Strollers in the halls

Sounds good. See you this fall with my new machine! Comin' in  Hot!

I am certain this will be welcome news for some.

Imagine, diaper bag, and lots of STORAGE for those finds you discover

My going to York is a non-issue as I live on the opposite side of the country and am not into 3-rail, but the stroller decision is great news in general anyway. These strollers keep getting bigger and bigger and we all know how the owners act when they're pushing their 'snowplows' through crowds. Heck, I know a guy who doesn't even have a kid and he puts his Yorkie pup in one and uses it at gun shows like a shopping cart and a way to get people to move aside.

Some gun shows I go to have aisles just wide enough for one of these big strollers. At one a few months ago. a stroller was crushing against the tables on each side. Nobody could stay in the aisle with that coming by. It came to head when an older guy just stood there very defiantly and said, "I'm not getting out of the way, because you don't get to have the entire aisle to yourself with that plastic SUV of yours!"

I think it's just another piece of the, "I'm special and here's why" mentality people have anymore, where they have to have something you now have to move around. Any venue that bans them gets my approval any day of the week.

They allow cell phones and the world will stop rotating...wait, never mind.

They allow photography and gravity will cease to exist..sorry, my bad.

They allow strollers and the sun will go out...TBD 

Jerry

Well, since it takes me half at day to race through all the halls, missing something, I

am sure, I want to use a Segway, and, if that is not fast enough, an ATV.  This must

be predicated on their doubling the width of all the aisles, and opening up for tables

every chicken coop (the stables?) on the fairgrounds to provide for that?

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll be certain to bring extra Band-Aids for my Achilles tendons! Love children, hate getting whacked by strollers. The stroller rule was one that I was 150% OK with.

Since York went to three days people with strollers should have no problem navigating the Orange Hall, see the layouts, etc.  Now the Red, Blue and Silver...those isles are not for strollers...heck two people barely fit the width of an isle.  And if you really want to race around, hit the Orange on a Saturday.  You can run through with it and not hit too many people.  BigRail

Segway? ATV? I vote for this instead, 

No problem!!!.....

And therein lies the problem with shows, overall. By trying to fit as much as possible into a hall, the aisles are often made comically narrow. I saw a gun show a few months ago where the aisles were so tight, two guys on opposite sides of an aisle were able to pass a pen back and forth without having to throw it or move from behind their sales tables!

I remember hitting the Timonium MD show in 1998 (the last time I was in the area when it was going on) and found the aisles to be very wide, so much so that a family of 4 could probably have walked line abreast and people could still have gotten around them. I've never seen aisles that wide at any show since.

I am against it.  Walking the aisles is tough enough.  I would not want to be the person who made that decision.  Wrong on all counts.  When the child reaches out and pulls something valuable to the floor, who is going to eat that loss?  The halls are tough enough to get through.  

I wish they would't let them in, some are so large I really question the room for them. If used, do they have to have a child in them or can we just use baskets on wheels for gathering our bargins. It seems that some of the scooters have gotten so large that they are closer to golf carts and ATV's. Some of the users have little or no consideration for us walking slugs. They bump into you, refuse to not block the isles, go the wrong direction. I will probably feel different when I can't walk the lanes.

Buzz 

I think kids in strollers are better then the power chairs people use to get around. Most of them are too large and too many of them don't look out for other people. 

I would like to see some kids at the show instead of the place looking like God's waiting room.

 We don't have kids, but if we did, York is the last place we would bring them--at least until they're older and only if they have an interest in trains.  There are plenty of other places to bring a kid in a stroller where he/she can see trains, and for that matter, more interesting places too. I'm pretty sure little kids would rather see trains in action, not row after row of them laying out for sale on tables. I agree--bad call on allowing strollers.

Bluecomet, thanks for the support.  I figured I would get hate mail but I say what I feel.  This is only going to go VERY bad if they do this.  

