Tell us your experiences with operating postwar Lionel Alco FA locos?

I have the grey 2032 units and while they are well worn they have run for many hours at train day displays with no problems. I really like them.

The cast frame units are good runners.  I like to run two powered A's back to back rather than one power unit and a dummy.

quote:

One thing I've wondered about: is it possible to put two power trucks in an FA? Were any made that way originally?  

 

Another question, how good are the traction tires and has anyone tried substituting solid wheels and still achieved adequate pulling power?

I have never seen any postwar alcos converted to have two motors. Doing a conversion would required a great deal of creative design and custom work.

I've never had a problem with postwar tire traction.

The trucks on tire traction alcos and switchers are not designed to come apart. You would need to either remove the sideframes (riveted), and or  remove the lower motor section (staked) to get to the wheels for removal.

Without the traction tire(s), the engine probably wouldn't pull much at all.

There are three basic motors / truck that were used:

Diecast truck with seperate motor

sheet metal truck, armature's lower bearing at bottom of the truck

sheet metal truck, armature's lower bearing between armature head and gear box

Once you get to the third motor type, there are a bunch of variations. Some of the motors only have one driven axle. Some motors do not have any axle bushings. On these, the axles rub directly against the sheet metal truck frame, and can get quite sloppy.

The first motor/truck type (diecast) runs great.

The second motor/truck type can have problems caused by the lower bearing loosening up, causing the gears to bind. Once the problem is addressed, I think they run fine. They are probably more noisy than the diecast ones, and probably will not pull as much.

The third motor/truck type generally runs OK. No binding problem. But watch for the configuration. Off the top of my head, I don't know whether any of these were made with magnetraction.  Once again, they are probably more noisy than the diecast frame ones, and won't pull as much.

I like them all.

My favorite diesels to run are my 2023 yellow UPs. These have the cast frames mentioned above, and run very well. They can pull a train long enough to look silly on my smallish layout.

On my particular set, the dummy unit's coil coupler fires on some of my switches. So I run the pair with the powered unit trailing, and all is good. My understanding is that running them like that helps with pulling the load as well.

I'll also agree that they look better than F3s pulling 6464  boxcars or 2400 series passenger cars

J White

The UP 2023 and immediate cousins (Erie and Rock Island) are some of the best locos Lionel had made.  Not so much the later variations.

As always, lots of good technical info in this thread.  My input comes from the "casual operators" viewpoint:

I have had both the die cast frame and the stamped frame models.  The die cast are better in overall quality, however the stamped frame models that I had were fine runners and pulled decent sized trains. (Especially if the cars had recent vintage needle point trucks under them. i.e. like the 6464 re-issues.)

I have also had the stamped frames with both the 3-position and 2-position reversing units.  I prefer the 3-position, but there is no particular reason why.

The stamped versions can be picked up at auction sites very reasonably priced and could be a nice repaint candidate for projects such as an SP&S set. 

Be aware that the stamped frame versions sit quite a bit taller than the die cast frame versions.  Thus, the overall "look" is more "boxy" looking.  I didn't find that a turn-off (it WAS a toy train, after all) but some do.  If possible you may want to find a picture that compare them side by side.

Either way... they're neat little engines!  Have fun!

Andre

I collected \ run the colorful MPC era FA units (which I do not know if they qualify for the term "post war') What I found on the MPC variations ( aside from generally lower purchase cost) is a lack of tight tolerances in the gearing which makes them noisier than most and also effects the motor strain on pulling heavier consists. A product called "Liquid Bearings" that is plastic safe really improved the performance in terms of noise reduction and pulling power. This is the same lubricant I use on Marx gearing. As a work around, I lock the E units in forward and run two units together, much like the prototype. What this took was a replacement of the fixed ( closed) couplers which also have too much play built into them. After the replacement of them, pull aparts vanished in double heading.  I was surprised at the amount of variation the Lionel FA's had, even in the MPC era. I want to finish the third example I have to see how well a threesome will pull together..No software required.

