Sunset 3rd loco issues

It would help to know specifically what locomotives you're trying to run and their age.  Also, what electronics are installed, QSI, TAS TMCC, ERR TMCC, what?

Echoing GRJ's comments.  I have a number of Sunset/3rd Rail steamers, most of which were bought, delivered, and stored until last spring.  Two of them failed upon testing.  Both had TrainAmerica (TAS) motherboards and ancillaries.  I converted the oldest one (TAS SAW motherboard) to ERR electronics and the other had a failed tachometer board and reversed wiring thereto.  Fellow NMRRC member Roy Aydelotte (Royz Trains) noted that, in his experience, many of the TrainAmerica equipped locomotives have failed.  I would not go so far as to say that all TAS electronics should be replaced, whether they need it or not, but one should not be surprised if that becomes necessary.  The conversion to ERR is relatively straightforward, with the major complication being the smoke unit control.

As for power sources, my layout uses the Lionel 180W "bricks".  I often use a vintage KW transformer for bench testing.  That KW has a far greater variation of output voltage vs. load than do the "bricks", particularly for its variable outputs (A and B), despite renewing its rollers, etc.  So I have to take that into account during bench testing - or pull one of the "bricks" from the layout and use it on the bench.  I haven't tested a vintage ZW, but suspect that it suffers from similar issues, in addition to its known winding insulation matter.

B&O T-3b 4-8-2 TMCC with Railsounds 4.0, ERR Cruise Commander 4.3 from 2011

B&O P-7e 4-6-2 TMCC with Improved Railsounds, ERR Cruise Commander 4.5 Version 8

B&O Q-4b 2-8-2 TMCC with Railsounds 4.0

Still searching for additional information requested

3rdrail engines are notorious for poor power connection to the track.  Hence the reason why I install a pickup roller on the tender and make sure the trailing and lead trucks are electrically connected to the chassis.  While you could have board failures.  First thing you should do is oil the driver wheels and the pickup rollers.  Bet any oil is long dried up.  Also I would try running them on a layout with command control.  If all else fails, I see you shipping them off to one of the experts here to get them running.

The Quill I just received wouldn't run well until the wipers were cleaned and the spring tension increased against the back of the wheels.

Here's an update. Following your advice, I've worked on two of the engines so far. The L-1 0-8-0 I cleaned the wheels and rollers, and lubed axles and gearbox. It does not have a battery in the tender. It runs, but there is a lot of static in the sound, and it just stops periodically, often in the same locations.

The T-3 4-8-2 had an old battery in it with some kind of fluid leak, but no corrosion. I cleaned up the leak and installed a fresh battery. I changed the switch from TMCC to CONV. I cleaned all wheels, pickup rollers, and the back of the tender wheels where the wipers are. I lubed all axles and the gearbox. Also, the front tender truck was reversed so it didn't track well. Runs well now, but sound doesn't work right. There is a constant air compressor sound, but no steam exhaust in forward, and no or random exhaust in reverse.

I had some correspondence from Scott Mann. The Type V and Z transformers I'm using should work fine.

I welcome your thoughts and advice.

Another update. P-7e 4-6-2 works! It had a corroded battery that expired 2018, but no collateral damage. Replaced it. Cleaned wheels and pickup rollers, lubed axles and gearbox. Ran fine with good sound.

Final loco, the Q-4b. Replaced expired battery, cleaned wheels and pickups, lubed axles, pickups, and gearbox. Ran and reversed direction. Sound worked. Unfortunately, it has a hesitation every 3-4 driver rotations. What could that be?  I see it has a "rubber band" drive. Wondering if that could be the issue?

Today, the T-3 wouldn't run.

Help!

@Ken Wing posted:

Final loco, the Q-4b. Replaced expired battery, cleaned wheels and pickups, lubed axles, pickups, and gearbox. Ran and reversed direction. Sound worked. Unfortunately, it has a hesitation every 3-4 driver rotations. What could that be?  I see it has a "rubber band" drive. Wondering if that could be the issue?

Today, the T-3 wouldn't run.

Help!

I wouldn’t call it a rubber band.  It’s 3rdrail’s belt drive and it’s one of the smoothest drive systems out there.  3rdrail usually have 20-1 or is it 16-1 gear ratio, so the belt spins many times before you get one complete wheel rotation.  You’re issues could be a host of things,  I’m still thinking you have a power pickup issue.  I’m not a fan running these engines in conventional if they have EOB.  The ERR equipped engine should be just fine.  I would run the snot out of them.  One doesn’t sound like they are broken in and they have been sitting for awhile.  All else fails, send them to one of the repair gurus on the forum.