 The ADA(Americans with Disabilities Act) comes in at some point on this subject. The venue has to provide aisle wide enough for wheel chairs, scooters, and other mobility aids. If the aisle are to narrow the fire inspector should could become involved.

  I have seen this problem at gun shows, and craft shows and think the solution is a minimum aisle size and only allow "small" strollers. Use common sense. Many parents can't attend an event without bringing a child or two. Single parents with no baby sitter for example.

Douglas 

Although I agree about watching out for scars on the achilles, I think allowing strollers is a good idea.  It will encourage parents in their 30's to attend a train meet.  I.e., allowing strollers isn't being done to recruit kids in strollers, it's being done to recruit their 20- and 30- and 40-something parents whom we need to keep this thing going.  

That said, please write me offline if you want my thoughts on what to do to some oblivious dingbat who runs over your achilles heel with a stroller...

Steven J. Serenska, who brought his oldest daughter at the ripe old age of 9 days to a NETCA meet, in 1990.

I want to chime in, because I wrote an email to EDTCA some time ago asking for a rule change to allow single width strollers and I believe this may have been the impetus for the rule change.  I understand others may differ, but it is not my intention to argue with people on the internet but simply to set forth why I asked for the rule change.

First, I enjoy O gauge trains, my wife supports the hobby, and we have two boys (4 and 6) who also really enjoy trains.  My wife and I are of the view that children must be well behaved and must understand that they cannot just grab things that aren't theirs.  Moreover, while we think our kids are cute, I don't expect you to think they are cute.  So we aren't raising brats.  That being said, I've gone to York for a long time, and we like to make it a family event. So how does one do a family meet at York with little kids without a stroller?  We can't stay together in the halls (wife watches kids, kids don't go, etc) or we have to keep them under control in the halls.  With a single width stroller (we use a dual stroller that is no wider than a single width stroller), you can keep the kids in the stroller, under control.  They can see the trains, we can keep them in check and out of people's way.  In this manner, strollers are certainly no worse than the power chairs that have become quite common and in many instances, are far less of an obstacle than the chairs.

Second, the demographic of the hobby is aging.  We have many conversations here about attracting the young people into the hobby.  We also talk about this being a great family hobby.  And yet we had a rule that makes it pretty clear that families and children don't belong at York  I accept that York isn't the penultimate train show for kids -- an operating show would be better -- but it is something I attended as a kid and that probably led me to stay with the hobby because it is such a train spectacle.  It still blows my mind today after so many years.  My boys really love going as well.  Point is that if you want to talk about bringing young people into the hobby and into TCA, and if you want to talk about trains being a family hobby, there is at least some inconsistency in having a rule that makes it impracticable for young families to attend. Moreover, by effectively excluding kids, you are excluding their 30-40 year old parents as well -- again, driving people away who I would think you would want to try to involve in TCA and the hobby generally.

Finally, I hear the complaints about stroller width, ankles, etc.  I understand the concern.  But the problem with these issues, with all respect, isn't strollers per se but it is inconsiderate people.  I've run into people at York who go down the aisles the wrong way, people in power chairs who block the aisles completely, people driving too fast in the lots, etc.  I also run into jerks in jogging strollers that are the width of a Smart car.  I get it.  From the perspective of stopping rude behavior, however, the answer there is to have the hall personnel rectify these situations, not just exclude whole classes of people.  That is not the way to grow the show, the TCA, or the hobby generally.  I understand that there may be a segment of TCA, perhaps older and either with grown kids or perhaps without kids, who simply don't want to be bothered, but with all respect if TCA doesn't branch out and get younger people involved in the show, the organization, and the hobby, TCA is going to die out in the next 10-20 years.  Accepting strollers at York is a small but meaningful commonsense measure that will encourage families and children to attend the show. 

Yeah, but I hate it even more when I get whacked by on of those deluxe oversized scooters that they call wheelchairs.  They are the real hazard!

