Suggestions to create waterfall with REAL water

Unfortunately, real water doesn't "scale down."  You won't get a vision like that of the puzzle, it will look more like a trickle from a leaking faucet.  Plus everything will have to be water tight and thanks to normal evaporation, the water supply would have to be replenished periodically.

Rusty

My opinion is don't do it. The real water will only lead to corrosion/rust, and will attract creatures as well as creating mold/mildew.

It's one of those things that sounds like a good idea, but does not translate well to reality.

I'm with Roy, you're just asking for trouble.

Well, the bubbles of boiling water in the Big Boy boiler are the same size as those in your tea kettle, but as was mentioned, water does not scale down.  I think it has to do with the weight of it, such a small quantity has no mass to cascade as it does in real life.  But if you just have to do it, look also into the coloration chemical added to real ponds to make them bluer, it may enhance how the flow looks, and as mentioned, be prepared for rust, evaporation, leaks, bad odors, and attracting small critters.

I have to agree, it would be great it theory to have "the real thing", but dealing with real water on a layout is likely to be really difficult to get to work right and has all kinds of pitfalls.  Here is why I wouldn't do it:

1)It likely won't look like a waterfall as you envision it, it will look like water rolling over a sink that has overflowed. The effect of a waterfall in real life  , that white color, is caused by a rapid rush of water and the oxygen dissolved in the water, with the flow you can do at home, it won't look like that.

2)Water like that, even though it is circulating, will tend to end up growing stuff in it like algae and the like, plus as others have said, it likely will attract mold and mildew.

3)Guaranteed, no matter how careful you are with the channel that feeds into the waterfall, and the catch basin at the bottom,water will end up leaking into the surrounding scenery, and that won't be pleasant.

I vaguely remember reading about other attempts are using 'real' water in things like streams and the like, and they usually ended up being disappointing to those who tried it. I remember asking someone about using real water (it could have been at choo choo barn a couple of decades ago) and them smiling and basically saying they had tried it and forget it...

Even creating a waterfall using epoxy products and/or silicon stuff is not easy to get that effect. I you really want falls, I would do a search on articles in various modelling magazines about it and see what experts have done and the techniques they used. Only other thing I could think of is use video trickery, where you incorporate video of the real thing running on a loop and incorporate a display showing the loop in the scenery where it is 'blended in', but that is definitely above my pay grade to do.

You want to keep moisture away from your layout not invite it to raise havoc and safety concerns with your layout. Obviously water and electricity doesn't play well with each other, the moisture will invite rust and corrosion to your track (especially Fastrack!) and trains, and as mentioned by others earlier will create mold, mildew, and other issues if you don't regularly clean and completely change the water and clean your pump filter. It's a nice idea in thinking scenery realism but not practical in the model train world.  A water leak could destroy your layout and all your hard work that you have done in a big hurry.😱

This as close to a real waterfall I would get on a layout.

WOW!! Many thanks for the quick and helpful replies - the very reason I posted my query.  My wife will be VERY PLEASED. She was against this for most of the reasons posted!!

I do want to clarify one point.  I had no intention of making the falls with real water only. My intention is to follow the approach described by Dave Frary to use strips of clear styrene covered with Water Effects, then have Realistic Water on the top and bottom (see photo from his text). He describes this can be built in an hour. For me would take more like a week.  I thought a trickle of water running down the strips would look cool. 

What I might do instead is build a small prototype first with my grandson to learn how to create the falls using Frary's approach. That will be a fun, learning project for both of us.  We might then add real water to the prototype, but not to the final one on the layout.  Gotta keep my wife happy  - 3 more years to the big 50!!

Thanks again. Always appreciate the advice from this forum.

Michael

So, to add to the 'don't-do-its',...Don't do it!!

Instead, work to create your best visual simulation of a waterfall.  Woodland Scenics  has a DIY video suggestion on a technique, but there's a lot more 'how2's out there...some rather spectacular, I might add.

But then!...Add a speaker behind the waterfall, and play ITT Products GL515 "Waterfall" continuously through it, and you'll get all the smiles of a waterfall...and none of the yuckies that come with real water and maintenance thereof.

Waterfall sound

Just a suggestion...FWIW.

KD

Great idea about the sound module. I have several of them, including kids playing in water I intend to use at bottom of falls. Thanks.

I believe Woodland Scenics sells a waterfall kit. As for the real water - I had thoughts myself of doing it but backed out. One thing besides what has been mentioned is the water will get dirty and that will get the scene dirty.

IMHO it's not worth the headaches it will create and the  damage and corrosion and other problems!

Alan

Michael,

I use an approach similar to the one you posted.

Only I use regular plastic bag material instead of clear styrene strips and clear silicone caulk instead of the commercial water materials or gloss gel.

The caulk is thicker and easier to apply as well as being less expensive. You want the clear silicone kitchen and bath stuff - not the window and door type caulk.

You can also add some cotton or poly fiber material at the base of the waterfall to simulate splashing.

Some examples from my old layout:

Jim

I (very briefly) considered using real water for my waterfall, then created this one using most of the methods and techniques also described by others above:

@Jim Policastro that waterfall looks very nice.  I used a similar method with clear latex caulk for a wintertime ice fall.  Click for larger image.

@RoyBoy posted:

My opinion is don't do it. The real water will only lead to corrosion/rust, and will attract creatures as well as creating mold/mildew.

It's one of those things that sounds like a good idea, but does not translate well to reality.

This is exactly what my advice would be also for the exact same reasons.

@Jim Policastro posted:

Michael,

I use an approach similar to the one you posted.

Only I use regular plastic bag material instead of clear styrene strips and clear silicone caulk instead of the commercial water materials or gloss gel.

