs its the worst. I could have sworn a windshield wiper thief was following me around town )( One of my new cars actually made it a whole week before it was door dinged[one didn't make it 24hrs, another not 48 ]) 

 I'm not even going, and I keep having fearful thoughts of tripping and injuring a toddler with a dropped post war engine.

 I also remember I hated tight crowds till I was grown to about chest height.

That's enough about strollers in the halls. Just live with it. NO big deal. I'm 85 & I have no problem with it, or anything else blocking the aisles.

Mill City, though I removed my prior HP parking posts to not further the discussion, I feel compelled to respond to your sentiments. First, I took no umbrage to your initial post and thank you for enlightening me with your personal insights, knowledge, and involvement with handicapped parking.

I too, had both parents confined to walkers and wheelchairs in their final years and currently my wife and sister similarly require handicap parking to ease their physical burdens.

It is exactly the hop scotching abuse by healthy drivers which you've noted that irks me too. I don't advocate additional laws as I agree that would do little to curb abuse. However I mentioned in a post now removed, if placards have a photo of the person it is intended for then perhaps some abusers might be embarrassed if seen using a placard obviously intended for others, (if only because they're aware other drivers seeking parking might publicly call then out for parking in a spot not intended for them. Albeit, photo placards might still not be a formidable deterrent for most HP parking abusers, if it caused just a few abusers to reconsider and stop abusing HP parking privileges, it might be worth the slight additional cost of placing photos on HP placards.

Thank you for your enligthening civil response to my earlier post

The posts about strollers in the halls seem to now be heavily outnumbered by handicapped parking horror stories and laws pertaining to such.

Nothing any of us can do about it between now and October.  We'll just have to sit tight and see how it plays out.

-Dave

dont jump all over us that replied. go after the origional poster of this topic that started it. -Jim

So much angst for something so inconsequential. It's so much easier to take the high road and be courteous to everyone, whether they are in a wheel chair, scooter, pushing a stroller or on foot. When you attend any event with over 10,000 attendees do you really expect not to get bumped into?!

We're all tough guys who can take it!  We're model railroaders dang it!

Everyone just go to the Meet and have a good time and say hello when you see me. 

I nominate this thread for "Thread of the Year."

More nonsensical comments here than you can put in a grammer teachur's notepad.

BTW, my favorite Yorkie is the one who does not put a price on his item. Then, when you ask the price ( "Oh that 2343 ABA is $8,000" ) and realize the fellow is serious and raise your eyebrows, he gets angry. "Price too high? Make an offer."

Lets all be thankful that we can still go to York.

Originally Posted by Scrapiron Scher:

I'm sure this was brilliant

For a bunch of guys who spend a lot of time complaining about their dying hobby you all are completely unwilling to make concessions to allow for the younger generation to enter. The more strollers, the merrier. Ive we are going to keep our hobby alive we need to bring more children in

Eastern Division sets the rules. My thoughts on the rules are irrelevant.  If I don't like the rules I can:

• join the Eastern Division and attempt to effect change following their bylaws,
• choose to not attend York to show my displeasure
• attend York anyway and honor the rules as their guest
• be a jerk and disregard them on purpose while I attend the meet

I choose the third option.  

--Greg

Frankly, aside from reading this thread for its cause celebre qualities, than for any need to mull over such faux-horrors as the necessary presence of strollers and/or motorized-whatevers at such a venue, thinking of this would not have occurred to me.

Instead, may I suggest using the same strategy one uses when walking through a grocery store or down a busy sidewalk or throughout a shopping mall - simply use the same courtesy and consideration. We each give and take a little space as the path takes us, sometimes moving left when we might have gone right, or right when we might have gone left, sometimes giving space and right-of-way, and sometimes holding our ground. I have not bumped into anybody in my life (though the highways seem to insist on being the exception from time to time, for all of us.)

Of course, one watches out for the nutcases, and it would appear our beloved hobby is not bereft of those characters, is  it.