So the same applies to the Elderly man who must touch, feel and ultimately drop the $2000 piece???  Really?

Ultimately the point is to either allow both strollers and scooter, with appropriately sized aisles, or allow NEITHER. 

Thank you Eastern Division for moving forward with this.  FINALLY!

Gpriych, I am all for a person who is disabled to have a scooter.  If they are short on funds, I will help them out.  I always thought some sort of card was needed to rent a scooter showing disability.  I was wrong.  I see many people who are just fat renting them and getting out of them and going for a walk.  We have all seen this.

I have nothing against youngsters in a stroller as long as the pusher of said stroller keeps it off the back of my feet.  I feel Eastern division is making a mistake.  Everyone wonders how long York will last.  Lets re-visit this situation after York.

BTW, I have never heard of anyone elderly person dropping any 2,000 item.

  I have attended 70 York shows and feel I would have heard about a situation like that if it were to exist.  I have always been a huge supporter of Eastern Division.

I would not be against allowing strollers to be used at York.  As others noted, it allows members w/ young family members to attend the meet.  I would think that if they attended on the much less crowded Saturday, they would have much more ease at moving through the meet, especially the orange hall.

As for complaints of strollers being pushed upon your heels, I will add that while at train shows or public events, I've been hit at least 5 times as much by someone in either a powered scooter/jazzy chair, wheelchair, or walker than by someone pushing a stroller.  Either item requires attention and consideration of those around by the person using their stroller or aid.  To those who say that they don't want to have to worry about falling into a stroller, the same is true for the person in a wheelchair; you also don't want to fall or trip into them.  It may sound easier said than done, but a responsible parent pushing a stroller should be constantly aware of his/her surroundings.  While looking at tables the stroller parent must also be on the lookout for any person walking/talking/chewing gum who's not paying much attention to those around themselves.  Also, just like a parent w/ a walking child who might experience a tantrum or meltdown, the responsible parent should take the time needed to calm the child and also be prepared to take a timeout outside the hall so as not to disrupt others.

I hope stroller use is successful and without incident, but as mentioned, it all boils down to how courteous is the parent and those attending the meet.

Long time York attendees may remember that in the past strollers were allowed in the halls.
The first time I brought my family along, including our young son, Strollers were allowed. However, in our judgment, bringing our stroller into those crowded halls would be both unpleasant for the child, and dangerous. And I did witness one fellow fall over a stroller in one of the halls. Unlike mobility scooters, some of the strollers of the day were rather low to the ground, and easy to miss.
I think we did bring the stroller into a hall or two very late in the day, when the crowds were quite thin.

Now that strollers are allowed again, I hope everybody will use good judgment.

Enjoy the show. 

That is they key - good judgement.

I have been rear-ended by strollers at local shows pushed by people preoccupied by what they were looking at on the tables or what was on their cell phones or some other distraction.  It is not pleasant, and potentially dangerous to the child.

I think that the average TCA member has better judgement in this matter than the looky-loos at the local shows.  I hope I am not proven wrong.

Andy

For starters, it's nice to see a civil discussion of a contentious topic - thanks to everyone, at least so far.

Both sides have valid points - York should be as family-friendly as possible, but counting on people using good judgement is dicey, and there is a substantial risk for accidents.  

On balance, I think it will not go well, but I'm willing to give it a try.

Very little has been mentioned about a possible simple solution - make the aisles wider.  At recent meets, there has been a surplus of tables in several of the halls, and some have speculated that the Brown hall might be closed in the near future.  Why not eliminate one row of tables from each hall?  This might cause a handful of people in the blue and silver halls to move to red or white, but I think it would serve the greater good.   