The caulk is thicker and easier to apply as well as being less expensive. You want the clear silicone kitchen and bath stuff - not the window and door type caulk.

You can also add some cotton or poly fiber material at the base of the waterfall to simulate splashing.

Some examples from my old layout:

Jim

Michael.  Very nice I like it so much I am going to copy. I suppose one could use as wave effects on Lake or pond?

You could try this.  It’s cheap, easy and you probably have the ingredients.  It may seem weird but I used his technique for water and it came out great.

https://youtu.be/8b7H3xuEhW8

Just about nothing looks LESS real on an O scale layout than real water. Modeled water features, properly done, are far more realistic looking.

Please - Don't! Water and electricity don't mix at all.

I have used a couple of the operating Dept 56 waterfalls on layouts. They add another dimension of movement.

I modified them by removing trees and building them into a piece of scenery.

Fwiw.

Since you say it was one of the grandkids who wanted real water, I think your idea of a prototype not on your layout is excellent. It’ll be a good learning experience and your grandchild will see for themselves that it doesn’t look right and still appreciate your trying. Only you will know in advance it’s a sunk cost in time and materials.

Well the votes are in. On the question of using real water for a model train waterfall:

Those in FAVOR=          0

Those OPPOSED or suggested other techniques= 18

Truly appreciate the advice, especially on the techniques.  As noted, I like to try a small prototype on any "first time" scenery project. Given that the waterfall I want to mimic is a straight drop that lands away from the canyon wall, I'll begin with the styrene strip method, and go from there.

Thanks again,

Michael

Hi Michael,

Though I agree with most of the comments above, you may want to take a look at this guy as he embarks on his journey with this.

Dave

Recommend you do as everyone suggested don’t do it.

@Michael Pags posted:

Well the votes are in. On the question of using real water for a model train waterfall:

Those in FAVOR=          0

Those OPPOSED or suggested other techniques= 18

That's as close to a consensus as you're ever going to get on the forum!  I suspect there's a strong message there.

Yes, Ron, but Forest did some incredible feats!!

Like I said, I'll run a prototype. At this point, I intend to try the styrene strips, and kitchen bag approaches, and compare the ease of construction, outcome, and cost.  Then will try adding some water to please my grandson.

I am fully aware of hazards of water and electricity, but small waterproof pumps are made specifically for fish tanks, which I have.  Of course this does not address mold, algae, critter issue, but I have a small fish tank with NO live fish in it.  Fish and divers suspended by string and glass balls, which bob in the water.  This avoids feeding and cleaning, but retains the look of a fish tank with clean water.  Grandkids love it.  Even add a few drops of bleach ever so often to prevent mold/algae, etc.  In any case, the prototype will reveal whether this is worth it or not.

I attached another photo of the intended area that includes a photo of the actual falls taken by a local photographer.  Now, along with this project I must create the canyon walls, which will be another "first" for me.  I have used Heiki Rock Foil and Shaper Sheets in other areas with great success, but this might require stacks of pink foam insulation in some areas.  That will be part of the prototype experience.

Thanks again,

Michael

I'm going to be the contrarian and say "go for it!".

Although I have never tried real water, I have been tempted. I completely realize that "avoid real water" has been canon law within the toy train world forever, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun. Most likely will be a disaster, but so what? Nobody will die. And, who knows? Maybe the right combination of careful containment, chlorine beach, and routine maintenance could lead to a unique success story.  I say "Carry on!".

P.S. -- When I considered doing this, my plan was to arrange an auto-fill from a large container, and auto-drain to another. That way, there would never be standing water to leak or grow algae.   Just a thought.

Other idea for real use a water aerator (so not just a trickle) and an atomizer on bottom to include some mist.

Somehow, spraying the water around doesn't seem to be a particularly good idea.

Hi Michael:

Wise choice on passing on using real water.

Question:

Where did you source the autumn foliage backdrop? I will eventually be interested in such for my backdrop.

Thanks.

Andre

@modeltrainsparts posted:

Please - Don't! Water and electricity don't mix at all.

I agree with one exception: one of my favorite Postwar accessories combines real water and electricity: the #38 water tower. It uses real distilled water and has a water pump to pump the water into a reservoir in the middle of the water tank, causing the water level around the circumference of the tank to go down.

I think the #38 water tower was only made in the late 1940s, and I wonder if Lionel discontinued it because of accidents involving real water, electricity and young children.

There's only one layout where I can recall seeing real water. It was either Roadside America or the Choo Choo Barn. While I understand the temptation to try it (I've been tempted to), toy trains and water simply don't mix well.

Way back, my mother and my aunt used to take my brother and I to Manhattan at Christmas time.  Of course I was always interested in the layouts in Macy’s, Gimbal’s, Polk’s and other stores.  One I remember very well was a layout at Altman’s.  One year there was a river of real water.  At the bottom of the river were 2 clear plastic tube with Lionel trains running back and forth under the river.  I was never able to find a picture of it.

Thanks to all for the continued advice. My wife is still opposed to any water in the basement train room, so that must also be factored into this. In any case, I am still interested in constructing a prototype with my grandson who is VERY interested. These are always great learning experiences for me.

Laming, I purchased the autumn backdrop from Trackside Scenery back in 2016 (an indication of how long I've been working on this layout!!). I worked with Joey Ricard who was very accommodating in customizing 2 panels to my exact needs (moved the position of roads, rocks, and stream, etc).  Looks like the panels still exist: FV-03 and 06. Here is the website: https://tracksidesceneryshop.com/index.php.

Thanks,

Michael

I believe MTH offered a farmhouse on fire that had a fire truck spraying real water on the house. I don't know how that panned out.

Miniature Wunderland uses real water.

Neat, but not convincing.

Rusty

Listen to your wife.