Go through some medical problems and come out at the other end of them feeling and being whole; then, see what "issues" get you cranky or exorcized. Relax. There is a great deal for which to be thankful. Be glad - be very, very glad - you are able to be present @ York and shop a little and see nice people. Don't let any contraption, person-energized or motorized, take up any of your time or peace. Make up your mind to be nice, pleasant and courteous. That will take away most woes, I trust.

FrankM.

Moonson, that's just crazy talk!

Jerry

There are much nicer places to walk. Keep in mind you have to share walking space just about everywhere.  The black stuff is from grizzly bears, you are to be making a fair amount of noise to let them know you are coming.  Carts and buggies were optional. Highline trail, Glacier National Park.

I was lucky with my very early morning hike, these guys were willing to share the trail.

Most cases, you are require to carry Bear Mace, though I've never had to use it.  Probably wouldn't be a good idea at York. 

This thread is so much fun to read some of the remarks

Mike

That may be a good idea:

"Most cases, you are required to carry Bear Mace, though I've never had to use it. Probably wouldn't be a good idea a York."

Larry

Well I guess that answers the question "Does a bear SH*T in the woods"?

Jerry

At York many guys have their own brand Train Mace, totally organic and no bulky awkward container to carry.

Going for hikes into the outback can be dangerous, you have to be cautious, some folk recommend bringing along little bells to attach to your bag and/or whistles so as to not startle the Bears. You should also, always look out for bear droppings, the smaller dropping what have bits of nuts and berries in are a sign of the smaller black bear, the larger grizzly dropping are easily identified....they will have little bits of bells and whistles in.....

Terry,

Might I suggest a cane with a hooked handle. It works wonders in the adult crotch when clearing an aisle.

Eliot,

Now you know why it is no longer taught in our public schools.

Airedale when me and my buddys went to Alaska back in the 80s the guy at the outfitters store in Hunt Valley talked us into buying "bear bells" to attach to our backpacks. He said the sound would let the bears hear us from a distance and they would disappear before we even saw them. When we got to Denali the rangers at the check in station said to us" I see you got the dinner bells." Apparently the bears knew the sound meant campers and campers meant food.

Jerry

Thats about it Jerry!!.....which begs the question:- should one take strollers into the outback? 

Pappy, perhaps you should have familiarize yourshelf with the entire exchange before going off. For your convenience:

Mill City, though I removed my prior HP parking posts to not further the discussion, I feel compelled to respond to your sentiments. First, I took no umbrage to your initial post and thank you for enlightening me with your personal insights, knowledge, and involvement with handicapped parking.

I too, had both parents confined to walkers and wheelchairs in their final years and currently my wife and sister similarly require handicap parking to ease their physical burdens.

It is exactly the hop scotching abuse by healthy drivers which you've noted that irks me too. I don't advocate additional laws as I agree that would do little to curb abuse. However I mentioned in a post now removed, if placards have a photo of the person it is intended for then perhaps some abusers might be embarrassed if seen using a placard obviously intended for others, (if only because they're aware other drivers seeking parking might publicly call then out for parking in a spot not intended for them. Albeit, photo placards might still not be a formidable deterrent for most HP parking abusers, if it caused just a few abusers to reconsider and stop abusing HP parking privileges, it might be worth the slight additional cost of placing photos on HP placards.

Thank you for your enligthening civil response to my earlier post

For those handicapped.  Note that Glacier National Park allows for motor access to the tops of the mountains, (Going to the Sun road). Logan Pass visitors center is completely handicap accessed.  There is handicap access to Hidden Lake from the Logan Pass visitors center.  A wonderful experience for everyone.

Hidden lake view from handicap access.

Note that the bears don't read as well as you and me.

I'm confused. With one hand you dispense God's Blessings, while with the other you hope and pray ill will upon others. The last line of your tag seams to suggests your contradiction.

God's Blessings,

"Pappy"

The Only Thing Consistent Is Inconsistency.

Would anyone mind bears being pushed in strollers (with a handicapped sticker) around the shows?