I posted these pictures some time ago on another Alco thread.  It seems some have forgotten them.  It is possible to dual motor a unit.  It pulls as well as any other Lionel postwar dual motor engine.

Custom painted early die cast framed Alco 2023, A-B-A.  The center mounted sliding shoe works the front coupler.  The trickiest part was adding the pickup rollers.  After much trail and error I got it right.  This ABA runs easily on everything I've put it on.

There are two versions, the 2000 series and later 200 series has already stated. the early 2000 version from 1950 to 1953 are great runners and have the loudest horns in the postwar diesel series. The later series from 1957 on, not so much. I have all but 2 of the later series. They run well enough after some tinkering with the power truck usually. These were starter set engines for the most part and will pull the trainset they came with and 2-3 extra cars. The best amoung the 200 series as far as operation are: 204 and 208 Santa Fe (Blue and Yellow freight colors),  205 Missouri Pacific, 209 New Haven, 210 Texas Special, 216 Burlington, 217 and 226 Boston and Maine, 218 and 220 Santa Fe (Passenger colors).

 It would be near impossible to add a second motor to the powered unit.

The 2023 and similar often have worn out axle bushings and the wheels rub the magnets or frames, depending on which type. When buying these check for that. I have recently seen two of them that did it. I would ask the seller to remove the shell so you can see.

Rob

This extensive feedback is most interesting! Thank You all!

Back in the '70's I had a set of alcos in the NYC paint and another set in the Sa nta Fe paint, both were 2023 types with a rear motor added for 2 motors in each unit. Both were bears on pulling as they out pulled my F-3 every time. Then like a "kid" I traded them for 3 sets of FM's that I wanted. Some body somewhere is probably still running "my" engines, why LIONEL never double motored this type I will never know as I wrote them and sent them pics of my units, now I have no units or pics, I'm a sad   duck.

Rod

I have recently acquired some postwar Lionel FA locos. Mechanically they are all somewhat different:

212 ATSF:  2-axle drive with 2 traction tires, 2-position E-unit, horn

212 ATSF:  matching dummy unit

1055 Texas Special:  2-axle drive with NO traction tires, NO E-unit

2024 C&O:  1-axle drive with one traction tire, 3-position E-unit

I think they will all run OK after routine cleaning and service and misc minor repairs. I can't be sure that the shells are matched with original frames and hardware. None of these have Magne-Traction. It's slightly interesting to note that the 2024 C&O unit was made in 1969, the last year for the original Lionel company.

One question, does anyone know if the plastic truck sideframes can be removed from the metal truck frame of un-powered trucks? I may want to disassemble them to clean up the roller contact seats. One truck is slightly melted around the roller pickup seat, one unit is missing a roller pickup, and one roller pickup broke on me when I removed it for cleaning.

Look closely at the motor trucks on your 212, 1055, and 2024. I think you will find that the 212 has bronze axle bearings, while the 1055 and 2024 do not.

ON the 1055 and 2024 the axle is in direct contact with the sheet metal frame of the truck. I suggest being careful to keep that area properly lubricated.

The front truck on the 1055 and 2024 should come apart. I think the 212 front truck is the same type, but I am not positive.

These trucks have two main pieces.

The plastic body has pockets for the axles molded into the backs of the decorative sideframes. The bottom is designed to hold the collector arms.

A fairly simple sheet metal frame is pressed into the top.

I take these apart by using a flat screwdriver to lever the sheet metal top away from the plastic body. I work a little at a time, using all four wheels (one at a time) as a fulcrum. Pay attention to the orientation of the sheet metal plate. It is not symetrical, and only goes back one way.

Look at the sheet metal where the axle rubs against it. Sometimes there is quite a bit of wear there that eventually allows the wheels to rub on the plastic part of the truck.

You will see that the collector arms are held in place by a metal plate that rides on a tubular rivet, and is pressed down with a spring.