I took an old Sunset Allegheny and ripped out the board. I installed a MTH ps2 board set and all the engine issues went away.

I just don't run it much because it's 3 rail.

I have 2 others that have the original TMCC control boards inside and they run good as is!

@Engineer-Joe posted:

I took an old Sunset Allegheny and ripped out the board. I installed a MTH ps2 board set and all the engine issues went away.

I have 2 others that have the original TMCC control boards inside and they run good as is!

Joe,

In the first situation you describe removing and replacing is probably the correct answer for you, but seems a little hasty.  (I take it you used the term "ripped out" for a reason, like being so annoyed with the existing electronics that anything less wouldn't describe your dissatisfaction.)

For most people though it's not the first thing that should come to mind.  Diagnosis isn't about ripping.  It's more about thorough analysis followed by gentle persuasion.  Get all the electro-mechanical issues sorted out first before replacing the electronics.  If this requires temporarily connecting the motor to an electronic e-unit and bypassing command control then certainly start there.

Don't replace electronics unless the diagnosis indicates that doing so is the appropriate next step.  A big part of this is understanding that the logic of diagnosis is a critical skill to learn.

Ken seems to be on the right track here with his first steps.

Mike

Well...., yes..., maybe..., OK?

The engine would make a loud hum and then lurch forward when power was increased. It ran rough. You had to hold your hand over the tender to get it to stay running. Etc., Etc. I didn't know much about TMCC back then. I went by advice from experienced members here.

I didn't know much about how the CVs were changed. On the second engine, messing with the CVs on the TMCC board cured some issues.

That Allegheny, was just a bad board set. Putting in PS2, solved all it's issues and it ran so smoothly after that. Maybe it could have been fixed. It just seemed crude.

Everyone should evaluate each engine and figure out what's wrong. If the mechanism is smooth, motor is good, wiring is good, You'll have to decide when to upgrade. I decided to upgrade the Allegheny and I am still happy with it's performance.

Thank you for all the contributions and encouragement here. I'm feeling it's time to focus on one loco at a time. The choice is between the Q-4b where the electronics work but there seems to be a mechanical bind that has a longer frequency than both motor and driver rotation (which doesn't sound like it's mechanical), and the T-3b with no steam exhaust and intermittent not running at all.

I'm inclined to take on the T-3b, but welcome your input on the choice of loco and the best way to proceed.

I do have a Dallee Electronics reversing board on hand, if that affects your recommendation.

Gary, I'm afraid to just run the Q-4b to break it in for fear of damaging it in some way. And what does "EOB" stand for?

Gary's hunch addressed most of the issues. I got out the spare KW and hooked jumper wires direct from transformer to pickup and frame. The T3-b 4-8-2 ran perfectly with sound. The 0-8-0 had no sudden stops. The Q-4b 2-8-2 had no hesitations.

I worked on cleaning the drivers again while they were spinning, and picked up more black gunk, so I didn't do a good job on that the first time.

At this point there are just two issues left. The Q-4b direction doesn't cycle properly when power is interrupted, and when it does cycle, there is no neutral, just forward and reverse. The 0-8-0 still has static/hum in the sound.

Thanks, Gary!

Appreciate all of your thoughts about next steps with the Q-4b and/or 0-8-0

@Ken Wing posted:

Thank you for all the contributions and encouragement here. I'm feeling it's time to focus on one loco at a time. The choice is between the Q-4b where the electronics work but there seems to be a mechanical bind that has a longer frequency than both motor and driver rotation (which doesn't sound like it's mechanical), and the T-3b with no steam exhaust and intermittent not running at all.

I'm inclined to take on the T-3b, but welcome your input on the choice of loco and the best way to proceed.

I do have a Dallee Electronics reversing board on hand, if that affects your recommendation.

Gary, I'm afraid to just run the Q-4b to break it in for fear of damaging it in some way. And what does "EOB" stand for?

EOB or Engineer on Board, was the cruise control 3rdrail use for over a decade before ERR.  EOB was designed by Train America Studios or TAS.  Not knowing the age of your engines, if it doesn’t have ERR it has TAS, and if it’s even earlier it as as Saw board which is none cruise.

@Engineer-Joe posted:

I didn't know much about how the CVs were changed. On the second engine, messing with the CVs on the TMCC board cured some issues.