I hope we get a in depth report on the show? Someone reading this who has a stroller and is thinking about going will have to have a good game plan! Sort out the goodies from the baddies!........it could get ugly.  

Bit like this thread.

And don't step on one of these while walking around they don't appreciate it!

Isn't he lovely I snapped it from about a metre away on a track he was sunny himself and was lazy.

I feel for disabled people at these shows I was like that once walking around on crutches for months in 1970 as the results of a AK47 bullet from old Charlie hitting my femur and splitting it and even in those days to even catch a train nobody would help you in fact you run the risk of getting pushed over if someone was running to catch the same train. Until you are disabled you don't appreciate the problems these people have, lucky I recovered physical anyway, and can walk normally again with inserts in my shoes.

Roo

How do you tell the difference between a brown bear and a grizzly?

Sneak up behind the bear and kick him in the butt and then scramble up the nearest tree.

If he climbs it after you and kills you, it's a brown bear.

If he pushes it over and then kills you, it's a grizzly!

I do believe this is what they call "stream of consciousness".

Jerry

Handicapped train loving bears in strollers at York, I think I'm gonna have to go just to see that

I nominate this thread for "Thread of the Year."

More nonsensical comments here than you can put in a grammer teachur's notepad.

Well it gets my vote I actually had a laugh at some of the replies everybody lost control of themselves it's what the computer does to people it changes people into raving slaves of the internet.

Now back to serious business....Staging the layout for tomorrows session.

Can't wait to post some train stuff tomorrow!!!!!

Thanks.

Roo

ADA (American's with Disabilities Act) has been around for a long time.  Probably dates to Ronald Reagan as president. 

A couple of notes. 

Teton National Park has a public access  cable-tram that will carry anyone to the top of the Teton Mts.  Part of the 50 million spent on the project has to be ADA.  Recent news from the Grand Canyon about a blind hiker who did a double rim to rim hike in one day.   Another Grand Canyon story about a paraplegic, with his family, who did a hike to the bottom and back.   A lot can be done even with handicaps, IMO.

It has taken quite awhile, but at this point in time, many large scale remodel projects, that I have worked on, incorporate some, if not all, ADA requirements.   Not uncommon to see elevators added to relatively old buildings.  Last (three) Church remodels, that I worked on, had elevators install, as did one new car showroom.

We have been painting the blue handicapped parking on lots for a long long time.

IMO, ADA will change the classic small town main street look, that is the OGR Ameri-town model Series.  Many old multi-story buildings, just are not upgrade-able to ADA standards. In the next 15 to 20 years you will see a lot of empty holes in those old main streets.   IMO.   Mike CT   

Being a hiker (we call ourselves Bushwalkers), that is a good story Mike.

I'm going out next month for a couple of weeks for a bit of a stroll down the south coast of West Australia.

Still be cold and wet but how long do you wait???

I've got the layout staged for tomorrow, so I strolled over to this, this, this, computer. I was going to use profanity but I resisted, would have been censored anyway.

Keep up the good work mate.

Roo.

Thanks, Jerry, I appreciate your sense of humor.

It was totally worth it.

FrankM.

 What started as a discussion about a York Meet rule change turned into something about bears, snakes and hiking!

This forum is outstanding!     

Went to a Greenberg show today and if it was any indication of what York may become, I may need a weapon or drugs.

I may as well be about lions, and tigers, and bears, oh my.

Could you elaborate?

  I just remembered something funny.

 I was once running late, and I pulled into the handicap spot nearest the door, opened the glove box, and pulled out the handicap parking card to hang from the rearview.

 I jumped out quickly, and moved towards the door, around a little construction and in the lot some idiot is yelling obscenities. I continue briskly inside to attend to my business.

 It took a while looking, but I had the right floor.

  I heard the obscenities guy again....

Ah there's the hall, ...six rooms down on the right.

 Louder obscenities approached...

One; two; three; "HEY YOU!" four... five... hi Ddd! What In the #&^% are you doing using that card and parking in handicapped parking you....