The only way I know of to get those arms off is to cut the rivet.

Fortunately, my local hardware store has suitable replacement rivets.

I reuse the spring and all the other parts.

I have a pair of Rock Islands that I bought off the forum and it has running issues with the e unit.  Will donate for the postage. 

WB,

I'll gladly take the Rock Islands off your hands.  My email is in my profile.

I pulled this quote from p.61 of Greenberg's Guide to Lionel Trains 1945-1969 Volume I:  Motive Power and Rolling Stock.

"In operation and quality of construction, the 200-series introduced in 1957 was a far cry from the earlier models; by 1959, the Alco clearly was a poor cousin to its predecessors. 

Based on that, I'd stick with the 4-digit, 2000-series Union Pacific, Erie, or Rock Island versions.

Ace,

We run both a 200 series (218 Santa Fe) and 2023 UP.  One of our 218's has hundreds of hours of run time from the early 60's to the early 70's.  It then sat in a box in an unheated garage for about 20+ years.  I've recently finished a complete rebuild and rehabilitation of this engine for my 10 year year old daughter.  It's now a hot candy floss pink and runs like better than new.  I wondered why Lionel never made a girls diesel set.  I think it would have outsold the steamer many times to one.

Our pink 218 has two axle magnetraction, horn, and solid couplers.  Yes the front pilot was destroyed from end to end, but I used the Alco Nose Support bracket to replace it.  I did not like the look of the botttom bar (too flat) so I added a curved piece of 1/2 round plastic stock to it and faired the ends to the shell with Squadron Green putty. 

The photos below clearly show the difference.

I've also got another 218 set (ABA) which has intact pilots on both A units and the power unit is currently on the workbench being re-wired and having the e-unit rebuilt.  I love the look of the 200 series simply because they represent my first experience with Lionel trains.

My 2023 was a basket case picked up from an auction site and is currently on the workbench.  I bought it because of some comments that I had read regarding these

as exceptional runners. 

Many Thanks for all the feedback and info on the FA locos.

I took the plastic sideframes off the unpowered front trucks of a couple units, using Burfle's pointers. I need to clean up the retainers for the center rail pickups so they make better contact, and replace or straighten damaged roller pickups. The photo shows the plastic sideframes removed from the metal truck frame.

Trainfun is correct, the Texas Special has a metal weight attached inside the back end of the plastic body shell. It's interesting that you remember your Texas Special set having an AirEx boxcar, because I happened to get an AirEx boxcar along with this bunch of Alcos. I notice this Texas Special unit lacks a fuel tank like my other FA's.

The 212 powered unit also had an interior weight, but it was laying loose inside.

I'll be glad to get some of these operating because they will go well with my "traditional" O-gauge items. As a retired diesel tech, I should have more diesel power on the railroad!

LooneyTunes, that's a nifty repair job on the pilot. I'm fortunate that my body shells are relatively intact.

I guess the earlier FA's with die-cast frames are considered to be better units, but what I have are the later stamped-frame units.

My 2024 has a worn-out 3-position E-unit and single-axle drive with one traction tire, which I suspect were swapped out of another unit. Tandem Associates says the 2024's originally had two-axle drive and 2-position E-unit.

WBB seems to have classic sized FA/FB units.  I think they are 2 motors.  A way to get the PW look with a newer unit.

The early ones are super-duper pullers and show true craftsmanship.

Alan

quote:

My 2024 has a worn-out 3-position E-unit and single-axle drive with one traction tire, which I suspect were swapped out of another unit. Tandem Associates says the 2024's originally had two-axle drive and 2-position E-unit.

If the motor has a double wound field it is correct for your 2024 engine. It should have a two position e-unit.

Off the top of my head, I cannot state with any certainty whether is also came with two axle drive. I'd have to look into it.
It is very common to find those late Alco shells on the wrong chassis because they are easily swapped. At one time it was very common for folks to put together pieces from several engines to make one good one. The locos were generally not considered collectable at the time, and few paid attention to the chassis variations.
The problem is worse with 2024 and 2041 locos because Lionel released a large quantity of these shells in the early 1970's.