What are CVs with respect to TMCC?

Hi Ken, not sure whether you've solved the remaining issues.  I'm not personally a fan of the EOB electronics.  Based on my personal experience and what I've read on the Forum, they aren't as reliable as some other OEM sound and control packages.  I would start budgeting for ERR or some other replacement.  The Q-4b is a great looking loco and 3rd Rail is the only one (that I know of) who attempted a scale model in 3-rail O gauge.

No, I still have both issues.  I'm focusing on other things for now.

The boards are a tight fight in the Q-4b Vanderbilt tender. It will be a challenge to substitute a different brand for one of the boards.  Ditto for the even smaller L-1 tender.  I'm also not sure how much I want to spend on the L-1 to replace the sound. Letting it sit for now. Plenty of other things to focus on.

@Ken Wing posted:

No, I still have both issues.  I'm focusing on other things for now.

The boards are a tight fight in the Q-4b Vanderbilt tender. It will be a challenge to substitute a different brand for one of the boards.  Ditto for the even smaller L-1 tender.  I'm also not sure how much I want to spend on the L-1 to replace the sound. Letting it sit for now. Plenty of other things to focus on.

If it has EOB in there now, I can assure you that the ERR setup will fit.

Thanks

@Ken Wing posted:

No, I still have both issues.  I'm focusing on other things for now.

The boards are a tight fight in the Q-4b Vanderbilt tender. It will be a challenge to substitute a different brand for one of the boards.  Ditto for the even smaller L-1 tender.  I'm also not sure how much I want to spend on the L-1 to replace the sound. Letting it sit for now. Plenty of other things to focus on.

My 3rd Rail Niagara had dead TAS SAW electronics, which I replaced with ERR.  No fit issues - the ERR stuff takes less space.  If you do a conversion, first obtain the pertinent TAS manual from GRJ's 12/12/14 post in the "sticky" TMCC/LEGACY MANUALS & MATERIALS thread on the forum TMCC page.  It will 6 help identifying all the wires.

The Q-4b manual says it has "Lionel TMCC with Railsounds 4.0" while the smoke unit is "synchronized and Temperature regulated made by TAS."  

Not sure what those mean in terms of what board are in it now compared to the recommended ERR cruise commander board.

Looking under the hood of these locos with lots of electronics is new ground for me.

@Ken Wing posted:

The Q-4b manual says it has "Lionel TMCC with Railsounds 4.0" while the smoke unit is "synchronized and Temperature regulated made by TAS."  

Not sure what those mean in terms of what board are in it now compared to the recommended ERR cruise commander board.

Looking under the hood of these locos with lots of electronics is new ground for me.

Well the smoke unit is a turbo smoke unit.  Very good smoke unit.  I’m betting EOB but if you lift the hood on the tender and take some pics, we’ll be able to identify what you have real fast.

Goof thought. Will do.

You can also peek under the locomotive skirt and see if there's a striped flywheel tape, that would also tell you it's TAS EOB.

The Q4b if original has EOB. Sometimes EOB engines like to shed their encoder tapes! Second pic shows replacement tape going on.

Here are the photos of the boards in the Q-4b 2-8-2. And yes, it has the black and white striped flywheel.

Here are the L-1 0-8-0 photos. The writing on the big chip is

1020AP

9717

P61SK031

The one with the flywheel tape is a TAS EOB TMCC board set, the other one is a conventional reverse unit, no command.

The 0-8-0 has an Ott sound board.  It is analog sound.  The 4 adjustment pots in the last photo are to adjust the voltage that chuffing begins, volume of sounds, etc.  The sound is not very good.  3rd Rail used these in some tenders that were too small for the EOB electronics.  I have a couple of 3rd Rail E6s 4-4-2's that came with Ott boards.

So, I gather the recommended approach to the Q4-b is to keep the existing sound board, but replace the other one with an ERR Cruise Commander. And for the L-1, to replace the Ott board with an ERR sound board while retaining the direction board.  Am I reading this right?

I should mention I run conventional

I have received my ERR Cruise Commander kit and Railsounds kit from Sunset. They come with no instructions.

What installation advice can you offer to someone who hasn't worked with boards like this before?

Complete installation manuals are on the ERR site.

http://www.3rdrail.com/err-3rdrail/index.html

Thanks!

I guess you can tell this forum is my go to for help. If I had put my brain in gear, I might have suspected online manuals and investigated.

Looks like an adventure!