(insert rage)

(insert my ignoring someone)...... lets see where was I? Oh yea...Hi Dad, here are your keys, I'm in a hurry, but I'll see you later, I am going to picked up in a minute.

  I then turned to the "gentleman" on my way out, and said "talk guy it the wheelchair, it's his".

   Assume.!.? Ahhh never mind, you know the joke 

Handicapped has nothing to do with what seems like many of today's inconsiderate and brain dead parents. Many strollers at todays meet, most of them unoccupied. Kids wandering uncontrolled and for the most part unsupervised, handling and playing with trains that were on the tables. Pity for the tableholders. Strollers controlled by many parents who made mind boggling changes of direction without a care in the world. Most of them probably exhibit the same behavior while on the road. Only got run into 3X in aisles the size of the orange hall. I can't imagine what it would be like in the member halls. It's not necessarily the strollers but the fools that control them. Since Greenberg's is a public show, I'm hoping the TCA members have more manners and consideration.

quote:

 I'm hoping the TCA members have more manners and consideration.

TCA members come from all walks of life. Some do, and some don't.

As I posted very early in this thread, if strollers present a problem, as they did before, then the ban will be reinstated.

I've been at a number of shows with my modules, and the worst was a TCA York meet in the Black Hall. One woman was grabbing 1:43 cars off of the module "for a better look", and a guy was writing a note using our station parking lot as a "table".

It will be a perfect shopping cart.

The one time that the TCA Fort Pitt Group was @ York, with our layout, (2 years ago), we were treated quite well, and everyone was wonderful.  Thanks to all, who viewed our layout.

Mike CT.  

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

And yet, I think we are all better off when we are accepting and welcoming of others.

FrankM.

Perhaps, that could even apply to our hobby as it tries to navigate around itself in the halls @ York?

Keep hearing about the "KID PULLING THINGS DOWN" argument. Claims are made that it has happened in events that allow strollers but never any first person accounts. Is this also the same kid we all heard about in grade school who cut his fingers off with the paper cutter? No one has ever seen him do it, no one knows of any fingerless kid because of it and no one can even give you a name or date when it happened. When we were younger we used to call this Old Guy Making Crap Up. The circuitous argument that starts with me trying to sharpen a pencil with a spoon and the end result is Hitler gets cloned and Germany finally prevails in it's attempt to rule the world. Some people just don't want strollers in the halls for what ever petty personal reason so they make wild claims about some horrendous disaster that will happen if it's allowed and they back it up with at best sketchy data. Remember all the arguments against pictures and phones and all the similar disasters that would happen? Never did happen did they?

Jerry

I believe that the no phone (two way radio) rule was needed 50 years ago. To prevent groups of people from buying bargains quickly. I think that reason is invalid at this time.

No pictures allowed was for security reasons for the individual. Security needs change with time. Do you put your name and address on the web? OGR website? Times you are going to York? Think security on this rule.

I think the current Photo rule is OK. Assuming the picture taker doesn't block up the aisles too much.

quote:

Claims are made that it has happened in events that allow strollers but never any first person accounts.

I have personally witnessed folks stumbling, and nearly falling over strollers at York. A accident waiting to happen. That was a long time ago, before strollers were banned.

Will there be problems? - I don't know, the show has evolved. If there are problems, I assume the ban will be reinstated.

Is anybody going to stay home because strollers are allowed?

Yes but did they stumble over a stroller because of the strollers fault or their own fault? Was this a one time occurrence or are we taking dozens of times at each York? I can't count how many times at York someone has walked into me or someone else because they weren't watching where they were walking, and don't even get me started on the scooter people who merrily will run into you and over your foot and give you the evil eye for having the audacity to shoot them a dirty look. If people had more situational awareness there wouldn't be a need for things like this, I mean how many times do you see someone fall over a stroller in a store or somewhere else?

Jerry

quote:

Yes but did they stumble over a stroller because of the strollers fault or their own fault?