Also, a large number of unfinished 2041 shells were liberated from Madison Hardware somewhere along the line. So 2041 Rock Islands without their lettering are not scarce, and are not factory errors, as some folks believe.

Mr Burfle, thanks for pointing out the wiring differences. That's interesting.

I note that my non-reversing 1055 unit has a heavier-gauge single-winding in the motor field. The 212 and 2024 have smaller gauge double-wound motor fields, evidenced by different color wires wound together. On the 2024 with a 3-position E-unit, the small wires for the field winding are connected together at both ends. On the 212 with a 2-position E-unit, one end of the motor field windings are connected together and the other ends go to separate terminals in the E-unit.

As I understand it, the 3-position E-unit serves as a DPDT switch to reverse the motor field winding. The 2-position E-unit serves as a SPDT switch, which only works with the double-wound motor field to energize a different winding for each direction.

Both of my E-units need work. I'm thinking that I would prefer to replace the E-units with manual reversing switches.

I have two of my three powered FA units serviced and operational. They run well and manage O27 curves easily. They aren't heavy-haulers, but I could MU them. The E-units still need work and I will probably install manual reversing switches eventually. The Texas Special unit was originally forward-only operation with no E-unit.

One thing that I hadn't expected, these FA units are still big enough to make my O27 boxcars look undersized. It's less noticeable if I don't put the boxcars directly behind the locos.

The 2024 C&O unit has only a single-axle drive, which is a sad commentary on how cheap Lionel got in the 1960's. It will be operational when I find a replacement center-rail pickup for it.

One thing to remember is those O27 boxcars are actually 3/16"(or 1:64) scale, way undersized for O no matter how you slice it (Good enough for S Scale conversions, though...)

Lionel O27 S Scale conversion & American models boxcar 

A 6464 boxcar looks just fine behind the Alco's however.  A train with the Alco's made up of 6464's and other appropriate sized cars can look surprisingly realistic.

Rusty

Wow Rusty... I had forgotten how nice your O27 to S conversions are.  That looks great.

Andre

I have the original 212 (A-A units). I wasn't impressed with the plastic trucks, the engines in general are light weight. They don't pull so well, 2 tires on the powered unit but no mangetracion. There is a weight inside, but do the the fact there's only one motor and the unit is light they just don't pull well. They run very smoothly and quietly. I need to replace the brushes the original brushes were in horrible shape when I picked the engine up. 

I still have an AA set of the Missouri Pacific blue Alcos 200 series from the late 50s.  I grew up watching these go around the family Christmas layout in the 60s and beyond.   While not as smooth running or built as solidly as the earlier 2000 series, they still work just fine with a little cleaning and lubrication.  The e-unit buzz is pretty loud, but when I was a kid I didn't care.  I actually liked it.  Also, I found the power unit produced ozone like no other locomotive I've ever owned.   That can't be a bad thing, and blue is my favorite color!

Rick, Mpls.

Anything from '57 onward has an exploding motor...just the thing for you exploding boxcar fans !

A fellow forumite made me a great deal on a #2041 Rock Island FA set by Lionel 1969. Cosmetically it's in great shape. The E-unit needs work and it has only a single-axle drive, a sad commentary on Lionel's decline in mechanical quality back then. 

What I can do with my assorted FA units is swap shells around and have an AT&SF set and a RI set of back-to-back powered units, two powered axles in one unit and one powered axle on the second unit of each set, to get some respectable pulling power. I will probably put manual reversing center-off switches in all my FA's; I'm not a fan of the conventional E-unit operation. Manual switches will make it easier to run multiple powered units together.

I replaced the two traction tires on my powered AT&SF unit, which improves the pulling power.