Mallard's point is exactly the one I was making...open some other buildings and widen

the aisles....!! Most of us could stand that even if chairs and strollers, suitcases,

backpacks, etc. were disallowed.

there are federal laws regarding those with disabilitys  having access to public buildings and events. what your proposing is both wrong and illegal regarding  a disabled person from using a 'scooter'

btw, bad call on the eastern division allowing strollers,plenty of public shows[worlds greatest hobby shows come to mind ] for the 'family' to attend. -Jim

Marty:

Sorry, I can't let this one lie.  

I indeed saw this firsthand, although it wasn't a single $2,000 item that was dropped, it was a shelf full of items adding up to $2,000 or more.

I was sitting in my booth at York in the Orange Hall watching a guy in a scooter alternately pulling nose-in to a booth/table, looking things over, then backing up without looking, etc.  He wasn't watching anything other than what he was interested in.

At one point, he backed up and the top of his scooter chair (where there was something like a bicycle basket) hooked underneath a shelf full of trains in the next guy's booth from mine.  

Many of us, including me, started shouting "STOP! STOP! STOP! PLEASE!  SIR!  YOU'RE HOOKED! YOU'RE GOING TO PULL IT OVER!".  The guy looked around, trying to figure out why he had stopped, and why people were yelling at him and, then, in a clear "eff it" move, he zoomed forward taking the vendor's entire shelf full of trains with him.

Many of us moaned and groaned out loud and began helping the poor seller set up his shelf, picking up and placing the trains where he had had them.

It's worth noting that the boor who did all the damage 1) did not apologize, and 2) did not even wait around for the cleanup to be complete.

So, yes, it does happen.  Adults do drop or push over trains.

**** pause ****

However, did this happen because he was elderly or because he was on a scooter?  I think it didn't.  I think it happened because he was completely oblivious to anyone other than himself and, having observed his behavior after he knocked everything over, I think it's likely his was a life-long condition of inconsideration of others and obliviousness in general.

There are old boors on scooters and young boors pushing strollers.  The combination of being on the lookout for trains and piloting a less-than-navigable mechanical device in a cramped space adds up to a minor (and sometimes major) annoyance for the rest of us.

I personally tolerate both because, in the first case, I say to myself, it's good that the old guy still gets out there ... and I'm about the last guy who would take that away from anybody.  On the flip side, I am ecstatic to tolerate strollers, because it means that a young father is following in my footsteps and hopefully introducing the hobby to the boys and girls riding in the stroller.

This post is going on too long, but I'll finish by saying I'm interested in hearing others' ideas/suggestions concerning how we might, as a group, politely request people pushing or riding on these conveyances be a little more alert to their surroundings and fellow collectors.

Hoping this is all food for thought,

Steven J. Serenska

Why would anyone want to bring a stroller into the halls in the first place? 

One Small thing. I believe the stroller should be used for a child. Not just a shopping cart for trains.

quote:

This post is going on too long, but I'll finish by saying I'm interested in hearing others' ideas/suggestions concerning how we might, as a group, politely request people pushing or riding on these conveyances be a little more alert to their surroundings and fellow collectors.

IMHO, sometimes rules are made when people show themselves unable to use good judgment or have consideration for others. If allowing strollers turns out to be problematic, then I'd guess the Eastern Division will reinstate the ban. At least they will have tried.

So far, lifting the ban on cell phone use and partially lifting the ban on photography has not created any serious problems. Hopefully lifting the stroller ban will have the same results.

I've never been to the York show. What was the reason for banning cells and cameras? I'd imagine there would plenty to take photos of and banning the use of cell phones in this day and age seems to be a completely unrealistic goal (which I assume is why it was lifted?).

Reminds me a monthly gun show they have near me. Everyone would be asked if they have loaded firearms, then asked if they have a camera. One time I couldn't ignore the silliness of the second question and I said quite loud, "Well of course I have a camera, and so does anyone walking in here with the cell!" The security guards just froze dead in their tracks. I couldn't believe it, but that had obviously never occurred to any of them!

quote:

What was the reason for banning cells and cameras?

Whatever the reason, there is no purpose served by revisiting these obsolete issues.