The stroller, if it wasn't there the person would not have stumbled. Lucky he didn't land on the kid. (I've heard the term "trip hazard"}

If I saw one, then there had to be many more.

You asked for a first person account, you got one.

Amazing that this thread made the month of August. Original post was August 4th.  And the world is a better place.  

Those attending the York experience, please have fun. Plan ahead, there is a lot of walking, best to get a few miles in before you get there.   

Mike CT

Please note my avatar, I do hike with canes, though I prefer to call them walking sticks. There are advantages, mostly downhill.  I have always left the walking sticks home, anytime I attended York.   

One and that's all, you can't extrapolate "there had to be more if I saw one". I've been to train shows that allowed strollers, outdoor expos, boat shows, fishing shows, skiing shows, carnivals, state fairs, crowded stores and I've never once seen or heard of the cataclysmic events foretold here because of strollers. Maybe if people weren't walking along at York looking for their long lost pal or that Holy Graile item with single minded myoptic determination then maybe we wouldn't have any problems. I've had more than one encounter with these "wandering souls" plowing into me than I've ever had with any strollers anywhere. As for a tripping hazard, OSHA and the law don't define strollers as such, now boxes in the aisles, feet sticking out from chairs in the aisle, power cords, surface changes like a rug to tile floor etc. are tripping hazards. If they were considered tripping hazards most places including stores and malls wouldn't allow them. We heard the same arguments about cameras, blocking aisles, rearranging and knocking things over for a good picture and cell phones, blocking aisles, not paying attention to where they were walking and knocking people into displays or knocking over displays themselves. These haven't come to pass and I really don't think that WGAL will be reporting on any Child Crushed In Train Show Accident At York stories because of this.

Jerry

I've had more than one encounter with these "wandering souls" plowing into me than I've ever had with any strollers anywhere. I can't count how many times at York someone has walked into me or someone else because they weren't watching where they were walking, and don't even get me started on the scooter people who merrily will run into you and over your foot and give you the evil eye for having the audacity to shoot them a dirty look.

No matter what is additionally "allowed" in the halls, you can't fix stupid. That's why certain things are/should be banned so the "stupids" won't get a chance to exercise their "rights".

Yeah, there are certainly no "stupids" walking around on two feet at the Meet!

Marty,

The only hate mail you will get from me is when the Jets play the Patriots! Let's give York a try on the stroller decision and see what transpires. You  know in years to come, we are going to have motor scooter races at the track by the grandstands on Friday right after the OGR grandstand meeting with Ed Boyle starting the races and Rich Melvin with the winners flag. Lol! Just think about it as the hobby ages some more? 

Eat.

Sleep.

Beat the Jets.

Repeat.

Fly Eagles fly!    E-A-G-L-E-S   EAGLES!!

Are these allowed? 

Well sure!!

(Cue up opening theme song from movie "JAWS"...) 

Re the original post, I believe this eager participant was photographed crossing Carlisle Ave. on her way to the April York!!!...

Looks like a 4-2-0 to me!

KD

BTW...The 'driver' in the pink dress was observed to be packing one of these....

...perhaps for clogged aisles???

That is so 20th Century! 

Only if they have backup beepers like delivery trucks. And horns. Headlights, too? Oh, and spinner hubcaps.

You don't think anyone would take advantage of this do you?

Unfortunately you can't make make rules regarding stupidity, self-centeredness, or being oblivious to others. As long at there are attendees who exhibit such behaviors, be they walking on foot, or traversing hall isles in wheelchairs, scooters, or pushing strollers, there will be collisions, bumps, and associated bruises. The only true guardian against such unfortunate happenings isn't by establishing rules but by all attendees being considerate of others and the likelihood of that occurring 100% of the time is nil.

Whattt!!??  I can't bring my three-wide stroller with my darling, but sometimes grabby,

little triplets?  I can watch them MOST of the time.

Or at least pushing your purchases in one. The notice did not say that a baby had to be in it, nor did it show one in the illustration.