Some guys like to point out that the earlier FA's with die-cast frames are considered to be better locos, but I'll quite happy with my units. It puts my Lionel trains era solidly into the steam-to-diesel transition era of the 1950's!

When I first started this thread I hadn't expected to end up with a full roster of FA's !

I had bought a powered and dummy 220 Alco pair, and the loco wouldn't pull three cars and the dummy. I was experimenting, and the powered A would pull 6-8 cars alone, but if you put the dummy on the track, it wouldn't roll at all. The journals of the side frames were worn, and the flanges of the wheels were dragging on the top of the trucks. I rebushed the bearing area using brass tubing, and it works much better. I also have a 229 A-B, and a 2032 A-A, all of which run well. These are neat, and an inexpensive way to grow your collection. 

ACE: Those 2041's are sometimes found with a single driven axle, as yours has, and sometimes found with two driven axles. (I think they left the factory in both configuraitons)

Folks commonly swapped shells and chassis on those locos, so all sorts of combinations turn up.

quote:

The journals of the side frames were worn, and the flanges of the wheels were dragging on the top of the trucks.

The top of the journal is nothing more than the edge of the truck's metal top plate. This is one area where MPC made an improvement on the postwar design. MPC folded over the edge of the top plate, providing a larger bearing surface that should wear less.
When I service an Alco, I like to disassemble the dummy truck, and grease those journals with Labelle #106.

Tell us your experiences with operating postwar Lionel Alco FA locos?

My only "experience" is trying to find one.  I've been looking for a really nice 2032 for ages.

I received my yellow UP 2023 AA set as a kid.  Long ago I found that running with the dummy in front seemed to provide better pulling power plus also minimized derailments.  When running with the powered unit in front the light-weight dummy would often derail during backing through O27 switches due to heavy cars such as the milk car or dump cars in the consist.

HTH,

Bill 

I've worked over my four powered FA units by removing the E-units and installing SPDT center-off switches for manual reversing control, which makes the units easy to MU in different combinations. Except one unit had a single-winding field; that needed a DPDT switch. I have the substitute switches lined up to poke out the roof slot for the E-unit levers.

My FA's are the later Postwar versions with stamped metal frames. After servicing and minor repairs, they all run pretty well and I'm happy with them!

Great post.   These are my favorite engines.   I recently got the UP alcos from 1993 and also are great runners.

Interesting and timely topic for me.  Never owned one of these models before, as I generally prefer the look of a GP or SD on my trains.  However, the M&Stl 213 & 216 Alcos were the only M&StL locos made by Lionel that I didn't own, so I figured I'd track a set down.

When I saw the Alco had been 'reissued' in 2010 as an AB set (the 6-38334 Alco Orbiter Diesel Freight Set) I figured a modern version with updated conventional electronics would be better than paying a premium for a top notch PW set.

Got the 2010 version brand new from a set breakup recently, and it's not the stellar performer I was hoping for--it's quite loud when running and needs a good 10V to get a 6-8 car consist underway.  No slow speeds whatsoever.  Paint and detail is strikingly sparse (subjective, of course).

I know this thread is about the PW, but I thought it was worth mentioning that personally I can't give the modern version a huge thumbs up.  I was expecting "postwar power plus 25% more awesomeness" and it's just not really there.

Not to mention I can't find any evidence M&StL ever owned one of these, but that's another issue.  

As I recall, some of the locomotives from the Orbitor set required tweaking to run properly. There were folks who reported having problems, and others who wrote that their engines were perfect right out of the box. I don't own the set. 

Regardless, I suggest you try searching this board (perhaps for "orbitor") to find the engine tweaks.

Ams,

If you like Alcos, I would also try a set made by Williams.  They feature the heavy die cast chassis and run very smoothly - like the heavy duty Lionel post war versions.  I also have an Amtrak MPC Lionel Alco that runs fine, but it is not as nice as the Williams version.  IIRC, Pat's sells Williams Alco AA sets for about $150 or so.